Death Star vs. Borg Cube

[aelf]

I don't think either one has any real basis for a debate, seeing as how such huge government systems inevitably collapse on themselves.

Just ask Hari Seldon.

Wrong, at the end of the Foundation series there is one big government for the galaxy called Gaia. You might call it a version of Optimization, but it really is more of a Utopia than anything else.

Hari Seldon's psychohistory was, unfortunately for fans, ultimately only a tool of R. Daneel Olivaw.

 

[Perfection]

I've already explained and given a link to a further explanation of why the Ewoks won the Battle of Endor.

You're substituting proximate cause with ultimate cause. They won because they were cute stone age cuddlywugs, how they won is just the plot conforming to this principle.

 

[nc-1701]

Contradicted in at least one SW source which has the first Death Star blowing up a rebel battleship (former Trade Fed ship) in battle. Though granted some sourcebooks have said the Death Star was unable to target anything smaller than a planet.

I guess it just depends on which canon you believe then.

And of course, as you mentioned concentrated fire being able to overwhelm even adapted Borgs - the Death Star's secondary weapon emplacement still give it the firepower of over a hundred Imperial Star Destroyers together. It most certainly can pull a "concentrated barrage" strategy all by itself.

Quite possibly, these turbolasers could certainly damage a Borg cube, but after it adapts it could probably survive such an attack. After all due to the Death Stars shape only a tiny fraction of them can be brought to bear at a time.

Already discussed - DS I did have shields, just with enough tiny cracks for small snub-fighters to slip through.

If fighters can get through then large numbers of Borg drones could also transport through. Once Borg get on the station the Death Star is screwed.

It would also have had, once completed, its very own shield, sans the cracks of the original design.

While under construction. It would have had its own hyperdrive.

But it was never finished, so a finished Death Star 2 doesn't appear in Star Wars cannon.

Per the novels, twenty-five thousand Star Destroyers. Not counting any and all supporting ships - Cruisers, Frigates, Destroyers, etc.
Per the movies, "several" command ships (ie, Executor-class ships) exist, of which only one was at Endor, so it's obvious only a fraction of the Imperial Fleet was at Endor.

To be honest I generally discount most of what the novels say. They are usually very contradictory and often make claims that don't really hold up when you think about them. For example in several novels (Heir to the Empire?), X-wings attacked ground troops with proton torpedoes, the effects were similar to those of an IRL 2,000lb bomb. In X-wing Rogue Squadron the Bacta Wars, several hundred proton torpedoes were enough to destroy a super star destroyer. Photon torpedoes have capacities in the mega-ton range by any calculation. Thus a single proton torpedo could easily blow a Super Star Destroyer to hell.

Actually, the Asteroids comparison compares the performance of the Star Destroyers in Episode V against the performance of the Enterprise in one episode (I forgot which) where it is unable to blow up a mid-size hollow asteroid.

In the episode where the Enterprise was trapped in an asteroid the asteroid was far, far larger than the ones destroyed in episode 5. In fact the Enterprise (several hundred meters long) traveled many ship lengths inside the asteroid before reaching the place where they became trapped. Clearly the asteroid was at least several kilometers across. The ones destroyed in Episode 5 were mere boulders, slightly larger than a Tie-Fighter, also when the Millennium Falcon went inside the space slug. On an asteroid that was larger (closer to the size of the one Enterprise was stuck in) the Imperials had to wait until the Falcon came out. If they could have destroyed the whole asteroid they would have.

The published figures comparison use figures for the Acclamator-class transports (much smaller and weaker than Imperial Star Destroyers) from one of the Episode 2 sourcebook, against published figures from the Star Trek sourcebooks.

The published figures are obviously wrong. According to the published figures, in Episode 2 Republic Gunships had laser guns with rating in the range of several kilotons. Yet when they used in the arena battle they caused only enough damage to destroy several droids. A kiloton level weapon would have destroyed the entire stadium and created a mushroom cloud. Similar arguments can be made for every instance we see weapons with 'official' Star Wars ratings in use.

