Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Spritz]

perhaps adding some immortals at spawn.

 

[BenZL43]

In 600AD
Please add some buildings and their UB to the cities belonging to civs like Rome, India or Egypt
And harbor to all coastal cities, making them more valuable
With additional :
Glass-- Phoenician UB-- to the cities like Hesperides etc, and increase to 2 population so AI Arab won't automatically raze the city upon conquest
Obelisk to Egyptian cities..
Ball Court to Mayan cities..
Persian UB to Persian cities
Madrassa and University to Al-Qahira, making it the center of education during that Arab Golden Ages..

 

[Leoreth]

The problem is, as far as I know these buildings will be converted to their standard counterpart on conquest anyway.

 

[J. pride]

Leoreth, The Seljuks look good but a couple of suggestions:

-As far as their conquest is considered, you did everything spot-on. Really nice way of handling things.

A few screenshots and comments below:

Is that supposed to happen on 600 ad spawn? What purpose does it serve if it is intentional?


The conquest look great but:

-You should probably have the Seljuks spread Islam on conquest and possibly even remove all other religions. This is historical but more importantly as you can see cities like Merv, Shiraz and Samarkand still dont have Islam without which the Seljuk invasion might not have taken place in the first place.

-The population looks pretty rundown. Later when the Mongol Conqests started no city had a population of more than two. I don't know how it happened nor if the population of a city declines after the Seljuk Conquests, but something should be done to stop this. Weak cities will inevitably effect the Safavids and the Ottomans.

-It seems like Samarkand either did not flip or got conquered by the barbs. In the case that it was not conquered you should include it; and if it was conquered by barbs, we agreed that barbs need to be removed since they represent Turks anyways.



As mentioned before, AI Byzantine should get a special feature where it retain Constantinople and Athens even in a civil war. This would be a human style collapse only with 2 cities.

Btw: Look at the Germans top left corner, they are not there to just say Hi.


The Mongol Conquests:

-Should probably start 1-2 turns earlier.
-It seems that you only instated a single spawn for the Mongols, did my idea for a Mesopotamian/Syrian spawn not work out?

-Also the Seljuks should collapse after their capital is conquered or else you are going to have situations where the Seljuks are going to continue to live on in Arabia or Jerusalem. The Seljuks should collapse shortly after Persia is conquered from them.

 

[AOS9001]

As mentioned before, AI Byzantine should get a special feature where it retain Constantinople and Athens even in a civil war. This would be a human style collapse only with 2 cities.

I can't second this more. That way, the Ottomans won't be able to walk in and take everything.

 

[BenZL43]

The problem is, as far as I know these buildings will be converted to their standard counterpart on conquest anyway.

Ah...


Then, how about just adding harbors and increasing their city population by 1?

 

[Leoreth]

Leoreth, The Seljuks look good but a couple of suggestions:

-As far as their conquest is considered, you did everything spot-on. Really nice way of handling things.

Yeah, credit goes to Linkman mainly, I adapted his dates and made their first wave (1040) a little more dynamic (independent cities flip, army strength depends on how much other cities there are), and balanced their armies a bit.

A few screenshots and comments below:
View attachment 305295
Is that supposed to happen on 600 ad spawn? What purpose does it serve if it is intentional?

Haha, thanks for posting this. I always ran Portugal starts to see how the Seljuks perform and couldn't for the life of me figure out why they always conquered Kashgar and Dunhuang although I specifically forbid them to do so. Now it's obvious (it's not intended)

-You should probably have the Seljuks spread Islam on conquest and possibly even remove all other religions. This is historical but more importantly as you can see cities like Merv, Shiraz and Samarkand still dont have Islam without which the Seljuk invasion might not have taken place in the first place.

Right, wanted to do that, thanks for reminding me.

-The population looks pretty rundown. Later when the Mongol Conqests started no city had a population of more than two. I don't know how it happened nor if the population of a city declines after the Seljuk Conquests, but something should be done to stop this. Weak cities will inevitably effect the Safavids and the Ottomans.

I've imported Linkman's protection for Middle Eastern cities when conquered by Seljuks and assumed it worked (never actually witnessed a city getting conquered by them, though). Are you sure about this?

What also could be the problem is that they don't get workers at start, which they should to improve the land around them.

