Decision on Prop 8 pending

[Mango Elephant]

No, because a black woman marrying a white man is still normal heterosexual behavior.

Your point? Two lesbians going at it is still normal human behavior.

Doesn't matter whether I use murder, arson, rape, stealing, you name it. I was using another behavior to illustrate that just because one may have a predisposition to <insert behavior here>, it doesn't mean they have to succumb to said impulses. That doesn't mean I was equating homosexual behavior with murder. If others took my post like that, that's their problem for making such an assumption.

But why should gays not have sex? Please answer this question.

But they do. You're not homosexual unless you actually engage in homosexual acts. That's always a choice. Otherwise you're just a normal person who is resisting some impulses you may be feeling.

No, your gay if you're attracted to the same sex.

 

[Newbunkle]

Which is why it's simpler to stop recognizing marriages. Otherwise polygamy should very well be allowed.

Why do you even care if gay people can get married? It doesn't affect you in the slightest. Quit imposing your immorality on other people.

Fixed.

 

[bhsup]

Your point? Two lesbians going at it is still normal human behavior.

Not really, no.

But why should gays not have sex? Please answer this question.

I personally don't care if they do. And a thread I started awhile back clearly indicates I am not going to try to interfere politically with their rights to marry either. But, that doesn't change the fact that God clearly views this as unacceptable behavior, big time.

No, your gay if you're attracted to the same sex.

So you're a smoker if you crave cigarettes but refrain from smoking?

 

[MobBoss]

Absolutely not true. You are homosexual if you are born homosexual. It is exactly a matter of birth. Whether or not someone engages in homosexual behavior is actually irrelevant to that.

But, considering that God made 10% (estimated) of the population homosexual, how do you justify men taking away the rights of those people?

That nice, except science and psychologists dont agree with you.

 

[warpus]

So you're a smoker if you crave cigarettes but refrain from smoking?

That's not how smoker is defined. A smoker is someone who smokes.

A homosexual is someone who is attracted to members of the same sex. It isn't defined as someone who happens to have sex with members of the same sex.

Sure, the two overlap, but let's stick to proper definitions, please.

 

[Mango Elephant]

Not really, no.

Uh, yes. People have sex all the time. It's normal. It doesn't really matter if it's with a man or a woman.

I personally don't care if they do. And a thread I started awhile back clearly indicates I am not going to try to interfere politically with their rights to marry either. But, that doesn't change the fact that God clearly views this as unacceptable behavior, big time.

As long as you don't try to shove your opinion down people's throats because of your religion that's ok.

So you're a smoker if you crave cigarettes but refrain from smoking?

This analogy ... makes no sense.

A smoker actually smokes. A homosexual likes the same gender. Those are the definitions.

So, wanting to marry the person you love is a silly attempt to be Heterosexual? Care to elaborate?

And obviously real Homosexuals do have a desire for marriage, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate right now, would we?

Mobby, please answer.

That nice, except science and psychologists dont agree with you.

Actually, no. Hasn't it already been determined that people are gay (at least gay men) because of hormones pumped into their bodies when they were a fetus in their mother's womb?

 

[MobBoss]

But the majority of people don't choose to be gay.

Well, its been my experience that most people...when they say they dont have a choice in something, they actually still do have choices...they just dont want to make them.

And besides, why should they live a false life as a straight person anyways?

Who says they should? Not me.

It's either to appease people who hate Homosexuality (why would one try to appease them anyways? I would try to piss them off)

Yeah, pissing people off has historically always been an absolute great way to create sympathy for your plight.

or because they fall in love with someone of the opposite gender. You can't help who you fall in love with, be it man or woman.

Myth. Actually, you can. Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures. Even in this.

So, wanting to marry the person you love is a silly attempt to be Heterosexual? Care to elaborate?

Ask Gore Vidal or try reading up on why he said it.

And obviously real Homosexuals do have a desire for marriage, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate right now, would we?