That was just Death Squadron, Darth Vader's personal capital ship bodyguard unit.

Try "in the neighborhood of seventy capital ships". (They had at the very least fifty ISDs and Impstar-deuces, along with about fifteen other Star Destroyers of varying sizes, like the Executor, the "main communications ship", the Tectors, and the VSDs.) Then you have to count their support craft.

Well, if we take your number of eleven Super Star destroyers and assume each is backed by a fleet of 70 capital ships we have a figure of 770 Capitol warships, backed by large numbers of light support warships. If not all capitol ships are in these dedicated fleets we have perhaps 1,000 Capitol ships and maybe 10,000 large support ships, putting them in a numerical disadvantage to the Borg of about 3-1

'Cause the Empire has never heard of drydocks or repairing their combat vessels?

Of course they have, but repair times are measured in months, for the Borg it's in hours. Any way you look at it that's a huge advantage.



So I'll recap, from what's actually been shown on screen it's clear that phasers, photon torpedos, and turbolasers are all in the same general ballpark in terms of firepower. Phasers are probably somewhat weaker, but not by a huge amount. Borg Disruptors are stronger than phasers, but not by a huge amount. Any claim that one side totally dominates the other is rubbish. Any Star Wars vs. TNG level Star Trek would be a huge battle, but in this case I think the Borg would dominate, with significant losses of course, but the Borg are relentless.

 

[Evie]

Has the Thrawn Trilogy (by Timothy Zahn) been ruled non-canon at some point?

Oh no, quite not. In fact, Specters of the Past belongs to a duology which is known as the Hand of Thrawn duology, and is pretty much a sequel to the original Thrawn Trilogy. Which stand to reason, since Specters of the Past and Visions of the Future were both written by Zhan himself.

The 25 000 figure is from the private thoughts of Imperial Supreme Commander, Admiral Pellaeon (you know, Thrawn's old second-in-command), and he is on the bridge of the Chimaera (Thrawn's old flagship) when he thinks it.

Because Thrawn and the post-Endor rebellion both went to a lot of trouble to hunt down a hundred old dreadnoughts. It seems to me that 25000 ISDs just don't go away over the course of even a dozen years, and if they haven't gone away no one should be all that chuffed about a hundred lesser ships.

I don't think the 25000 figure is 'realistic'. How many "member planets" in the Galactic Republic at any point?

in the Galactic Republic, unknown.

In the Empire, again per Specters of the Past and Pellaeon, a million system at maximum expansion. (A thousand at the time of Specters of the Past, nineteen years after Yavin).

Regarding why they were all so trippy about two hundred old capital ships, I think it's Han who puts it bluntly in Specters of the Past : the rebellion never fought more than a fraction of the Imperial Fleet, because the Empire had many, many, many ongoing missions that all required Star Destroyers ongoing at any one time - including keeping a million system from killing one another, keeping pirates, smugglers, rebels and a variety of others subjugated, defending core systems against possible attack, etc.

So two hundred additional capital ship would allow Thrawn to stretch out those few star destroyers he could take out of system patrol duty and accomplish much more with them.

In addition, per the rest of the canon, large parts of the Imperial Fleet had been recalled to Byss, in the deep core, by a clone of the emperor at the time of Thrawn's campaign. So these were not available to Thrawn either.

------

NCC, I already stated why I'm not going to ignore the novels - it makes for a boring comparison, where there is almost no Star Wars source material, against several hundred hours of Trek. It makes for a boring, mostly pointless comparison, as there isn't nearly enough material in the movies to gauge the full power of the Empire.

 

[Dachs]

This thread is the same argument over and over and over again. Trekkies need to learn how to read what people have already posted.

I guess it just depends on which canon you believe then.

No, it's that most of the sourcebooks are superseded. S-canon and N-canon contradict the rest of them, as well as themselves, so to all intents and purposes they should be ignored.

but after it adapts it could probably survive such an attack. After all due to the Death Stars shape only a tiny fraction of them can be brought to bear at a time.

A tiny fraction of a huge number at that kind of power output is still enough to turn a Cube into slag with a single fusillade.

