Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[iOnlySignIn]

I still think Prussia's greatest problem is HRE founding Warsaw. Loading a Prussian game and seeing Warsaw is like seeing a giant tumor in an X-ray photograph of your brain.

I also don't know if the "Settle 7 GPs in Berlin" requirement is like France's Paris UHV (where you HAVE to found Paris on the spot) or the Dutch/Turkish UHV (where you can put your Capital anywhere). Forgive me for saying but Berlin's current tile is a ridiculous location for a Captial/uber-city. 1 tile away from River and 1 tile away from Coast, with overlaps from other cities on each and every side - why would any sane player found their capital there by choice?

I think a solution is map modification and/or changing the UHV to "have 7 settled GPs in your capital". The latter one will give the interesting option of moving the Palace to Frankfort/Wien - if the Ottomans can have fun moving their Capital, so can the Prussians.

Historically speaking, the Teutonic/Prussian/German capital was Königsberg for a very long time. As it is now with the map, Königsberg is a much better spot for a supercity than Berlin.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Also, re: Redcoats, the +25% vs. Gunpowder is useless against the enemies which England wishes to conquer (Mughal/India, Natives/Aztec/Inca, Egypt). Instead, all it does is make the American Revolution unrealistically difficult.

A CGI/II, Fortified Redcoat is unassailable even by Pentagon pumped Infantry. That simply should NOT be the case. I hated that even in BTS, since England (with Elizabeth) should have tech lead all game and you will be using your Redcoats against Maces Muskets and Pikes anyway.

I once again suggest my Redcoat tweak: make it do Collateral damage (very useful against giant Mughal stacks) instead of +25% vs. Gunpowder. Perhaps make it require different, more relevant tech, like Conquistador does.

The American UU should be Minuteman: Rifleman who starts with March, and upgradable into Infantry/Machine Gun/Marine.

 

[BenZL43]

I don't get it.
What's the problem with Warsaw?
They represent the Polish, right?

Or should her position moved?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

City placement.

With Frankfort, Hamburg, Wien, AND Warsaw, Berlin will be able to work 6~8 tiles total. And it's supposedly a supercity you are to settle 7 GPs in. It's the same problem that plagues a variety of Civ IV based WWII simulators - Germany does not have enough Lebensraum to be effective (which is highly ironic IMO).

RFCE has a mechanism to deal with closely packed cities resulting from late civ spawns. Any foreign city (Warsaw in this example) too close to the spawn tile of a new civ (Berlin in this example) is reduced to a Town improvement.

The same problem exists for France. The UHV forces you to found Paris in place - there is absolutely no reason to do it otherwise. A city on the coast is infinitely more preferable.

Spain is luckier. Generally speaking, Human controlled Spain should NEVER found Madrid. Done correctly you can cover the entire Iberian peninsula with 4~5 coastal cities, including Lisboa.

 

[BenZL43]

City placement.

With Frankfort, Hamburg, Wien, AND Warsaw, Berlin will be able to work 6~8 tiles total. And it's supposedly a supercity you are to settle 7 GPs in. It's the same problem that plagues a variety of Civ IV based WWII simulators - Germany does not have enough Lebensraum to be effective (which is highly ironic IMO).

Ah! I see
So it's because the 7GP UHV

RFCE has a mechanism to deal with closely packed cities resulting from late civ spawns. Any foreign city (Warsaw in this example) too close to the spawn tile of a new civ (Berlin in this example) is reduced to a Town improvement.

Leoreth, if you read this post, can you use this mechanic for the Khmer Vs Thai?

The same problem exists for France. The UHV forces you to found Paris in place - there is absolutely no reason to do it otherwise. A city on the coast is infinitely more preferable.

I think the UHV needs to be redone to be more general and less deterministic, like "Have a city with x culture in x AD", so it doesn't have to be Paris.. don't you think so?

Spain is luckier. Generally speaking, Human controlled Spain should NEVER found Madrid. Done correctly you can cover the entire Iberian peninsula with 4~5 coastal cities, including Lisboa.

True. Barcelona + Valencia + Cadiz + Lisbon + Santiago...

 

[Leoreth]

eh...I think German could be strengthened in many aspects.

First,the starting units is too few.I think it needs 6 riflemen,4 carvalies and 5 cannons at least.

Second,chemistry and Scientific Method should be in starting tech

That's maybe too much. I don't want you to be able to steamroll your neighbors in the 18th century with your starting units (what you propose enables you to take Austria without danger).

Third,the second UHV may exclude England,cause German has never controlled England in whole history.

