Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[merijn_v1]

How? Malnourished person is lacking in health directly, and indirectly -- has a lower immune system and resistance to common diseases. Unhealthiness is more inclusive term than simply being sick, can you acknowledge that?

How can a person be malnourished, if there is a surplus of food available?

To answer your question why the granary provides health with wheat and wheat itself doesn't: Wheat by itself is useless. It has to be processed. The granary represent the processing of wheat into something people can use.

 

[Panopticon]

Mods don't exist without... the creative, mad, genius who makes the mod!

In fact, I am sure many mods exist and have no players. Someone was crazy enough to create something and invite everyone else's judgement.

Nobody represents anyone but themselves here. So we should write reasonably to one another.

 

[Leoreth]

I certainly sometimes have the attitude of throwing something out knowing that it will be unpopular. That's just necessary in some situations to break through some inertia in the player base. People like what they are used to. I think I referenced that somewhere on the last page.

But I also think that discussion and feedback are important. I don't write multi paragraph posts here because I have time to waste. Which really makes the claim that I don't care about opinions absurd on the face of it, if that was the case I would just sit the whole debate out and not react to hyperbolic complaints at all.

 

[Leoreth]

In the meantime:
- restored base health to grain and seafood
- moved extra health for seafood from Harbor back to Lighthouse again
- new building: Smokehouse (requires Animal Husbandry): +1 health from Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep
- Granary does not give extra health for Wheat, Corn, Rice anymore
- Supermarket does not give extra health for Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep anymore
- new Supermarket effect: +1 health from Wheat, Corn, Rice
- Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep, Fish, Clam and Crab cannot be traded until the discovery of Refrigeration

- new Indian UP: Purity: one extra health for every three excess happiness
- new Indian UB: Bamboo Bowman (Archer): can enter Jungle, starts with Shock and Woodsman I

I wanted to elaborate on this but instead I will go to sleep. More tomorrow then!

 

[soul-breathing]

In the meantime:
- restored base health to grain and seafood
- moved extra health for seafood from Harbor back to Lighthouse again
- new building: Smokehouse (requires Animal Husbandry): +1 health from Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep
- Granary does not give extra health for Wheat, Corn, Rice anymore
- Supermarket does not give extra health for Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep anymore
- new Supermarket effect: +1 health from Wheat, Corn, Rice
- Cow, Deer, Pig, Sheep, Fish, Clam and Crab cannot be traded until the discovery of Refrigeration

I will try this revision later today. Seems it pursues both reality and balance. Great job!

 

[Fresol]

I just want to suggest removing modifier for all civilizations, since we are trying to adjust balancing issues. Just like and worker work rate, there's little reason to set up different modifiers for each civilization for . Plus, it almost solves the excess problem entirely.

Another thing I had in mind is that buildings like Aqueducts could give -2 instead of +2, though it doesn't really make a difference now I think about it.

 

[andrewv42]

We should just remove health altogether and make growth a function of excess happiness, which will in turn be influenced by food.

 

[agentxorange]

Ok, without being too rude, why on earth would we remove health? Just because people are disagreeing on it doesn't mean the solution is to eliminate it.

Everybody is different and complaining about slightly different things. Don't oversimplify the situation. Same problem can have many different solutions, axing resources is not a panacea

Leoreth is allowed to make changes to the mod without consulting you. There's no situation here, it's his mod. You can like or dislike the changes, and there is no "solution" to them.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

We should just remove health altogether and make growth a function of excess happiness, which will in turn be influenced by food.

On that note, why don't we make happiness global and only allow one unit per tile? While we're at it, Leoreth should charge money for extra civs from now on. Uh, how about archers that can shoot across the English Channel?

 

[Hobs]

Fish has been traded extensively since ancient times dried and/or salted.

Cow/Sheep can be argued to represent cheese and other diary products which have also been extensively traded since ancient times.

Refrigeration is a bit too late for trading these IMO.

 

[agentxorange]

On that note, why don't we make happiness global and only allow one unit per tile? While we're at it, Leoreth should charge money for extra civs from now on. Uh, how about archers that can shoot across the English Channel?

It's fairly easy to tell who likes Civ 5 more than 4, isn't it?

 

[Fresol]

Fish has been traded extensively since ancient times dried and/or salted.

Cow/Sheep can be argued to represent cheese and other diary products which have also been extensively traded since ancient times.