Once Borg get on the station the Death Star is screwed.

This argument has also been done before. See previous parts of thread.

To be honest I generally discount most of what the novels say. They are usually very contradictory and often make claims that don't really hold up when you think about them.

Because you don't understand the concept of "canon"?

For example in several novels (Heir to the Empire?), X-wings attacked ground troops with proton torpedoes, the effects were similar to those of an IRL 2,000lb bomb. In X-wing Rogue Squadron the Bacta Wars, several hundred proton torpedoes were enough to destroy a super star destroyer.

First off, your source ain't right, 'cause in HE X-wings didn't serve as ground support, and if they were to do so they would use lasers to strafe. Secondly, the Lusankya wasn't even close to destroyed during the events of the Battle of Thyferra; it was badly mauled, sure, but it had to deal with an Impstar-deuce, an Alderaanian War Cruiser, upwards of a hundred freighters, and several snubfighter squadrons, and was being hit by more ordnance than just proton torpedoes. It was still in plenty good shape to be used by the New Republic later on, after all. Finally, it must be said that "proton torpedo" does not refer to a single standardized weapon with a single yield, any more than "nuclear bomb" does. Different torpedoes made by different manufacturers at different times for different delivery systems will have different yields. So there is a variant of a proton torpedo that's better to use against an AT-ST because it's got less baradium in it, and then there's a variant that's more suited for ship-to-ship and anti-capital ship engagements.

Thus a single proton torpedo could easily blow a Super Star Destroyer to hell.

I don't follow.

Well, if we take your number of eleven Super Star destroyers and assume each is backed by a fleet of 70 capital ships we have a figure of 770 Capitol warships, backed by large numbers of light support warships. If not all capitol ships are in these dedicated fleets we have perhaps 1,000 Capitol ships and maybe 10,000 large support ships, putting them in a numerical disadvantage to the Borg of about 3-1

That's not logical at all. Firstly, the Imperial fleet at Endor was mainly meant to trap the Rebels long enough for the Death Star to destroy them, and thus wouldn't be as big (if it were a bigger fleet, the Rebels would have just run away). Secondly, not every Star Destroyer is in a Super Star Destroyer's fleet, as we both acknowledge, but the numbers are way more skewed than you'd say. The vast majority of Imperial Star Destroyers operate with their own mini-fleet of tenders, Escort Frigates, corvettes, light cruisers, and starfighter carriers, with no SSD's around. Super Star Destroyers are usually only available for use by Oversector-level fleet commands or 'special circumstances' like Vader or the Black Fleet. Finally, those are the only 11 that we can name as of the Battle of Endor. Since "Super Star Destroyer" is actually a blanket term encompassing Star Dreadnoughts among other vessels, it refers to other vessels made before even the Executor was laid down, but for which we don't have names.

Of course they have, but repair times are measured in months, for the Borg it's in hours. Any way you look at it that's a huge advantage.

Fair enough. I'm not entirely sure what the Borg would be repairing, but that works.

the Borg are relentless.

Isn't the Empire, too?

 

[Nylan]

Contradicted in at least one SW source which has the first Death Star blowing up a rebel battleship (former Trade Fed ship) in battle. Though granted some sourcebooks have said the Death Star was unable to target anything smaller than a planet.

One source vs many and no evidence of ship destruction as per Episode IV

And of course, as you mentioned concentrated fire being able to overwhelm even adapted Borgs - the Death Star's secondary weapon emplacement still give it the firepower of over a hundred Imperial Star Destroyers together. It most certainly can pull a "concentrated barrage" strategy all by itself.

Once again, people forget by no stretch of the imagination will every laser or even a large majority of them be able to target the Cube at once. It is, after all, round. How long their respective ranges are determines whether or not all those which can sight the cube can actually hit it.