I think this goal less represents the houses of Hanover and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as Tomorrow's Dawn suggested, but rather Operation Sea Lion. The whole German conquest goals have a "what if Germany was successful in the world wars?" idea behind it, and England should be definitely part of it. Plus, conducting a naval invasion is fun.

Last,I think the mod rfc civs in abundance could be a reference.When Prussia spawn,some Holy Roman culture will turn into Prussian culture.

That already happens through their city flip.

I still think Prussia's greatest problem is HRE founding Warsaw. Loading a Prussian game and seeing Warsaw is like seeing a giant tumor in an X-ray photograph of your brain.

True, it's a reason to restart the game which is annoying considering the loading times. I'll better prevent HRE from settling there.

I also don't know if the "Settle 7 GPs in Berlin" requirement is like France's Paris UHV (where you HAVE to found Paris on the spot) or the Dutch/Turkish UHV (where you can put your Capital anywhere). Forgive me for saying but Berlin's current tile is a ridiculous location for a Captial/uber-city. 1 tile away from River and 1 tile away from Coast, with overlaps from other cities on each and every side - why would any sane player found their capital there by choice?

I think a solution is map modification and/or changing the UHV to "have 7 settled GPs in your capital". The latter one will give the interesting option of moving the Palace to Frankfort/Wien - if the Ottomans can have fun moving their Capital, so can the Prussians.

Historically speaking, the Teutonic/Prussian/German capital was Königsberg for a very long time. As it is now with the map, Königsberg is a much better spot for a supercity than Berlin.

The wording of the goal is intentional - as you said, it's the same reason as with Paris, to make you found a historical capital even if it's suboptimal. But there's no reason for Berlin to be a great city, after all, since you can farm your GPs elsewhere too.

Another reason is balancing - other cities often have quite a lot GPs settled already, which can be easily exploitable, so I needed to make sure you really have to settle 7 GPs into a new city. In my last game, Paris had 6 prophets already.

I thought about spawning another food resource close to Berlin, though, to make it a little more viable.

Also, re: Redcoats, the +25% vs. Gunpowder is useless against the enemies which England wishes to conquer (Mughal/India, Natives/Aztec/Inca, Egypt). Instead, all it does is make the American Revolution unrealistically difficult.

A CGI/II, Fortified Redcoat is unassailable even by Pentagon pumped Infantry. That simply should NOT be the case. I hated that even in BTS, since England (with Elizabeth) should have tech lead all game and you will be using your Redcoats against Maces Muskets and Pikes anyway.

I once again suggest my Redcoat tweak: make it do Collateral damage (very useful against giant Mughal stacks) instead of +25% vs. Gunpowder. Perhaps make it require different, more relevant tech, like Conquistador does.

The American UU should be Minuteman: Rifleman who starts with March, and upgradable into Infantry/Machine Gun/Marine.

Good point. The gunpowder advantage could also be changed into a bonus against Riflemen, but collateral damage is also nice.

 

[strijder20]

I've got a few questions about stability.

-What buildings influence stability? Courthouses and bureaus do, but do agencies and jails influence it too?

-What determines what cities you keep after collapse? Because I just collapsed as Rome, and was surprised to see Mediolanum become indie (core) and Athens stay mine (contested).

-Does surplus health/happiness influence stability?

 

[Leoreth]

1) You get extra stability from Jails, Courthouses, Intelligence Agencies and Security Bureaus, however, you need to be below 20, 0, -40 and -10 respectively for it to take effect. The bonus is immediate and not permanent, by the way.

2) No idea, to be honest, I never looked at the process.

3) Happiness does, but only slightly.

 

[J. pride]

Leoreth, been some time since i posed. I love the new Prussian split and all the other balancing and enhancements.

I was wondering, will you be adding Poland now that you have added Prussia. Somebody already mentioned stopping HRE's expansion eastwards and I think that a one or two city Poland (and Lithuanian) civ would be the best way to acheive this. This way Poland will be occupied until the 18th century when the superior German and Russian forces conquer it.

 

[soul-breathing]

my own opinion about English uhv.
the uhv "found or conquer four cities in each continent by 1730" can be replaced by "control 4 cities in each continent in 1800 (or 1850)".
I think it will be more historical,because the uk colonized australia since 1788,1730 is a little early.

 

[strijder20]

That would make it too easy, IMHO, as I got that goal without too much trouble.

 

[strijder20]

I updated two days ago, so this might already be implemented, but in my version no mounted units can flank attack bombards.

 

[Leoreth]

No, thanks, I forgot about that.