Refrigeration is a bit too late for trading these IMO.

Yeah, also if Ivory can be traded as elephants and Horses can be traded(as horses themselves of course), there's no reason why other livestocks can't.

Isn't there a parameter in civRhye.cpp to measure how close a civ is to another(in deciding possibility of vassalization I suppose)? You can try to implement a similar parameter to decide whether resources can be traded between 2 civilizations. The restriction can be lifted after say, Astronomy.

 

[Lokki242]

Hey Leoreth. Just wanted to let you know that I played a Canada game earlier today. Health changes weren't really a big issue, I had to be aware of it but it wasn't game destroying. Basically, I'm happy with the new changes. I actually had more trouble keeping Toronto, Halifax and Vancouver happy.

Speaking of Vancouver, it doesn't seem to register as a Pacific port when you attach a railroad to it. I built a railroad from Montreal to Vancouver and the UHV didn't check, but then I tried connecting it to Prince Rupert and it worked. So you may want to look into that possibly.

Keep up the great work!

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Fish has been traded extensively since ancient times dried and/or salted.

On that note, why is there no salt resource? It's, like, one of the most important resources there is in real life.

 

[Leoreth]

Speaking of Vancouver, it doesn't seem to register as a Pacific port when you attach a railroad to it. I built a railroad from Montreal to Vancouver and the UHV didn't check, but then I tried connecting it to Prince Rupert and it worked. So you may want to look into that possibly.

Can you upload a screenshot so I can see which Vancouver it is exactly? There are multiple tiles with the name.

 

[soul-breathing]

On that note, why is there no salt resource? It's, like, one of the most important resources there is in real life.

I also think salt could be a health resource, in the meantime I also think we could make timber a resource which can double production of ships.

 

[agentxorange]

I also think salt could be a health resource, in the meantime I also think we could make timber a resource which can double production of ships.

RFC Classical...? Timber is already represented by chopping anyway.

 

[calad]

What about market and groceries? Did you forgot them or leave them out as on purpose?

Also what about adding more food resources in game? And are luxury resources next on your list after this is completed?

 

[Sinsyne]

New commit: Fixed calculation of number of cities maintenance when losing or acquiring cities.

The fix ended up being relatively straight forward, but I don't understand why it really was necessary. Or rather, why this hasn't been in the code already and why it has ever worked before. Or what I might have done to break it.

Okay, so it turns out that as expected, the reason was that I was dumb while being a smartass. It's weird how you can spend three hours trying to figure out a bug one day without accomplishing much and then you find the reason first thing the next day.

In any event, I have rolled back the fix from yesterday and a stupid change I made a while ago that ruined maintenance calculation. In my defense, who would have thought that BtS resets the maintenance of destroyed cities by setting their population to 0 before deleting them.

Ha, so that pesky bug is solved! Nice.

On the topic of health, and the uselessness of aqueducts: It's true that getting many health resources was too easy, but another part of the problem I think is that most + buildings have another effect besides that, one even better than the extra (grocer, granary, lighthouse might be debatable). I'd build these anyway even if the city in question is never expected to face health issues and that's a big part of the reason aqueducts are neglected. Their competition just can do the same and more.

So divorcing the health bonus from the other effects would be a solution, which I see you have already implemented with the smokehouse. What I would consider ideal is that you can keep your cities healthy, but you have to actually invest in it. It isn't just automatic with all the resources you have, you need to build aqueducts, smokehouses and perhaps a new building like sewers, things you would not build for their non-health benefits.

 

[Leoreth]

Markets and Groceries work as they are in my opinion, so I left them unchanged.

Not sure what to do about resource happiness to be honest. I collected some data about the amount of happiness civs had available in their native region (roughly core/spawn area), and it actually was fine for most of them. The only with very high numbers were India and China, for whom it is historically accurate to have large cities early. Close follower is Persia, which lacks food to make use of it until Persia conquers more fertile regions, which is also appropriate.

Europeans are lacking in happiness on the other hand until they can trade or colonize. That is also appropriate.

So if anything, I think trade is the aspect to tackle here. Putting a tech requirement in the way doesn't seem appropriate though. I'll pay more attention how the recent AI changes have affected that. If that isn't sufficient, I think it would be a good idea to encourage AI to initiate resource trades. For some unknown reason, you rarely see this in my experience. That has the consequence that most AIs have resources free for the taking once the player takes the initiative.