It would also have had, once completed, its very own shield, sans the cracks of the original design.

never happened, moot point

While under construction. It would have had its own hyperdrive.

never happened, moot point

Per the novels, twenty-five thousand Star Destroyers. Not counting any and all supporting ships - Cruisers, Frigates, Destroyers, etc.
Per the movies, "several" command ships (ie, Executor-class ships) exist, of which only one was at Endor, so it's obvious only a fraction of the Imperial Fleet was at Endor.

Assuming we can trust the novels, yes.

Actually, the Asteroids comparison compares the performance of the Star Destroyers in Episode V against the performance of the Enterprise in one episode (I forgot which) where it is unable to blow up a mid-size hollow asteroid.

A rather imbalanced test due to the inconsistancy of data vs examination of an image.

 

[Ninja Dude]

How is this thread still alive? Death Star/ Empire win, it's obvious. look at the poll. Look at the posts. All the people on the Borg/Cube side do is say the same things over and over without reading the thread.

 

[Perfection]

Dude, double posts defeated the empire too.

 

[Perfection]

Dude, Ewoks defeated the Empire, if Ewoks can defeat the empire the Borg can beat the Empire.

 

[Patroklos]

but after it adapts it could probably survive such an attack.

RTFT. There is absolutely no reason to assume the Borg can addapt to none phaser weapons they have never seen before. Well, appart from giving the ST a dues ex machina they always need to survive any ST/SW comparison.

In any case, we know that even in the ST world the limits of Borg adaptation to weaponry has been reached, as the Feds in First Contact had no problem landing blows in the Borg cube, and that is with weapons using orders of magnatude less powerful weapons.

Again, what do the Borg do with the energy and momentum from weaponry? Magic!

 

[Ecofarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWPlqcIncdQ&feature=related

The Borg have no music and no heroes. Their cubes would be scrap metal by morning.

In space, the force assimilates you.

 

[Perfection]

Hello, Patroklos, the reason why the Federation defeated the Borg is the same reason why the borg would defeat the Empire and a Borg Cube the Death Star, the less technologically advanced guys always win!

 

[Dachs]

One source vs many and no evidence of ship destruction as per Episode IV

What are these 'many' to which you refer? The novel Death Star, being one of those periodic attempts to unify canon, is C-canon. Sourcebooks that contradict novels are S. C > S, book wins, Death Star can target ships. In addition, just because the movie doesn't show the Death Star blowing up capital ships doesn't mean it can't; the fact that it never engages any capital ships during the course of the movie may be a good reason for it not to destroy any.

Once again, people forget by no stretch of the imagination will every laser or even a large majority of them be able to target the Cube at once. It is, after all, round. How long their respective ranges are determines whether or not all those which can sight the cube can actually hit it.

That still means that 1,250 heavy turbolaser cannons, 1,250 D6 turbolaser batteries, 625 SFS L-s 4.9 cannons, 625 ion cannons, and an indeterminate number of charged-particle blasters...within a 90-degree arc of the battlestation. And, again, the Death Star has basically a fleet's worth of support ships.

Assuming we can trust the novels, yes.

Why the hell shouldn't we be able to?

The Borg have no music and no heroes. Their cubes would be scrap metal by morning.

QFT.

 

[Zardnaar]

The 25000 ISD was originally from the West End Games SWRPG but it is a canon figure. Thats only 1 ISD for every 40 planets or so in the empire. If you think they couldn't all disappear look what happend to the Soviet armed forces in the 5 years from 1991-96. More or less the same thing happened to the empire after Endor and a civil war to boot.

 

[nc-1701]

RTFT. There is absolutely no reason to assume the Borg can addapt to none phaser weapons they have never seen before. Well, appart from giving the ST a dues ex machina they always need to survive any ST/SW comparison.

In any case, we know that even in the ST world the limits of Borg adaptation to weaponry has been reached, as the Feds in First Contact had no problem landing blows in the Borg cube, and that is with weapons using orders of magnatude less powerful weapons.

Again, what do the Borg do with the energy and momentum from weaponry? Magic!