 

[stevenp.carter]

Hi Leoreth,

First and foremost, great job on the mod! I love how you're updating it practically everyday

However, I must inform you that the latest revision (264 I believe) is bugged in the victory conditions, every civilization I load is "defeated" before it even spawns! Hope you can find the problem without too much effort. Again thanks for the hard work you're putting into this!

 

[Leoreth]

That comes with the quick updates Next revision works again.

 

[soul-breathing]

@Leoreth

I think Prussia,Russia,America and Japan can also have Trading Company event as England,France and Dutch.

This is my concrete plan:

Prussia:complete trading company>colonize Africa and New Guinea:
1 settler,1 rifleman and 2 workers appear on New Guinea Island;
2 cannons and 3 riflemen appear in Tanzania,the same in Cameroon.

Russia:complete trading company>colonize Central Asia,Mongolia and Manchuria:
2 cannons,2 cossacks and 3riflemen appear near Samarkand;
4 cannons,5 cossacks and 5 riflemen appear near Kara Qurum;
2 settler,2 workers,5 riflemen and 3 cannons appear in Manchuria.

America:complete trading company>get the West Coast,Alaska and Hawaii:
cities from Seattle to Los Angeles join to America automatically,and can't be rejected by each side;
if there aren't any cities on the West Coast,then 2 riflemen,2 settler and 3 workers appear on the West Coast;
1 settler,1 rifleman,1 worker and 1 work boat appear in Alaska,the same in Hawaii.

Japan:need the tech of corporation to build trading company>get Manchuria and Korea:
2 artilleries and 6 riflemen(have a promotion of combat III) appear in Manchuria（simulate the war between Russia and Japan）;
if Japan hasn't got Korea that time，then 2 artilleries and 6 riflemen appear near seoul.

I think this change may make the game more historical.As for the balance,you may do some adjustment.

It'll be an honor if you accept my plan

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Great idea. Balance-wise though,

(1) America (especially AI) *really* needs this;

(2) Russia doesn't need this at all. AI Russia already routinely crush Persia, Turkey, and even Egypt. I've seen one who invaded Mali and took control of La Mezquita there and teched Communism, Rocketry, Fission among other techs ahead of my America.

Also, by the time Russia builds the Trading Company, it is already either too weak or too strong, so that it makes very little difference.

(3) Prussia simply can't afford colonies in those areas because of Stability/Maintenance that will come from taking all of Europe.

(4) Japan is like Russia. When it techs to Economics/Corporations, it should have already been strong enough (so that Korea and Manchuria are already in its control, or up for its taking) or weak enough (so that it can do nothing faced with a strong China).

Also, Japan and Russia already have some mighty clashes as it is, especially with AI Russia who aggressively settle towards Japan's sphere of influence.

 

[soul-breathing]

^ Great idea. Balance-wise though,

(1) America (especially AI) *really* needs this;

(2) Russia doesn't need this at all. AI Russia already routinely crush Persia, Turkey, and even Egypt. I've seen one who invaded Mali and took control of La Mezquita there and teched Communism, Rocketry, Fission among other techs ahead of my America.

Also, by the time Russia builds the Trading Company, it is already either too weak or too strong, so that it makes very little difference.

(3) Prussia simply can't afford colonies in those areas because of Stability/Maintenance that will come from taking all of Europe.

(4) Japan is like Russia. When it techs to Economics/Corporations, it should have already been strong enough (so that Korea and Manchuria are already in its control, or up for its taking) or weak enough (so that it can do nothing faced with a strong China).

Also, Japan and Russia already have some mighty clashes as it is, especially with AI Russia who aggressively settle towards Japan's sphere of influence.

First,thank you for agree my plan,though just a part of it

second,I make this plan just to make this game more historical,as for balance...in fact,I haven't think too much about balance...

In history,Russia had captured Central Asia,Mongolia and Manchuria,I think many people want to see a Russia Empire(or USSR) whose territory is from Atlantic to Pacific

and so does Prussia,Germany's demand of colonies is one of the causes of the WWI

and the war between Japan and Russia is an important war,it means the rise of Japanese Empire.

 

[Fresol]

It needs serious balancing. Currently the AIs don't need to build trading company to trigger the event, they only need the prerequisite tech which is Economics. Riflemen are just ridiculous at that time.

 

[soul-breathing]

It needs serious balancing. Currently the AIs don't need to build trading company to trigger the event, they only need the prerequisite tech which is Economics. Riflemen are just ridiculous at that time.

Yes,I see it.So I think for these 4 countries,AI also need to build trading company to trigger this event

and I think it isn't so ridiculous.When Spain(with the tech gunpowder but without astronomy) discovers the new world,they can also have UU(need both gunpowder and astronomy).