Like I said, that was the opinion of one homosexual on gay marriage. You dont have to like it or even agree with it.

 

[Cutlass]

That nice, except science and psychologists dont agree with you.

Of course they do. All the science says homosexuality is natural. Born, not made. I've never even heard of science that refutes that. Only politics and religion. Some of which pretends to be science in the same way that the "intelligent design" liars do.

 

[Mango Elephant]

Well, its been my experience that most people...when they say they dont have a choice in something, they actually still do have choices...they just dont want to make them.

They most certainly do want to make them - they just can't. Most Gay people fight being Gay for so long it's really terrible. It really is.

Yeah, pissing people off has historically always been an absolute great way to create sympathy for your plight.

I don't do that for sympathy. Homophobes are really the only thing that really piss me off. I could never be friends with one.

Myth. Actually, you can. Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures. Even in this.

Well, no, actually all the Gay people I know have tried to fight it. It doesn't work for everybody - Heck, I'd be suprised if it worked for a sizable minority.

Ask Gore Vidal or try reading up on why he said it.

Can you just sum it up briefly? I can't really debate with Mr. Vidal.

Like I said, that was the opinion of one homosexual on gay marriage. You dont have to like it or even agree with it.

What he said wasn't an opinion, though. What he said was straight out false. He said real gays don't desire marriage, which is not the case at all.

 

[MobBoss]

Of course they do. All the science says homosexuality is natural. Born, not made.

No. Actually, a lot of it (maybe even a majority of the factors of why it occurs) may indeed be natural, but not necessarily genetic, but rather behaviorial, or a combination of both.

To be honest, the real reason it occurs is simply still a mystery. Genetic and neo-natal chemical studies on it can indicate a possible prevalence, but its not precisely repeatable, and even the guy who has done the most study of it science wise says there is a distinct possibility that behavior and other post-birth conditions could be major contributing factors.

I've never even heard of science that refutes that.

Then you havent read up on it to the length I have.

Only politics and religion. Some of which pretends to be science in the same way that the "intelligent design" liars do.

Actually, the study I am speaking about was the one about a correlation of possible finger length and order of birth indicating a possiblity of homosexual likelihood. That is, the hormonal chemicals tend to change in a womb from birth to birth, and as a result there could be a correlation to what order you were born in and how your fingers developed in length with your possibility of being gay.

But even this guy said essentially that they just dont know enough and that post birth behaviors and environments could still be a major factor, but who knows.

 

[Bei1052]

Of course they do. All the science says homosexuality is natural. Born, not made. I've never even heard of science that refutes that. Only politics and religion. Some of which pretends to be science in the same way that the "intelligent design" liars do.

Incorrect. People aren't born anything. Orientation is a human construct.

 

[Mango Elephant]

Nevermind.

 

[jeps]

Of course they do. All the science says homosexuality is natural. Born, not made. I've never even heard of science that refutes that. Only politics and religion. Some of which pretends to be science in the same way that the "intelligent design" liars do.

I can 100% guarantee you are wrong. at most, around 50% of GOOD science says that homosexuality is naturally born into people.

Remember, nature vs. nurture, and science doesn't always agree.

If it was 100% genetic, identical twins would always be either TRULY gay or TRULY straight (remember, there are a significant number of people who are straight only because they will not LET themselves be gay). This is not the case. Based on studies I've seen on the internet (cannot say they are authoritative, if I get more into the debate I will go to scientific journals), there is approximately a 52-55% correlation for male identical twins both being gay, and 48% for females both being lesbian.

 

[Cutlass]

Incorrect. People aren't born anything. Orientation is a human construct.

While it's true that the mechanism remains unproven. It also remains true that people are born gay. Or they are not born gay. There is no becoming gay afterward do to choices.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't do that for sympathy. Homophobes are really the only thing that really piss me off. I could never be friends with one.