Can you actually support this argument in any way? From what I have read so far Star Wars's only argument is repeating that Star Wars weapons are more powerful ad infinitum. Do you have ANY evidence at all that this is the case? Can you make some argument supporting this point of view? I have already carefully explained why this is not the case. I cited scenes from individual episodes. All you or any others who claim the Death Star would win have done is posted a link to a website I have already debunked. Unless you can step up and actually cite scenes from episodes that prove that Star Wars weapons are in fact stronger, I'm going to call BS.
Another reminder, and large bolt in the coffin for http://www.stardestroyer.net/index.html
Is comparing the visible effects of handheld weaponry. In Star Wars a blaster is described as basically being dramatically scaled down laser. They have minimal effects when used, in Episodes VI Leia was shot by one in the arm. While hurt there was no large explosion and really she only received severe burns to her arms. In Episode IV many gun fights occurred and while the blasters were often lethal they caused very little damage to walls and didn't severely damage the bodies of those hit with them. In Star Trek handheld phasers are also essentially minuterized versions of larger ship based phasers. In various episodes we see handheld phasers completely vaporize people, and punch large wholes in solid metal. Clearly handheld phasers are far more damaging than blasters. There is no reason why when used on a larger scale the laser weapons used in Star Wars should be any stronger, or even as strong as, the weapons used in Star Trek.

So please, give me some reasons to back up this claim. Please don't post links do the thinking for yourself, just as I have done.

 

[KaiserElectric]

In the episode where the Enterprise was trapped in an asteroid the asteroid was far, far larger than the ones destroyed in episode 5. In fact the Enterprise (several hundred meters long) traveled many ship lengths inside the asteroid before reaching the place where they became trapped. Clearly the asteroid was at least several kilometers across. The ones destroyed in Episode 5 were mere boulders, slightly larger than a Tie-Fighter, also when the Millennium Falcon went inside the space slug. On an asteroid that was larger (closer to the size of the one Enterprise was stuck in) the Imperials had to wait until the Falcon came out. If they could have destroyed the whole asteroid they would have.

Great theory, but I don't believe the empire knew that the Millenium Falcon was in that asteroid. Otherwise they would have blown up the whole asteroid rather then having their TIE Bombers bombard the surface of it.

 

[Patroklos]

The 25000 ISD was originally from the West End Games SWRPG but it is a canon figure.

The 25000 is just for Imperator-class Star Destroyers. There are at least as many Victory-class Star Destroyers and several other destroyer classes have been identified. And that is just destroyers.

Can you actually support this argument in any way?

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/power.html#firepower

"During its hunt for the Millennium Falcon, the star destroyer Avenger used its minor guns in the brim trench and on the hull to clearing asteroids in its path [TESB]. These observations indicate a lower limit on the energy delivered by a single blast from one of the smallest turbolasers. These were probably not full-power shots, but were merely intense enough to remove the asteroids with minimal trouble and waste. The asteroids were on the order of several meters to several dozens of metres in diameter, and composed chiefly of iron and similar metals. Realistically, the asteroid composition may have been silicate (eg. like granite or basalt) or dominated by iron-like metals.

The energy delivered by the turbolaser shot must raise the asteroid material from the initial temperature to the melting temperature (Tf), then supply the latent heat of fusion (Lf) to change the state frm solid to liquid, and then raise the temperature to a boiling point (Tv) and provide a latent heat of vaporisation (Lv). The boiling point is pressure-sensitive; in principle it might be close to the melting point because vaporisation of the exterior of the asteroid occurs in a nearly perfect vacuum.

Solid iron has a density 7870 kg/m³ and a heat capacity of 449 J/kg/K near room temperature, latent heat of fusion Lf=2.67x105 J/kg and Tf=1811K. The heat capacity increases with temperature, but we can use these figures to determine a lower limit on the amount of energy needed to melt a ball of iron in space. With a diameter of 10m, starting from 0°C (arbitrarily chosen, though the real initial temperature was probably lower) the energy required to melt an iron asteroid is > 3.94 TJ. This whole quantity of energy is delivered to the object within the duration of the turbolaser bolt, no more than a fifth of a second.

