Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[Leoreth]

New commit:
- disabled debug messages again
- generic great people do not have unique names anymore

 

[ales_]

What are generic great people?

 

[ozqar]

Well, I had been waiting for the official release of version 1.13, but when I saw Polynesia here I had to get the SVN and then went to bed at 6 am because I had to check it out before going to sleep (priorities, you know!). I really enjoyed the game and will try it again later today. I also had some of the already mentioned problems.

As for UHV possibilities, how about building a palace in Hawai'i or (for a somewhat alt-hist version), in New Zealand? Getting contact with South America would also be very nice. Perhaps after contact with South America their cities could get a +1 food and/or health (as there is no potato resource)?

There isn't a "conquerors" event against them, right? Because there's reasonable way to expect them to be prepared for that.

Finally, an AI-controlled Polynesia could work if they just got a couple of free settlers popping up on islands on certain dates along their historical expansion routes or just at random moments (they did discover many of the islands by chance and "educated guesses"). Alternatively, settlers could also pop up a certain amount of turns after they do something (like building their UB).

Thanks for the great work, Leoreth

 

[Chep]

Just finished a Polynesian game and I must say, it's great. I love the completely alternate situation which requires a different approach to the game.

yeah, they are actually quite fun. And it is a short game. I just managed to improve upon my own record despite increasing the difficulty level
but I think with the higher cost for the statues it can no longer be won before 800AD.

I found it really enjoyable to puzzle out how to reach the necessary islands the fastest. I think I missed ~2-3 turns but should be close to the maximum.

 

[Leoreth]

What are generic great people?

GPs for civilizations that don't have specific GP names.

Well, I had been waiting for the official release of version 1.13, but when I saw Polynesia here I had to get the SVN and then went to bed at 6 am because I had to check it out before going to sleep (priorities, you know!). I really enjoyed the game and will try it again later today. I also had some of the already mentioned problems.

Haha, great!

As for UHV possibilities, how about building a palace in Hawai'i or (for a somewhat alt-hist version), in New Zealand? Getting contact with South America would also be very nice. Perhaps after contact with South America their cities could get a +1 food and/or health (as there is no potato resource)?

Oh, a palace goal would be interesting. It could represent a transition to the Kingdom of Hawaii (even though that is still far off historically) and does require production, so you'd get something out of your Moai Statues.

There isn't a "conquerors" event against them, right? Because there's reasonable way to expect them to be prepared for that.

No there isn't.

Finally, an AI-controlled Polynesia could work if they just got a couple of free settlers popping up on islands on certain dates along their historical expansion routes or just at random moments (they did discover many of the islands by chance and "educated guesses"). Alternatively, settlers could also pop up a certain amount of turns after they do something (like building their UB).

Thanks for the great work, Leoreth

I could do that, but it would require a lot of scripting for a civ that isn't even supposed to be enabled.

yeah, they are actually quite fun. And it is a short game. I just managed to improve upon my own record despite increasing the difficulty level
but I think with the higher cost for the statues it can no longer be won before 800AD.

I found it really enjoyable to puzzle out how to reach the necessary islands the fastest. I think I missed ~2-3 turns but should be close to the maximum.

Yeah, when I did it for the first time I already had a couple of ideas on how to improve my game (such as prioritizing Drama more ...), it'll be interesting to see what the earliest turns are for the second goal.

 

[Tigranes]

Are you planning to edit 1700 and 600 maps to include flourishing Polynesians ready to be colonized?

These cape tiles are very invisible, looking like regular coast tiles, unless you mouse them over. Can we make them more obvious by adding some rocky island graphics or perhaps a fake resource icon, like marshes in the old days.

Also, do the Kuril islands deserve to be added?

 

[Leoreth]

I think any colonization of the Polynesian islands by other civs would work better without the Polynesians there.

I'd be happy to add an unobtrusive but visible graphic for the cape feature (something like reefs), but definitely not a resource bubble because I've always found them ugly for marshes so I don't want to bring them back.

Kurils as island feature: sure, there's probably a lot that might be added still, I'll look at this at the next opportunity.

 

[merijn_v1]

I've seen other mods using the stone resource art for reefs.

 

[DarkLunaPhantom]

I could do that, but it would require a lot of scripting for a civ that isn't even supposed to be enabled.

They could have something like China has now for their cities. With each Settler built they could get a random city in their historical area, maybe core cities first and then historical, that doesn't seem like a lot of scripting.

I think any colonization of the Polynesian islands by other civs would work better without the Polynesians there.

Independent/Native Rapa Nui with Moai Statues would be nice to have in later scenarios.
Also I've seen that Polynesia collapses to Independent, maybe they should collapse to Native.

I've seen other mods using the stone resource art for reefs.

I was planning to suggest this, at least as a temporary solution.

 

[Leoreth]

I've seen other mods using the stone resource art for reefs.

Might be worth a try.

 

[Chep]

Indonesia seems to have been hit quite hard by the trade-route-changes you made recently.

Also, that barbarian Privateer appearing in their territory in the 1500s is just plain annoying. Indonesia has no production to speak of, relies on its waterconnections and you need 2 Orang Lauts to successfully get rid of that thing but have to be careful or Arabian/Spanish caravels destroy your Orang Lauts.
Imho making them appear when the first civ can build some or making it Barbarian Orang Lauts would be fairer.

Also they seem to have a very high chance to get no buildings when they conquer a city or am I just unlucky?

