Deaths in Iraq

[Ramius75]

NEWSFLASH:

Iraq is a democracy!

No more chemical weapons killing towns of 10,000 people at a time (for a total of 250,000 in one 3 year period).

No more honor killings being legal.

No more FGM being legal.

Women are allowed to learn how to read.

Women are allowed to vote.

No more state sanctioned rape, murder, or kidnapping.

No more Saddam's sons going into school and choosing girls to rape and murder.

No more Saddam Dungeons.

No more draining the land of the Swamp Arabs, killing them by the 10,000 like the Kurds.

No more court sentances of gang-rape for women.


Sure... no success there. None at all. Those changes are obviously huge failures. We should just put things back the way they were. Girls, to the rape rooms! And let's get digging some mass graves, because we've got years of Kurd and Swamp Arab killing to catch up on. I want those dungeons re-opened and filled with 20k people asap. Crank up the agriculture biochem -> weapons plants, because there's another 1/2 million Kurds that need a purging, chemical Ali style! And someone call France, because we got some oil to trade for "food". Oh, and I almost forgot - someone gather up all the homosexuals.

Woo! Good times are here again!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.women/

Her fear is justified. Iraq's second-largest city, Basra, is a stronghold of conservative Shia groups. As many as 133 women were killed in Basra last year -- 79 for violation of "Islamic teachings" and 47 for so-called honor killings, according to IRIN, the news branch of the U.N.'s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

"We thought there would be freedom and democracy and women would have their rights. But all the things we were promised have not come true. There is only fear and horror."

http://cronespeaks.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/liberating-the-women-of-iraq/

Almost four years into the Bush Administration’s ill fated adventure in Iraq, Iraqi women are worse off than they were under the Baathist regime in a country where, for decades, the freedoms and rights enjoyed by Iraqi women were the envy of women in most other countries of the Middle East.

Before the U.S. invasion, Iraqi women had high levels of education. Their strong and independent women’s movement had successfully forced Saddam’s government to pass the groundbreaking 1959 Family Law Act which ensured equal rights in matters of personal law. Iraqi women could inherit land and property; they had equal rights to divorce and custody of their children; they were protected from domestic violence within the marriage. In other words, they had achieved real gains in the struggle for equality between women and men. Iraqi women, like all Iraqis, certainly suffered from the political repression and lack of freedom, but the secular — albeit brutal — Baathist regime protected women from the religious extremism that denies freedom to a majority of women in the Arab world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/01/iraq.warcrimes

The Pentagon said yesterday it was pursuing a new war crimes investigation into five American soldiers, alleged to have raped and murdered a young Iraqi woman and killed three members of her family in their home.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13974639/

Four U.S. soldiers accused of murdering suspected insurgents during a raid in Iraq said they were under orders to “kill all military age males,” according to sworn statements obtained by The Associated Press.

http://i.abcnews.com/International/wireStory?id=3611203

The Iraqi government said Monday that it was revoking the license of an American security firm accused of involvement in the deaths of eight civilians in a firefight that followed a car bomb explosion near a State Department motorcade.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22636940-663,00.html

THE Bush Administration is considering air strikes, including cruise missiles, against the Kurdish rebel group PKK in northern Iraq.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/17/turkey.iraq1

Turkey yesterday launched the biggest attack on Iraq since the US invasion in 2003, sending more than 50 warplanes to bomb suspected Kurdish insurgent bases inside Iraqi territory, accompanied by long-range artillery shelling.

The head of Turkey's military said last night it had US approval for the air strikes. "America last night opened Iraqi airspace to us. By opening Iraqi airspace to us last night America gave its approval to the operation," the Anatolian state news agency quoted General Yasar Buyukanit as saying.

So the basic thing is the Iraqis removed one . .. .. .. . to be replaced by another. Things will surely improve of coz. But the same can be done with a non invasion approach and have the whole global community working together. Including working with the devil himself, Saddam.

But you right in one thing thou.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7185602.stm

US President George W Bush has praised a new law in Iraq that will allow former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath party to return to public life.

Now the USA will allow some Baathist members to run for office again. So maybe the good ole days will be back after all. eh ?

 

[Patroklos]

And speaking of torture of dissident. Who can forget Abu Ghraib?

You realize there is no comparison there, right? And that every time anyone tries to call Saddam style/scale attrocities a wash becaus of Abu Gharib they reveal themselves to hopeless tools, right?

/=

 

[hossam]

I bet the Kurds and the Shi'ites did.

really is that why there are shi'ites fighting the u.s right now?

 

[Ramius75]

You realize there is no comparison there, right?

One done by the local Government and another by a foreign invader ? Yes, i think there is no comparison.

The fact is that the some of the American's public still think that their country can do no wrong and it's right to invade other countries "just to improve the lifestyle" is a very serious mistakes.