Asteroid diameters of 5m - 20m have been suggested [Stephen Comblidge, Peter Chung: private correspondence and newsgroup contributions] implying minimum melt energies of 0.49 TJ to 32 TJ respectively. This is comparable to the energy yield of a kiloton of TNT, 1 kt = 4.2 TJ. For further comparison, a small and primitive fission bomb might have an explosive yield of 20kt.

The latent energy of vaporisation may alone exceed the amount of energy needed to melt the body, let alone the amount needed to raise its temperature to the boiling point. In terrestrial conditions, the latent heat of vaporisation of a 10m diameter iron ball is approximately 25.8 TJ. Estimates of the melting plus vaporisation energy [by Eric Vandersall] are 32TJ and 260TJ respectively for 20m and 40m diameter asteroids at an initial temperature of about 206K. These are uncertain as detailed values, since the heating process process is non-equilibrium, supersonic and takes place in vacuo. Nevertheless, these results are plausibly indicative order-of-magnitude estimates. Therefore, considering the maximum observed fire rate of at least 1/s [in the asteroid field and in battles throughout the saga] we can estimate a lower limit on the power of each of the small anti-fighter point-defence cannons as between 250TW and 2000TW. The sixty-four visibly large dorsal heavy cannons must have considerably greater power than even this lower limit"

That is the actual observed LOWER limit of an ISD's SMALLEST weapons. And then of course there is...

"The literature of STAR WARS novels contains several passages which suggest the scale of weapon yields on star destroyers and other Imperial warships. Slave Ship p.248 describes warship weapons with structural mounts designed to cope with the equivalent of explosions "in the gigatonnage range." This hints that the individual guns, which may be the kind mounted on destroyers, have yields of a similar scale: ~1018J (ie. millions of terajoules) or more. "

And as has already been mentioned, the vessels of the clone wars had weapons yields that would make anything the Borg had seem like water guns.

From what I have read so far Star Wars's only argument is repeating that Star Wars weapons are more powerful ad infinitum.

Hardly. As has been pointed out turbolasers are NOT lasers (or phasers) so there is nothing to modulate, the Borg do not have the ability to adapt (whatever the hell that magic means).

Again, RTFT.

Another reminder, and large bolt in the coffin for http://www.stardestroyer.net/index.html
Is comparing the visible effects of handheld weaponry.

1.) You did not debunk it, you simply dismissed it outright.

2.) The comparisons are not based on handheld weaponry, but rather the ability of a Imperator to entirely vaporize quarter kilometer asteroid with relative ease while the Enterprise using its most powerful attmept can barely dent one.

In Star Wars a blaster is described as basically being dramatically scaled down laser.

RTFT. At no point is a blaster ever described as anything resembling a laser.

They have minimal effects when used, in Episodes VI Leia was shot by one in the arm. While hurt there was no large explosion and really she only received severe burns to her arms.

I just watched a TNG episode last night in which a Fed phaser killed someone and not only didn't leave a wound, but didn't even burn the clithing (the one where they lose their memory and are tricked into attacking one party in an ongoing war). Hell, in DS9 pretty much everyone has no physical damage, and that is during wartime.

In Star Trek handheld phasers are also essentially minuterized versions of larger ship based phasers. In various episodes we see handheld phasers completely vaporize people, and punch large wholes in solid metal.

Unfortunetly, not consistantly, as noted. In the VAST majority of cases we get nothing more than a temorary glow effect leaving no physical damage at all. In aver indtance of blaster fir there is ALWAYS physical damage of some sort, so in fact the preponderance of evidence is on SW's side.

Clearly handheld phasers are far more damaging than blasters [FALSE]. There is no reason why when used on a larger scale the laser weapons used in Star Wars should be any stronger, or even as strong as, the weapons used in Star Trek.

There is absolutely no reason to assume either system is correspondingly stronger due to scale. For all we know each system gets more inefficient as they get larger, or perhaps the opposite.

So please, give me some reasons to back up this claim. Please don't post links do the thinking for yourself, just as I have done.

You have done a lot of "thinking" if you want to call it that, but unfortunetly none of it is cooroborated by observed canon.