-It seems like Samarkand either did not flip or got conquered by the barbs. In the case that it was not conquered you should include it; and if it was conquered by barbs, we agreed that barbs need to be removed since they represent Turks anyways.

Yeah, will be in again, but it's hard to exactly locate which barb spawns cause the attacks there.

As mentioned before, AI Byzantine should get a special feature where it retain Constantinople and Athens even in a civil war. This would be a human style collapse only with 2 cities.

It's probably for the best.

The Mongol Conquests:

-Should probably start 1-2 turns earlier.
-It seems that you only instated a single spawn for the Mongols, did my idea for a Mesopotamian/Syrian spawn not work out?

The spawn date is a little randomized iirc. And I didn't try another spot to be honest. Do you see problems with them pushing into Syria?

-Also the Seljuks should collapse after their capital is conquered or else you are going to have situations where the Seljuks are going to continue to live on in Arabia or Jerusalem. The Seljuks should collapse shortly after Persia is conquered from them.

Yeah, the problem is more, as you might have noticed, the Seljuks don't necessarily have a capital. Out of those cities usually present in the middle east, which should it be? I already made them declare Tebriz their capital when they conquer it but even that isn't always there.

 

[J. pride]

Haha, thanks for posting this. I always ran Portugal starts to see how the Seljuks perform and couldn't for the life of me figure out why they always conquered Kashgar and Dunhuang although I specifically forbid them to do so. Now it's obvious (it's not intended)

lol

I've imported Linkman's protection for Middle Eastern cities when conquered by Seljuks and assumed it worked (never actually witnessed a city getting conquered by them, though). Are you sure about this?

To be honest, I only ran one test as i didnt have much time. This could be a one time thing so Ill check it out in detail over the weekend and let you know

Yeah, will be in again, but it's hard to exactly locate which barb spawns cause the attacks there.

Ill keep an eye on the WB when I play a game as China or Arabia.

The spawn date is a little randomized iirc. And I didn't try another spot to be honest. Do you see problems with them pushing into Syria?

Its not so much of a problem of them flipping into Syria as it is that by the time they do the Ottomans have already spawned. I would want the Mongols to be done with their Middle Eastern conquest by the time the Ottomans spawn since I dont want it to have an adverse or ahistorical affect on the Ottomans. This is one of those opinion things, you might not agree with me on this. Think about it and do as you see best.

Yeah, the problem is more, as you might have noticed, the Seljuks don't necessarily have a capital. Out of those cities usually present in the middle east, which should it be? I already made them declare Tebriz their capital when they conquer it but even that isn't always there.

Well Merv was their first capital but if you would like something that doesnt flip to the Mongols then Isfahan would be a good choice (since it was their later capital). There are a few ways of implementing this; you could spawn it, give Seljuks a settler, make Arabs settle it etc...

 

[Leoreth]

Its not so much of a problem of them flipping into Syria as it is that by the time they do the Ottomans have already spawned. I would want the Mongols to be done with their Middle Eastern conquest by the time the Ottomans spawn since I dont want it to have an adverse or ahistorical affect on the Ottomans. This is one of those opinion things, you might not agree with me on this. Think about it and do as you see best.

Good point.

Well Merv was their first capital but if you would like something that doesnt flip to the Mongols then Isfahan would be a good choice (since it was their later capital). There are a few ways of implementing this; you could spawn it, give Seljuks a settler, make Arabs settle it etc...

Isfahan seems like a good choice, then.

 

[oyh]

Its not so much of a problem of them flipping into Syria as it is that by the time they do the Ottomans have already spawned. I would want the Mongols to be done with their Middle Eastern conquest by the time the Ottomans spawn since I dont want it to have an adverse or ahistorical affect on the Ottomans. This is one of those opinion things, you might not agree with me on this. Think about it and do as you see best.

As long as the Timurid conquests are not represented as an event separate from the Mongolian spawn, the Mongols SHOULD affect the Ottoman buid-up. Note that, in history, the Ottoman dynasty was very close to collapse after having been severly defeated by Timur! It could have collapsed as well - leaving more centuries to Byzantinum.

 

[River guard]

hmm I still believe that china should at least have historical claim(stability map yellow) on region around Dunhuang (also western toward urumuqi), consider the fact that china established rule there as early as 60 bc and its not like those regions are fertile or anything..