One can see that given the same power. Even the soldiers from a country as "good" as USA will be capable to commit onto others horrify acts and the fact they don't practice what they preached only makes it worse and hypocritical.

 

[Ecofarm]

@Ramius:

You mean women are still murdered in Iraq?! Wow! I thought everything would be perfect within 5 years! /sarcasm

Abu Graib = Saddam rape rooms, torture dungeons, and mass graves. Sure.

Do you think cruise missiles targeting militant members of PKK is the same thing as using chemical weapons to kill ENTIRE TOWNS for a total of 250k? Yea, about the same thing.

You powers of comparison are incredible. Bush = Hitler?

Let's not pretend that the people of Iraq (especially women) were better off under Saddam's tyranny. That's an ignorant or stupid position to take. He was tried and put to death by his own people.

Next, I'll have to listen to how awesome Stalin was and how the Russian people were better off under him. And Mao, and Pot... Spare us.

 

[Patroklos]

One done by the local Government and another by a foreign invader ? Yes, i think there is no comparison.

There is no comparison because one is a college prank level event even if humiliating and abusive and decidedly an anomaly. The other is a mind bogglingly cruel and painful death causing event on a scale 100,000 times larger and indicative rather than anecdotal to the system.

 

[Ecofarm]

There is no comparison because one is a college prank level event even if humiliating and abusive and decidedly an anomaly. The other is a mind bogglingly cruel and painful death causing event on a scale 100,000 times larger and indicative rather than anecdotal to the system.

Bravo. Some people are upping the eloquence level around here.

 

[Ramius75]

@Ramius:

You mean women are still murdered in Iraq?! Wow! I thought everything would be perfect within 5 years! /sarcasm

Abu Graib = Saddam rape rooms, torture dungeons, and mass graves. Sure.

Do you think cruise missiles targeting militant members of PKK is the same thing as using chemical weapons to kill ENTIRE TOWNS for a total of 250k? Yea, about the same thing.

You powers of comparison are incredible. Bush = Hitler?

Let's not pretend that the people of Iraq (especially women) were better off under Saddam's tyranny. That's an ignorant or stupid position to take. He was tried and put to death by his own people.

There is a different between one acting as evil and one who is hypocritical.

The thing is that USA does not tolerate the PKK is the same intention as Saddam who does not tolerate Kurdish separatist. I'm not saying that killing Kurdish ppl are right, Just that both could be very wrong too.

I could have compare Bush to Hitler or any other invasion in History.

According to many articles.
The women in Iraq were definitely much better under Saddam than present.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-iraqconflict/women_2681.jsp

Just as Iraqi women were anticipating a new era of democracy and freedom, a wave of intimidation by extremist groups has arisen to crush their hopes. Violent oppression of women is spreading across Iraq, a weapon of mass mental and physical destruction. And yet there is silence from world leaders, religious leaders, politicians and the media.

Insurgents and religious extremists use rape, acid and assassination to force Iraqi women to wear the veil – the symbol of submission, first signal of further repression to come. Many Iraqi women have never worn the scarf. Now, dead bodies of girls and women are found in rivers and on waste ground with a veil tied around the head, as a message.

It was not always like this. In the pre-Saddam period, women had opportunities for limited social progress. In 1948, Iraq had been one of the first countries in the middle east to have a woman judge; in 1959, Nazila al-Dulaima (of the Iraqi Communist party) became one of the first female government ministers in the Arabian peninsula. Even under Saddam’s regime, women were free to choose whether to wear western-style dress and make-up or the black abaya. Many wore western dress in their jobs for government departments and in schools and universities.

 

[illram]

If a lower death toll on American soldiers is the criteria for a successful war, then WWII was a miserable, miserable failure.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

really is that why there are shi'ites fighting the u.s right now?

Are you suggesting that the Shi'ites wanted to be oppressed? Or that the Kurds enjoyed being gassed? That everyone just loves the secret police?

 

[Wacky]

I'm just a simple Dutch-guy with a question. Not why Bush invaded the country ? Not if there better of right now.

Just what should we do to the make it a good happy place. Other questions are inrelevant untill that day arrives.

 

[hossam]

Are you suggesting that the Shi'ites wanted to be oppressed? Or that the Kurds enjoyed being gassed? That everyone just loves the secret police?

no thats not what im suggesting but they dont want the u.s either.

 

[homeyg]

Besides which, comparing the two isn't really appropriate. In Viet Nam, you had a clearly defined enemy with territory, infrastructure, and heavy weapons such as combat aircraft and tanks. In Iraq, the enemy has none of those.

This must be some kind of joke.. Clearly defined enemy? Try "enemy with hidden tunnels in thick jungles that they could easily navigate, and also villages of hostile people not in uniform."

 

[homeyg]

NEWSFLASH:

Iraq is a democracy!