As long as you realize what a true homophobe is, then great. But simply being against gay marriage doesnt make one a homophobe. Here is a good test: Anyone that is a member of the WBC: homophobe. Your average person voting yes for prop 8: not a homophobe.

Carry on.

Can you just sum it up briefly? I can't really debate with Mr. Vidal.

You have the internet. Develop those mad google skills like I do in finding such information. Where I read those comments was in a media interview with him, and while he is a very interesting person, I dont think he's a very pleasant person.

What he said wasn't an opinion, though. What he said was straight out false.

Nope. Try to set aside what you think you know. Because you may not realize it, but there are indeed homosexuals that dont believe in gay marriage and they do actually advocate against it.

So, its not false, its just that you cant accept that such people actually do exist.

He said real gays don't desire marriage, which is not the case at all.

Again, thats his opinion...and apparently in his little circle of gay-dom its not false at all.

 

[Cutlass]

I can 100% guarantee you are wrong. at most, around 50% of GOOD science says that homosexuality is naturally born into people.

Remember, nature vs. nurture, and science doesn't always agree.

If it was 100% genetic, identical twins would always be either TRULY gay or TRULY straight (remember, there are a significant number of people who are straight only because they will not LET themselves be gay). This is not the case. Based on studies I've seen on the internet (cannot say they are authoritative, if I get more into the debate I will go to scientific journals), there is approximately a 52-55% correlation for male identical twins both being gay, and 48% for females both being lesbian.

Known genetics does not have definitive proof. However, there is 0% evidence for gayness being a choice. So regardless of genetics, it's still 100% born.

 

[MobBoss]

I can 100% guarantee you are wrong. at most, around 50% of GOOD science says that homosexuality is naturally born into people.

Remember, nature vs. nurture, and science doesn't always agree.

Ouch...this isnt going good for you Cutlass.

While it's true that the mechanism remains unproven.
It also remains true that people are born gay.

If its unproven, how do you know that?

Kinda painting yourself into the proverbial logic corner there, Cutlass. You may want to rethink your position here.

 

[MobBoss]

However, there is 0% evidence for gayness being a choice.

As I pointed out that evidence is all around us on a daily basis as we see people making choices on their sexuality all the time. To say what you say is to simply ignore reality.

So regardless of genetics, it's still 100% born.

No, since behavioral/environmental issues can also affect the situation post birth to determine sexuality, its not clear that its 100% born.

Tell you what, can you point me to a good study that has found that gay gene to prove that its 100% born?

 

[Mango Elephant]

As long as you realize what a true homophobe is, then great. But simply being against gay marriage doesnt make one a homophobe. Here is a good test: Anyone that is a member of the WBC: homophobe. Your average person voting yes for prop 8: not a homophobe.

Carry on.

I wouldn't call you a homophobe. Some people on here I would call that.

You have the internet. Develop those mad google skills like I do in finding such information. Where I read those comments was in a media interview with him, and while he is a very interesting person, I dont think he's a very pleasant person.

Basically, all I found was Vidal saying straight marriages are screwed up anyways, why would gays want a part in that? You don't agree with this, I think, since you have a wife. Can you direct me to what interview you were talking about?

Nope. Try to set aside what you think you know. Because you may not realize it, but there are indeed homosexuals that dont believe in gay marriage and they do actually advocate against it.

What he said was real gays would be against gay marriage. But real gay people do want gay marriage. He can't speak for real gay people.

Just in case you can't tell, him saying that all real gay people don't want gay marriage is false. He can have an opinion, but when he says that all real gay people have his opinion that is false.

 

[jeps]

Known genetics does not have definitive proof. However, there is 0% evidence for gayness being a choice. So regardless of genetics, it's still 100% born.

no conclusive evidence means no conclusions can be drawn, not that the option without evidence is necessarily false.

however, mobboss, can you please explain to me how two homosexuals marrying each other affects you personally? that is really the only way I can see someone legitimately being against gay marriage.