Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[calad]

I dont have any idea what people are arguing here. My point here is: Eastern Christianity predates Western Christianity and thats why it should be original true faith. Western Christianity is basically decentralized version of Eastern Christianity: The Head of religion is independent, not a vassal of supreme leader.

 

[civ_king]

I dont have any idea what people are arguing here. My point here is: Eastern Christianity predates Western Christianity and thats why it should be original true faith. Western Christianity is basically decentralized version of Eastern Christianity: The Head of religion is independent, not a vassal of supreme leader.

The See of Rome predates the See of Constantinople by hundreds of years.

 

[Mef]

I think to really make it more realistic, the religious techs would have to be changed quite a bit.

Orthodoxy would be automatically founded in Jerusalem instead of Catholicism and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre would be the new holy wonder of Orthodoxy.

The Hagia Sophia would be a wonder available with Theology and would move the holy city to where its built. If it's possible it gets the same mechanics as the Apostolic Palace.

All Christian civs start with Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism and when a certain tech is discovered (imho it should be Divine Right which would not be a Muslim tech anymore) an event similar to the reformation happens where some civs become Catholic and the new Catholic holy wonder Apostolic Palace is automatically built.

This could also auto-happen in Rome when the tech isn't researched before 1050, or not, to allow more historical freedom (in case the Hagia Sophia was built in Rome and a split wouldn't happen there,etc.).

 

[calad]

The See of Rome predates the See of Constantinople by hundreds of years.

The bishops of these five sees consider themselves to be successors of those indicated in the following list:

Rome, in Italy (Saint Peter and Saint Paul)
Constantinople, now Istanbul in present-day Turkey (Saint Andrew)
Alexandria, in Egypt (Saint Mark the Evangelist)[10]
Antioch, in present-day Turkey (Saint Peter).
Jerusalem, in the Holy Land (Saint Peter and Saint James)

Other sees who claim to be founded by an apostle and thus can claim to be apostolic sees include:

the Archdiocese of Athens, Greece (Saint Paul)
Ephesus, in present-day Turkey (John the Apostle)
Seleucia-Ctesiphon, near modern Baghdad and the ruins of ancient Babylon in present-day Iraq (Thomas the Apostle, Bartholomew the Apostle, and Thaddeus of Edessa)
Aquileia, in northeastern Italy (Mark the Evangelist)
See of Milan, in northwestern Italy (Barnabas the Apostle)
See of Syracuse, in Sicily (Peter)
Philippi, in Greece (Saint Paul)
Thessaloniki, in Greece (Saint Paul)[11]
Corinth, in Greece (Saint Paul)[12]
Malta (Saint Paul)
Paphos, in Cyprus (Barnabas and Paul)
Armenian Apostolic Church (Thaddeaus (Jude the Apostle) and Bartholomew the Apostle)
Saint Thomas Christians in India (Thomas the Apostle)

The see of Rome actually become political important only after 600 AD when Byzantines lost the city. Before that Rome was insignificant city which had lost her glory long ago. Catholic Church was very loosely organized, like priest married women against the rule of Pope. Meanwhile Constantinople was know as "The City" and Orthodox Church build Hagia Sophia.

I think to really make it more realistic, the religious techs would have to be changed quite a bit.

Orthodoxy would be automatically founded in Jerusalem instead of Catholicism and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre would be the new holy wonder of Orthodoxy.

The Hagia Sophia would be a wonder available with Theology and would move the holy city to where its built. If it's possible it gets the same mechanics as the Apostolic Palace.

All Christian civs start with Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism and when a certain tech is discovered (imho it should be Divine Right which would not be a Muslim tech anymore) an event similar to the reformation happens where some civs become Catholic and the new Catholic holy wonder Apostolic Palace is automatically built.

This could also auto-happen in Rome when the tech isn't researched before 1050, or not, to allow more historical freedom (in case the Hagia Sophia was built in Rome and a split wouldn't happen there,etc.).

I like this. There should definetly be a split in Christianity. I think best trigger would be when France/Spain/Germany controls Rome. It would present how Papacy became independent from Byzantine rule and gained control of Western Europe.

 

[Swarbs]

The see of Rome actually become political important only after 600 AD when Byzantines lost the city. Before that Rome was insignificant city which had lost her glory long ago. Catholic Church was very loosely organized, like priest married women against the rule of Pope. Meanwhile Constantinople was know as "The City" and Orthodox Church build Hagia Sophia.

Actually the See of Rome was designated primus inter pares at the Council of Nicaea, which was the point at which the church formally organised itself around the Sees, with Antioch and Alexandria as the other two. That made Rome the most important See, but didn't give it any power over the others - it was "first among equals". The See of Constantinople was established in 381 as second most important after Rome. So as long as Rome was still in the empire it was the centre of Christianity at the time.