No more chemical weapons killing towns of 10,000 people at a time (for a total of 250,000 in one 3 year period).

No more honor killings being legal.

No more FGM being legal.

Women are allowed to learn how to read.

Women are allowed to vote.

No more state sanctioned rape, murder, or kidnapping.

No more Saddam's sons going into school and choosing girls to rape and murder.

No more Saddam Dungeons.

No more draining the land of the Swamp Arabs, killing them by the 10,000 like the Kurds.

No more court sentances of gang-rape for women.


Sure... no success there. None at all. Those changes are obviously huge failures. We should just put things back the way they were. Girls, to the rape rooms! And let's get digging some mass graves, because we've got years of Kurd and Swamp Arab killing to catch up on. I want those dungeons re-opened and filled with 20k people asap. Crank up the agriculture biochem -> weapons plants, because there's another 1/2 million Kurds that need a purging, chemical Ali style! And someone call France, because we got some oil to trade for "food". Oh, and I almost forgot - someone gather up all the homosexuals.

Woo! Good times are here again!

Thank you. These things are always my defense when people say that the war is failing.

 

[Ramius75]

There is no comparison because one is a college prank level event even if humiliating and abusive and decidedly an anomaly. The other is a mind bogglingly cruel and painful death causing event on a scale 100,000 times larger and indicative rather than anecdotal to the system.

it seems that the American public has very short memory. Or izzit selective Amnesia ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21551-2004May12.html

Members of Congress today expressed shock and disgust after viewing hundreds of photographs and video clips related to the abuse of U.S.-held prisoners in Iraq, material that they said would be withheld from the public to protect the integrity of military trials and to avoid further inflaming America's enemies.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said, "What I have seen is disgusting and it is disappointing." He said there were "obvious examples in videos of inhumane treatment" and that, in one photo, he counted seven or eight troops in a hallway in which several Iraqi prisoners were tied together naked on the floor.

College prank ? And i tot the American's college are more like Beta House?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/24/AR2005052401428.html

SAN DIEGO, May 24 -- An alleged Iraqi insurgent, Manadel Jamadi, died under intense CIA questioning at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad about 19 months ago. On Tuesday, the government launched the first criminal trial in the case -- but none of the CIA agents who were involved is facing charges.

 

[Ecofarm]

Just as Iraqi women were anticipating a new era of democracy and freedom, a wave of intimidation by extremist groups has arisen to crush their hopes. Violent oppression of women is spreading across Iraq, a weapon of mass mental and physical destruction. And yet there is silence from world leaders, religious leaders, politicians and the media.

Insurgents and religious extremists use rape, acid and assassination to force Iraqi women to wear the veil – the symbol of submission, first signal of further repression to come. Many Iraqi women have never worn the scarf. Now, dead bodies of girls and women are found in rivers and on waste ground with a veil tied around the head, as a message.

Do you think that best we can do to help is abandoning them? I think we can prod democracy to it's feet and empower the women of Iraq forever.

It was not always like this.

Yes it was. Do we need statistics for FGM, Honor killings, gang-rape sentances from courts, rape rooms, and the actions of Saddam's sons listed out in all their uglyiness for you to understand? It was like this. It is like this less now.

In the pre-Saddam period, women had opportunities for limited social progress. In 1948, Iraq had been one of the first countries in the middle east to have a woman judge; in 1959, Nazila al-Dulaima (of the Iraqi Communist party) became one of the first female government ministers in the Arabian peninsula. Even under Saddam’s regime, women were free to choose whether to wear western-style dress and make-up or the black abaya. Many wore western dress in their jobs for government departments and in schools and universities.

Bla bla bla, see above.

Do you seriously expect people to allow BS measures (you can wear western cloths!) by a raping and murdering regime (Saddam's own sons... do you want evidence of the government sanctioned rape, or do you think that women are better off with that) and TOKEN women in positions of authority to erase the nightmare of patriachal murder, mutilation, and rape that ran rampant in Saddam's Iraq?

It's like there is a pile of red marbles and a single blue marble, and you point and say "Whoa! There's a blue marble!"

C'mon

 

[homeyg]

It's like there is a pile of red marbles and a single blue marble, and you point and say "Whoa! There's a blue marble!"

C'mon

Unfortunately when people try to back up some belief or, in other words, "load of garbage", this is usually their method of thinking..

 

[homeyg]

I could have compare Bush to Hitler or any other invasion in History.

Since Bush has exterminated millions of Iraqi people just because he felt like it..

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

no thats not what im suggesting but they dont want the u.s either.

Well whether they want us there and whether the wanted to be rid of Saddam are two different things.

 

[hossam]

Well whether they want us there and whether the wanted to be rid of Saddam are two different things.

yes that is what i am saying it was not americas job to get rid of sadam and "liberate" iraq, it was the iraqi peoples job to get rid of sadam themselves.