Deaths in Iraq

[Ramius75]

Do you think that best we can do to help is abandoning them? I think we can prod democracy to it's feet and empower the women of Iraq forever.

Of coz not. But i just want to say that the war is a failure. and always should be. So that there will be no more invasion in the future.

Yes it was. Do we need statistics for FGM, Honor killings, gang-rape sentances from courts, rape rooms, and the actions of Saddam's sons listed out in all their uglyiness for you to understand? It was like this. It is like this less now.

yes, i will like to have some proof please. I have been doing all the quoting, but you guys are just tackling the issue with blind reasoning.

Bla bla bla, see above.

Do you seriously expect people to allow BS measures (you can wear western cloths!) by a raping and murdering regime (Saddam's own sons... do you want evidence of the government sanctioned rape, or do you think that women are better off with that) and TOKEN women in positions of authority to erase the nightmare of patriachal murder, mutilation, and rape that ran rampant in Saddam's Iraq?

It's like there is a pile of red marbles and a single blue marble, and you point and say "Whoa! There's a blue marble!"

C'mon

Quotes and statistic please.

 

[Ramius75]

Since Bush has exterminated millions of Iraqi people just because he felt like it..

Its in tens of thousands. But yeah, i still consider them to be Humans.

If bush decided to Kill millions, Then i will already be part of the resistance against him and USA.

 

[The Yankee]

yes that is what i am saying it was not americas job to get rid of sadam and "liberate" iraq, it was the iraqi peoples job to get rid of sadam themselves.

They tried that in 1991.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

yes that is what i am saying it was not americas job to get rid of sadam and "liberate" iraq, it was the iraqi peoples job to get rid of sadam themselves.

I haven't heard any Kurds or Shi'ites saying "whoawait, what are you Americans DOING?! WE wanted to do it! On our own!"

 

[cubsfan6506]

Yes there were many civilians killed before the war. The mass graves are there. Standard of living for who exactly? The Marsh arabs who had there land drained? Maybe the Kurds who were gassed and bombed and killed by the army? Or do you mean the shia who were slaughtered? Maybe you mean the political prisoners and their children who were imprisoned and tortured en mass. The sunni had it great they had all the fresh water and electricity. If you weren't sunni and baath you standard of living was even to what it is now or in the case of the kurds worse. Soldiers die its part of the job detail. Who said no blood? There have been errant bombs and other instances. But be honest. Who is doing the killing? When a bomb blows up a mosque or market its not the US now is it? When 50 men are found executed in a wearhouse its not the US. When a torture house is raided its not the US.

It is a sad state in America when the only way we can look good is to point to a tyrranical dictator and say he was worse.

 

[hossam]

I haven't heard any Kurds or Shi'ites saying "whoawait, what are you Americans DOING?! WE wanted to do it! On our own!"

yes, they are letting the ied's and ak-47's speak for them.

 

[hossam]

They tried that in 1991.

umm... what is that happened in 1991?

 

[Ecofarm]

Of coz not. But i just want to say that the war is a failure. and always should be. So that there will be no more invasion in the future.

You are being too one-sided here. Think for a moment how those people living under government sanctioned rape and murder by the 10000 were living. Can you, as a free man, stand aside and allow that to be? How can you consider yourself free when other men buckle beneath terrible oppression? No man is an island. It is our moral and ethical obligation to see that no man suffers tyranny.

There must be more invasions. It is our duty to mankind.

All of the men of the front line company I served in believed this. We took an oath to the constitution not just for Usians, but for the world. People talk about "why" we have this war. Most ignore the most imporant factor - a desire to spread freedom. That's the reason that men die. Not for oil, or Bush, or any American. We are willing to die for freedom, worldwide. Whether defending it or spreading it is irrelevant. Trust me, noone thought we were needed to defend the US - that's not why any of us joined... bombers are quite sufficient for that. We joined to kick some dictator a. Were it not for a commitment to freedom and the principles of the Constitution, there would not be a single American man on the ground with which to wage war. Period.

All of that oil and national pride and other crap is just icing on the cake for those politicians and smarties and corps that give a crap. We were there for one reason.

yes, i will like to have some proof please. I have been doing all the quoting, but you guys are just tackling the issue with blind reasoning.

Quotes and statistic please.

I'm not going to do it. There were 420 honor killings the year before the invasion and countless FGMs. The cases of a court sentancing women to gang-rape are common and available on google. The gassing of the Kurds, draining of the Southern Swamps, Dungeons, Rape Rooms, and the behaviour of Saddam and his son's is world reknown.

Google if you want. I don't care to re-examine it. IIRC, there's a history channel show "bla bla Saddam" that outlines some of the most egrarious events.

 

[The Yankee]

umm... what is that happened in 1991?

Massive rebellion against Hussein. Put down brutally.

 

[hossam]

Massive rebellion against Hussein. Put down brutally.

well tough luck for them, if at first you fail then you try again. nobody said getting freedom would be easy.

 

[warpus]

I'm not going to do it. There were 420 honor killings the year before the invasion and countless FGMs.

Exactly 420?