The loss of Rome greatly weakened the power of the see of Rome - the Council of Chalcedon in 451 was held without the Pope and established that even though Rome was still "first amongst equals", Constantinople was the place where all theological disputes had to be resolved. So it meant the Pope was now only a figurehead with no real power to control the church, and the Normans, Saxons etc all founded their own bishoprics in the West without Papal authority. The main thing that caused the reemergence of the power of the Pope was the desire of the Franks to stop the Byzantine Patriarchs trying to control their bishops, so they supported the power of the Pope against the Eastern Christians.

I like this. There should definetly be a split in Christianity. I think best trigger would be when France/Spain/Germany controls Rome. It would present how Papacy became independent from Byzantine rule and gained control of Western Europe.

I agree with the split, but think it needs to be a bit more structured to reflect historical reality. The split should start with the formation of the Byzantine Empire in 330AD, as that was around the time the See of Constantinople was established and given similar powers to Rome. At that point, all Eastern Roman cities should turn Orthodox and all Western Roman should turn Catholic.

The relations between Catholics and Orthodox should then vary depending on who controls Rome - if the Byzantines control it then relations are positive, if it is independent they are neutral, and when the Catholics gain control then relations should become poor. That would give the Byzzies an incentive to conquer Rome, in order to gain better relations with Catholic nations and hence better levels of stability.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The relations between Catholics and Orthodox should then vary depending on who controls Rome - if the Byzantines control it then relations are positive, if it is independent they are neutral, and when the Catholics gain control then relations should become poor.

Hmm, and if the WRE survives? Your suggestion means that the relationship between Catholic WRE and Orthodox ERE should be poor (since WRE will adopt Catholicism).

Furthermore, there was no separate "Orthodox" and "Catholic" churches in the 4th century - they were the same church. It would mean anachronistically projecting 4th Crusade-like attitudes to the Late Antiquity. Equality of Constantinople with Rome doesn't translate to a split in the church anymore then autocephalous Orthodox churches mean that there's a split in the Orthodoxy.

The see of Rome actually become political important only after 600 AD when Byzantines lost the city.

Technically, they lost it in 770'ies. Byzantine control over Rome and Ravenna (captured by the Langobards 751) was already quite slipping during the 8th century, though.

 

[Swarbs]

Hmm, and if the WRE survives? Your suggestion means that the relationship between Catholic WRE and Orthodox ERE should be poor (since WRE will adopt Catholicism).

Good point. If Rome is held by the WRE then there should still be good relations - relations should only become poor when a Medieval European civ (France, Spain, Germany) captures Rome.

Furthermore, there was no separate "Orthodox" and "Catholic" churches in the 4th century - they were the same church. It would mean anachronistically projecting 4th Crusade-like attitudes to the Late Antiquity. Equality of Constantinople with Rome doesn't translate to a split in the church anymore then autocephalous Orthodox churches mean that there's a split in the Orthodoxy.

The mod already anachronistically projects a split in late antiquity with the AP construction. In actuality there was no one single point of split, the two sides diverged gradually over time due to various ecumenical and theological issues. But the Council of Chalcedon in 451 was the first time the two Sees were placed in a position of equality, which is generally accepted as the point at which the two sides began to split.

Can you suggest any better mechanism for representing the split?

 

[Lone Wolf]

The mod already anachronistically projects a split in late antiquity with the AP construction. In actuality there was no one single point of split, the two sides diverged gradually over time due to various ecumenical and theological issues.

True, but making it happen with the Byzantine spawn would be worse - in my games, the AP tends to be built in the Middle Ages, not in the Antiquity (based on 600AD observations, for the record).

But the Council of Chalcedon in 451 was the first time the two Sees were placed in a position of equality, which is generally accepted as the point at which the two sides began to split.

I've rarely seen this date. The most conventional one of the split is 1054. As you said, it was a gradual affair, though.

EDIT: altho' if you won't have WRE and ERE gnashing their teeth at each other for being wrong religion, then it'll work fine, methinks.

 

[Mef]

True, but making it happen with the Byzantine spawn would be worse - in my games, the AP tends to be built in the Middle Ages, not in the Antiquity (based on 600AD observations, for the record).

?
Rome starts with the AP in the 600AD start and as soon as one Catholic civ exists you get pope elections, which is not very historical.

It's definitely ahistorical to have the AP (and with it the pope) available that early on.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Rome starts with the AP in the 600AD start

Really? Huh, hadn't noticed that. Then Swabs' suggestion is fine.

 

[civ_king]

The see of Rome actually become political important only after 600 AD when Byzantines lost the city. Before that Rome was insignificant city which had lost her glory long ago. Catholic Church was very loosely organized, like priest married women against the rule of Pope. Meanwhile Constantinople was know as "The City" and Orthodox Church build Hagia Sophia.