 

[J. pride]

As long as the Timurid conquests are not represented as an event separate from the Mongolian spawn, the Mongols SHOULD affect the Ottoman buid-up. Note that, in history, the Ottoman dynasty was very close to collapse after having been severly defeated by Timur! It could have collapsed as well - leaving more centuries to Byzantinum.

Currently, I would like to remind you that the Mongols are not that much of a threat to the Ottomans whether whether the Mongol Conquest is delayed or not. What I was merely suggesting was that the Mongol Conquest hasten up a bit. This does not mean that the Mongols cannot go to war with the Turks. On the contrary, it means a greater chance of war between the two sides because if the Mongol conquests are faster, they would actually be able to capture territory valuable to the Turks before the Turks spawn thus creating a war on spawn. If the Mongol conquests are delayed there is a good chance that they will never be able to conquer Syria, Anatolia or the Levant as the Ottomans will get there first. No matter which way you look at it, the results that you stated will not occur unless outside factors are edited; but putting that aside making the Mongol conquests faster will have certain advantages such as better historical accuracy, greater chance of war with the Turk etc...

Back to your query about the Timurids, I have already suggested to Leoreth and Linkman (Creator of Synthesis) to add the Timurids as a Seljuk respawn if the Mongols conquer the Middle East. This makes sense since both powers were of similar origin, similar geography, similar goal etc. Whether Leoreth and Linkman are interested in the idea is yet to be seen but thus far there hasnt been any negative reception (or positive on for that matter).

 

[Leoreth]

I think the problem with the Timurids is that they are yet another civ that's going to ravage the Middle East; imo they would only make things even more hasty and messy.

 

[Linkman226]

There are two issues with the way I prevented Middle Eastern population decimation:

1) A bug, fixed in my working revision, that results in indestructible buildings being destroyed.

2) Doesn't stop the population losses from the loss of working plots post conquest due to culture recession.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, I'll have a look into (1). But I gave the Seljuks Turkey's UP to avoid (2).

 

[J. pride]

I think the problem with the Timurids is that they are yet another civ that's going to ravage the Middle East; imo they would only make things even more hasty and messy.

You do have a very good point there. I do have an idea on how we can rightly implement. The fact of the matter is that a large part of the "Seljuk" civilization I spearheaded in Synthesis was the inclusion of the Timurids/Illkhanate. The way I envisioned the Timurid Civilization was less so as another Barbarian Invasion and more so as a successor state to the Mongols; here is my idea layed out:

When and How will they Spawn:
-In whatever date between 1300-1400 ad if the following conditions are met:
1) The Seljuks are dead.
2) The Mongols control Persia, Mesopotamia and Central Asia.
-As a successor state to the Mongol Empire the civilization would flip all of the Mongol holdings in the Middle East Central Asian region.

What will this accomplish:
-They will destabilize the Mongols.
-Fill Central Asia for the first time.
-This will be great for the Safavids; as now their UHV will really be challanging and interesting.
-Random civs will not conquer Central Asia rather there will be a civilization which can eventually be conquered by Russia.
-Add flavour and diversity to the region.

I rough timeline and the civs that they will represent:
-The latter half of the Ilkhanate (after conversion to Islam in 1300 ad) and the Timurid Dynasty.
-Once Safavids declare independence they will be stuck to Central Asia and thus play the role of the Khanate of Bukhara.
-This is pretty historical as when the Timurids lost hold of their southern and eastern holding; they essentially descended into civil war. After the strife, the Khanate of Bukhara emerged victorious.
-By the Industrial age, the civ would be finished off by Russia or Persia.

 

[Leoreth]

What I could think of is using the Seljuk player to represent Timurids as a left-over of collapsed Mongolia in the Middle East and Central Asia.

 

[Linkman226]

[Delete]

 

[Spritz]

As for mongols in Turkey,

I have played a couple of Byzantium games and i most of them I meet mongols around 1250. A few turns later they march in with around 10 keshiks and these are all converted to turkey. I dont think the latter is very good since that provides turkey with too much starting units and thus disbalancing the game

 

[Tigranes]

Mouse over Info say that Keshiks have flanking effect against Cats and Trebs, but they do no flanking damage...