Did they stop at 420 for a joint? ... and then forget all about their honor for the rest of the year?

 

[BasketCase]

i dont think people think the iraq war is a failure because of the american death rate but because the u.s has been unable to establish order in the country

It all depends on how you definte "failure" doesn't it?

I define failure as "not succeeding at removing Saddam Hussein from office".

A totalitarian state is an unacceptable method of establishing order. Saddam had to go, regardless of the results.

 

[Ecofarm]

It is a sad state in America when the only way we can look good is to point to a tyrranical dictator and say he was worse.

Don't distort what is going on here.

We are disputing people who say that Iraq was better off under Saddam. We are not saying that US rule is good because it is better than Saddam. Don't pretend we were. It's a classic maneuver:

Spoiler :

1) Say that Iraq is worse today.

When proof arrives that this is rediculous...

2) Say 'so what, it's pathetic that you need to prove you are better than Saddam to say you are a success'.

When the fact is, we didn't set those parameters and are merely responding to someone who did.

Of course we have a long way to go.

 

[Ramius75]

You are being too one-sided here. Think for a moment how those people living under government sanctioned rape and murder by the 10000 were living. Can you, as a free man, stand aside and allow that to be? How can you consider yourself free when other men buckle beneath terrible oppression? No man is an island. It is our moral and ethical obligation to see that no man suffers tyranny.

There must be more invasions. It is our duty to mankind.

Please invade North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Libya, Haiti and most of the African countries. Can you, as a free man, stand aside and allow that to be? How can you consider yourself free when other men buckle beneath terrible oppression? No man is an island. It is our moral and ethical obligation to see that no man suffers tyranny.

You know, u should join the army.

There are lotsa injustice in the world. but the USA invasion of Iraq was not to liberate its people. The reason given by the coalition to invade Iraq was not to liberate its people.

The fact is that the Iraqis are not having better is one hell good reason that the invasion was a failure.

I'm not going to do it. There were 420 honor killings the year before the invasion and countless FGMs. The cases of a court sentancing women to gang-rape are common and available on google. The gassing of the Kurds, draining of the Southern Swamps, Dungeons, Rape Rooms, and the behaviour of Saddam and his son's is world reknown.

Google if you want. I don't care to re-examine it. IIRC, there's a history channel show "bla bla Saddam" that outlines some of the most egrarious events.

Why not ? please enlighten me. Please prove that the Iraqis women are now better off after the war.

 

[hossam]

It all depends on how you definte "failure" doesn't it?

I define failure as "not succeeding at removing Saddam Hussein from office".

A totalitarian state is an unacceptable method of establishing order. Saddam had to go, regardless of the results.

im not saying saddam was good im justing it wasnt the u.s's job to get rid of him.what i mean to say is america should not be the world police.

 

[Ecofarm]

Please invade North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Libya, Haiti and most of the African countries. Can you, as a free man, stand aside and allow that to be? How can you consider yourself free when other men buckle beneath terrible oppression? No man is an island. It is our moral and ethical obligation to see that no man suffers tyranny.

Roger willco asap.

You know, u should join the army.

Did, front line, during war.

There are lotsa injustice in the world. but the USA invasion of Iraq was not to liberate its people. The reason given by the coalition to invade Iraq was not to liberate its people.

US soldiers fight for 1 thing: the constitution.

The fact is that the Iraqis are not having better is one hell good reason that the invasion was a failure.

Back to step 1? Nah.

Why not ? please enlighten me. Please prove that the Iraqis women are now better off after the war.

Back to step 1 basic proof for well known facts? Nah.

This ain't your bridge.

 

[Ramius75]

Don't distort what is going on here.

We are disputing people who say that Iraq was better off under Saddam. We are not saying that US rule is good because it is better than Saddam. Don't pretend we were. It's a classic maneuver:

Spoiler :

1) Say that Iraq is worse today.

When proof arrives that this is rediculous...

2) Say 'so what, it's pathetic that you need to prove you are better than Saddam to say you are a success'.

When the fact is, we didn't set those parameters and are merely responding to someone who did.

Of course we have a long way to go.

And im going to say that the invasion is a failure. The act of invasion is a failure itself. Its sad that the majority of the world and all the protest before the war could not stop it.

 

[Archbob]

Its time to start pulling back, unless you want endless war. One of the few things I don't agree with McCain on.

 

[Ramius75]

Roger willco asap.

If only that happened. You should start with Saudi Arabia 1st please. I will like to see another failure and mistake.

Did, front line, during war.

Good for u.

US soldiers fight for 1 thing: the constitution.

And may people of other countries died for it too.

Back to step 1? Nah.

Back to step 1 basic proof for well known facts? Nah.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Fox News

Total US military deaths in Iraq to date: 3,963.

Wow! It sounds like this war has been such a failure!

Vietnam had a total of around 60,000 deaths after 16 years (Vietnam being a real example of a failure). If this war lasts as long as Vietnam, there will only be around 20% of those deaths at the rate we are going.

IRONICLY: Clinton was attacked as being unfit as a commander in chief and somalia was a failure.

Somalia: Months 15
Casualties: 43 Dead Wounded : 153 = 193