In the episode where the Enterprise was trapped in an asteroid the asteroid was far, far larger than the ones destroyed in episode 5. In fact the Enterprise (several hundred meters long) traveled many ship lengths inside the asteroid before reaching the place where they became trapped. Clearly the asteroid was at least several kilometers across. The ones destroyed in Episode 5 were mere boulders, slightly larger than a Tie-Fighter, also when the Millennium Falcon went inside the space slug. On an asteroid that was larger (closer to the size of the one Enterprise was stuck in) the Imperials had to wait until the Falcon came out. If they could have destroyed the whole asteroid they would have.

Its the material destoyed and the character of destuction that counts, NC.

 

[nc-1701]

Great theory, but I don't believe the empire knew that the Millenium Falcon was in that asteroid. Otherwise they would have blown up the whole asteroid rather then having their TIE Bombers bombard the surface of it.

If they didn't know the Millennium Falcon was on it, then why would they have bombed it? If they weren't sure then why was that the only asteroid they bombed? Finally if they only suspected the Millenium Falcon was on it and they had the capacity to completely destroy the asteroid why didn't they?
The only reasonable explanation was that they couldn't destroy the asteroid. What we are doing is estimating capacities based on the screen play. Clearly the Star Destroyer couldn't destroy an asteroid that large.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/power.html#firepower

That is the actual observed LOWER limit of an ISD's SMALLEST weapons. And then of course there is...

In general I don't dispute any of this... While Iron asteroids are very rare and thus we can assume the weapons actually have somewhat lower minimum power, I don't mind using these numbers as an assumed power though. At a middle of the road figure from your estimates we have 100tj for these cannons, or according to your source about 20kt of TNT. I'm NOT debating that figure. I agree with you, my point is NOT that Imperial weapons are weak, in fact I think they are very powerful weapons. I simply do not think those are significantly stronger than the ones seen in Star Trek.


And as has already been mentioned, the vessels of the clone wars had weapons yields that would make anything the Borg had seem like water guns.
Based on numbers given in the Clone Wars Visual Dictionary? Those numbers are clearly wrong as can be seen in many battles during episode II, where weapons that are supposedly in the kt range have no more effect than a small RL bomb would. Movies > than book. Since they do not agree we must follow the stronger canon of the movies.

Hardly. As has been pointed out turbolasers are NOT lasers (or phasers) so there is nothing to modulate, the Borg do not have the ability to adapt (whatever the hell that magic means).

Not to be an arse, but do you have any idea how Borg adapt? It's very simple and will work against any type of weapon.
Any weapon will release it's energy in certain bands. For example the Sun releases more energy as visible light than as Gamma Rays. Now depending on what type of particles etc. is coming at them the Borg can adjust their shields so that most or all of their shield energy is devoted to blocking the highest energy portions of an enemy beam weapon. So the Borg will quickly detect what type of energy a Turbo laser blast is made up of and optimize their shields for protection against it.
No magic, it's really quite simple an will work on any type of weapon, of course it's not 100% either.

1.) You did not debunk it, you simply dismissed it outright.

2.) The comparisons are not based on handheld weaponry, but rather the ability of a Imperator to entirely vaporize quarter kilometer asteroid with relative ease while the Enterprise using its most powerful attmept can barely dent one.

Nowhere in any Star Wars movie has a Imperator class Destroyer vaporized an asteroid larger than 10m or so... Certainly nothing remotely close to 250m. There is no evidence at all that they could.

RTFT. At no point is a blaster ever described as anything resembling a laser.

Actually in Star Wars these were often referred to as "lasers", I am aware though that they are not lasers. Whatever we want to call them I will refer to them as lasers. I will put it as 'laser' from now on though to demonstrate I'm not reffering to RL lasers, but whatever Star Wars calls lasers.

I just watched a TNG episode last night in which a Fed phaser killed someone and not only didn't leave a wound, but didn't even burn the clithing (the one where they lose their memory and are tricked into attacking one party in an ongoing war). Hell, in DS9 pretty much everyone has no physical damage, and that is during wartime.