I like this. There should definetly be a split in Christianity. I think best trigger would be when France/Spain/Germany controls Rome. It would present how Papacy became independent from Byzantine rule and gained control of Western Europe.

Actually Constantinople was once a suffragan of Heraclea Pontica

 

[Swarbs]

True, but making it happen with the Byzantine spawn would be worse - in my games, the AP tends to be built in the Middle Ages, not in the Antiquity (based on 600AD observations, for the record).


I've rarely seen this date. The most conventional one of the split is 1054. As you said, it was a gradual affair, though.

EDIT: altho' if you won't have WRE and ERE gnashing their teeth at each other for being wrong religion, then it'll work fine, methinks.

1054 is the conventional date, but that's just the date at which the two sides had finally had enough. And ultimately that date was all down to the politics of the time, and the general split between east and west, which is why I think there needs to be some player input into the respective status of the two religions.

 

[alpav]

1054 should be the split as that was when they actually finally split even though it was a gradual process. Making them split before is like making England spawn B.C. just because the area was populated.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

What do you mean by this? If you mean Russian, Serbian, Romanian Orthodox etc... they are all the exact same and have the same belief only different regional saints. Russian priests for example can give services in a Greek church if there is no priest from the Senior countries such as Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia.



Don't get into this please. We're gonna have a huge argument about who split off from who.
Also in Orthodoxy, we never refer to the pope as a patriarch.

I know, most of the Orthodox national Churches are probably closer than various syncresticy Catholic churches in Latin America & Africa.
I meant the Persia, Armenian, Syrian, Ethiopian and other Eastern Churches that didn't accept all the Ecumenical councils.

I don't the controversy, I mean Greece is the usual founder and Ethiopias goal is too "found Catholicism" it just looks better.

 

[alpav]

I know, most of the Orthodox national Churches are probably closer than various syncresticy Catholic churches in Latin America & Africa.
I meant the Persia, Armenian, Syrian, Ethiopian and other Eastern Churches that didn't accept all the Ecumenical councils.

I don't the controversy, I mean Greece is the usual founder and Ethiopias goal is too "found Catholicism" it just looks better.

Just reminded me. Why in the world should Ethiopia found Catholicism? They were Orthodox but even then its a strech to "found" the religion.they should instead have a UHV such as build a certain number of Orthodox churches, monasteries, cathedrals by a set date, kind of like Armenia in SoI.

 

[civ_king]

Just reminded me. Why in the world should Ethiopia found Catholicism? They were Orthodox but even then its a strech to "found" the religion.they should instead have a UHV such as build a certain number of Orthodox churches, monasteries, cathedrals by a set date, kind of like Armenia in SoI.

That's too unpredictable, The only way to guarantee Orthodox gets founded by a certain date is to build the Apostolic Palace yourself and that guarantees you don't get Orthodoxy.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

They were 2nd-state to adopt Christianity. I dunno though, I like Ethiopia and all and all but they're just about the most boring Civ in the game, at least for me.
Ethiopia has or had a unique flavour to it, with very strong Judaic elements which only got stronger after thousands of Jewry fled there after Islamic persecutions in Yemen.


Random Suggestion:
Possible togive Civ's additional UHV's, depending on Religion?
Obviously I got the idea from SoI, but perhaps making them Civ-specific? For this I'm sure the userbase would be eager to make most of them.

 

[alpav]

I'm thinking though maybe the way Orthodoxy is founded should be changed so it's not random?

 

[Locutus_Morti]

I think the whole problem can be solved by emphasizing the AP in the eyes of the AI. We don't need to change the way it's founded.

 

[BenZL43]

I think the tedious problem with Ethiopia is that they do not represent the Axumite, neither they represent the Medieval Ethiopia nor Haile Selassie's Ethiopia.. or even today's Ethiopia.

Instead, it creates an imaginary Ethiopia combining all elements randomly at a random way.
1) Their UB is Axumite (Stele)
2) Their LH is Medieval (Zara Yaqob)
3) Their UP is Modern (Power of Sovereignty? #iirc)
4) Their UHV lacks of historical basis, especially the one that's derived from RFC
5) Their capital is Axumite (Axum)
6) Their CNM is combination of Medieval (Maqadishu, Lalibela, etc), and Modern (Addis Adaba, etc)

Afaik the Ethiopians would not care who control the regions now called Tanzania, Kenya, Mozambique etc.. especially at that certain years.

That's why I once recommend to rework the Ethiopia to be an Axumite civilization, with UHV focusing on trades etc, and respawn as the modern Ethiopia whenever possible...

I hope they will be reworked soon.