I think Spain should get its option to found/buy Manila when they have Astronomy and Gunpowder. Right now they always just appear outside my city (when I play Indonesia, China or Japan) and since I have at least either Gunpowder or Engineering their trebs hit my castle walls for a few turns before Spain sues for peace again. (so basically this would be a buff to AI Spain, imho)

It seems you reduced the malus for having unstable vasalls (since the Incas basically dont have any other status except for collapsing, maybe), thanks.
And you seem to have changed the happiness-unhappiness-calculations, maybe a bit too much in a slavery-tolerating way, since I have cities with 40+ turns of whipping unhappiness and yet still get a happiness-bonus. However my economic stability is now 0, so it all kind of evens out in the end -.-

And could we please get some sort of way of finding out who you are at war with? I think the easiest way would be that you don't lose contact to a civ you are currently at war with. Especially for seafaring civs this would be really useful since now you often have civs come out of nowhere (fog of war), killing your units and you have no chance of avoiding it because you cant even make peace with the other civ (and honestly quite often you dont even remember being at war with them. Like Italy and Turkey declared war on me 3 turns after I met them, and then we didn't see each other again for another 30-40 turns and they sued for peace giving me some gold for free basically^^)

 

[Leoreth]

Just a thought: the current Indonesian UP might be cool, but probably isn't that effective over an entire game. Maybe the old overseas bonus should become the Indonesian UP instead?

 

[Chep]

That sounds cool, yeah.
Or they get their own "Lighthouse"-bonus: +1 traderoute in each coastal city

(I added some comments in the above post while you answered)

 

[Chep]

yeah, I am just gonna doublepost, hope thats okay..

so concerning Indonesia:
- the traderoute-UP sounds great, but please keep in mind, that if you reduce the AIs willingness to trade resources (which I think you said somewhere) Indonesias 2nd UHV would become a lot harder or you'd have to fight even more (the spawn of Thailand right in that timeframe is already bad enough, imho )

other:
- what does the Porcelain Tower do now? "All trade routes are counted as foreign and intercontinental" (I remember not understanding it before and you explaining it, but since you changed the trade routes I am confused again. Plus I forgot: "all traderoutes" - all in that city or in all cities?)

- the tech pace feels a bit off, but that might be caused by the Paragon difficulty. When Prussi spawned they were 5-6 techs ahead of me and I am ~2 ahead of everyone else (except the Dutch). Would Prussia actually get the Liberalism-tech if no one had researched it when they spawn?

- a lot of civs, especially the Euros, collapse before their time. without them having lost their core, HRE some time before 1600, Spain ca 1650, England around 1700, etc. However China stayed alive until ~1400 and respawned in ~1525-1550. In this context I have 2 suggestions:
1. I lost a unit I had stationed in a friendly city when that civ collapsed. Can't my unit just be expelled? Seems somewhat unfair
2. Some civs were unstable for quite a while before collapsing, it seems because they simply avoided stability checks. Could you maybe either implement a feature that causes stability checks if you haven't had one in a while (25 turns for example) or that makes them every....10-15 turns if you are unstable? Because you don't always have that spare tech to throw around and see if that civ is already dead or not.

 

[BenZL43]

I don't really understand what changes to trade route recently but the current Indonesian UP is very original and cool. I think we should encourage more naval trading in the Asia and make ships stays in Indonesian water longer to improve the effect.

 

[Leoreth]

The Porcelain Tower effect stays the same. The base effect for foreign trade routes is still in effect, and you still get a bonus for overseas trade routes by building a Customs House. The Porcelain Tower makes these modifiers apply to all trade routes (and not just for the city it is built in).

 

[Leoreth]

New commit: Fixed the removal of the marsh feature on New Guinea.

 

[Tigranes]

I think any colonization of the Polynesian islands by other civs would work better without the Polynesians there.

Sure. But (1) if 3000 BC USA will colonize Hawaii which, for example, has a Pop 1 city there, why should 600 or 1700 AD USA find no one there? And (2) why can't players play "latter days" Polynesians just for fun, without caring much about UHV, if they want to try more historical Earths of 600 AD or 1700 AD scenarios?

600 AD and 1700 AD starts need to be understood in the following way: in some alternate universe human race developed from 3000 BC onward in the way which is present on the map (happens to be the actual historical way). If there were Maoris, Hawaiians and Tahitians in the years 600 and 1700 -- we need to have them on the corresponding maps to keep some internal logic in place.

 

[archcapitalist]

Disagree. There were also navajo , Sioux, etc in 1700. But they aren't on the map.

In 600 or 1700 there no Polynesian cities of size 1.

Empty space on the map doesn't mean no people. Just as a mine on a hill does not meant that the entire space is taken up by one mine

 

[Tigranes]

Disagree. There were also navajo , Sioux, etc in 1700. But they aren't on the map.

In 600 or 1700 there no Polynesian cities of size 1.

Empty space on the map doesn't mean no people. Just as a mine on a hill does not meant that the entire space is taken up by one mine

You are confusing representing people with representing a civilization.

Mod is using the approximation in which some people are represented as civilizations, some people represented as Natives and Barbarians, some people represented as goody huts, and some people are not represented.

We made a choice to represent Polynesian people with dedicated Polynesian civilization. Just like there is a China in 3000 BC, and in 600 AD (with Great Wall), and in 1700 AD -- we need to be consistent and have Pop 1 city on Easter Island with Moai Statues there on 1700 AD map.