Also if you listen to the dialogue you will hear "set phasers to stun", or "set phasers to kill", or even "set phasers to maximum". Obviously phasers have a sliding power scale. In several Voyager and TNG episodes we see people completely vaporized by phasers. We can only assume that means that at least some Federation issue phasers are capable of completely vaporizing someone. In star Wars the most damaging effects of a blaster were singed clothing burns and death. In terms of energy requirements not even close. Also we saw that blasters cause little damage to things like metal. In several movies the Millennium Falcon is fired upon by blasters with no effect save for slight black marks on the hull. In Star Trek we see phasers used to cut through metal doors in several episodes.

Unfortunetly, not consistantly, as noted. In the VAST majority of cases we get nothing more than a temorary glow effect leaving no physical damage at all. In aver indtance of blaster fir there is ALWAYS physical damage of some sort, so in fact the preponderance of evidence is on SW's side.

The evidence is that blasters always cause some physical damage and in most cases death or injury, Leia was hit by one in Episode 4 though and was completely unharmed. In Star Trek the effects vary from simply knocking the victim unconscious, just as happened to Leia, or anything up to completely vaporizing their bodies.

There is absolutely no reason to assume either system is correspondingly stronger due to scale. For all we know each system gets more inefficient as they get larger, or perhaps the opposite.

True

You have done a lot of "thinking" if you want to call it that, but unfortunetly none of it is cooroborated by observed canon.

All of it is based on scenes from Movies or television shows, do you deny these scenes were in the movies? What exactly do you claim?

Its the material destoyed and the character of destuction that counts, NC.

Sure, in Star Trek we see a Borg cube survive a hit from a Species 8472 Bioship. We also clearly see 8 such bioships destroy a planet with their combined firepower. According to various Star Wars canon sources a group of several Imperator class star destroyers is capable of slagging a planets surface. During an extended bombardment of several hours. a Species 8472 ship can provide 1/8 the energy required to completely destroy a planet , or severely damage or in some cases destroy a Borg cube. Clearly a Borg cube could survive hours of concentrated bombardment from a group of Star Destroyers. Which provide only enough firepower to melt a planets surface in hours of continues bombardment.
In terms of shield strength Borg cubes are clearly far stronger than anything short of a planetary defense shield from Star Wars. We clearly see several dozen photon torpedoes overwhelm a Borg Cube in First Contact, and if a Borg Cube has stronger shielding than most anything in the Star Wars Universe then obviously a few volleys of photon torpedoes can destroy an Imperator class Star Destroyer. Also Borg Cubes have stronger weapons than Federation Photon torpedoes...

I rest my case, and please don't try to keep debating if you are going to ignore the information on Borg shield strength as seen in Scorpion. It was already completely ignored once and if your going to ignore it again then your admitting it proves a Borg Cube has far stronger shielding than most anything in Star Wars, certainly an ISD, and all the other assumptions about weapons we can make based on that.

 

[Evie]

No, if the Imperials could have destroyed the asteroid they wouldn't have.

Vader said "I want that ship". And when Vader say, "I want that ship", you CAPTURE the ship, and you don't do really stupid stuff like blowing up an asteroid it's hiding in.

Because doing THAT might get Vader to say other stuff, like "You have failed me for the last time" or "Apology accepted."

Words which most imperials don't particularly want to hear.

 

[Patroklos]

In terms of shield strength Borg cubes are clearly far stronger than anything short of a planetary defense shield from Star Wars. We clearly see several dozen photon torpedoes overwhelm a Borg Cube in First Contact, and if a Borg Cube has stronger shielding than most anything in the Star Wars Universe then obviously a few volleys of photon torpedoes can destroy an Imperator class Star Destroyer. Also Borg Cubes have stronger weapons than Federation Photon torpedoes...

No, we don't. We see pretty much every Federation weapon impact directly on the hull (what happened the addapting?!?!). The fact that it took so many photon torpedoes to destroy an unarmored and unshielded cube of metal is not a testiment to their power, but to their weakness.