deity aw 3

[Habitus]

@Everybody whoes faced their first AI stack attack

Spoiler :

Has anyone else noticed that unless you get the 4W2S city pretty early the AI skips it to attack the capitol instead? The only time so far the first AI stack has attacked it is when i tried a worker - settler opening

 

[Kid R]

@habitus

Spoiler :

Yes the same happened to me - Charlie seems to be a cagey customer. Even when I tried settling the city in the jungle with 3 defending skirms he walked his forces around till he was sure he had enough to take it. I could not get any more guys through to reinforce from the capital, and it's such a sucky site it couldn't build any itself.

And I was going heavy on skirmisher production right from the start - good luck to those who built the great wall instead

Edit: I take that back slightly, I had 2 other skirms out patrolling/fogbusting who would not have been needed with the gwall.

 

[ben-jammin]

about early AI behaviour

Spoiler :

I found the AI quite bizarre. Stacks would spend quite a while moving around seemingly at random before suiciding. A single swordsman took up a spot east of the capital in a forest and then never moved from there. They pillaged my road, farm, and camp on the ivory but NEVER touched a cottage i built on a FP. I mean wouldn't even stand on that tile, I was able to work it the whole time. Also strange was that I was able to get my worker to rebuild the camp 2 turns at a time with the enemy stacks out of range and they never re-pillaged it. They seemed to attack both cities equally, though I quit when my first city was a turn away from falling to the massive elepult stacks that showed up.

I was wondering if building two separate roaded routes to the hill city would have resulted in the AI destroying roads on both, or just one. Because it was awkward reinforcing the second city with the stacks all mostly hanging out south of the second city, with my original road connection running through their position.

 

[Habitus]

@ben-jammin

Spoiler :

The AI sometimes uses a choke strategy trying to slow up down. I'll be guessing thats what they are doing, usually the sit on a resource/forest and attack the odd thing that comes nearby.

I think i may run a game in debug mode (given up winning this after about 7 tries, my deity play isn't good enough to win it normally unless i get really lucky ). Then i can check out what script the AI is using for stacks/units and dig in code to see why it picks cities/tactics. Should be helpful for the more experienced players

 

[whats a navy]

I've tried 4 times so far and none have gone so well.

Spoiler :

1st try I settled my block city as the corn/flood plain city but I think city by banana/dye/sugar (jungle block) is better. The stacks mostly suicide on that city but when corn block is used some stack go for the cap. I used jungle block in my last attempt, 4, because I used my warrior to fogbust around the area so no barb city spawned unlike my other attempts and it allowed me to develop my back cities better.
I had to settle jungle block as my third city in order to get there in time before Charlie got the city

 

[obsolete]

I'm pretty sure that with the right start and better positioning "x" of the Inca has a much better shot at winning a deity AW then Wang Kon of the Mali.

On a pangaea map? I don't think that's going to work very well.

I did some experimentation with que rushes years ago on deity, and they basically needed all the luck in the world and 100 & 1 things to go just right for them.... and then some.

Anyone who tries a que rush on deity I believe deserves to lose

Personally, my favourite leader has always been Sitting Bull, but Snaaty always felt Churchill was better.

 

[Dirk1302]

On normal deity a Q rush can be effective i think but even than it's a bit circumstancial. It's not needed in most cases as well as Huyna is strong enough without the Q rush. On AW i think it'll be difficult to defend the acquired land, would like to see that actually.

Bull vs Churchill is a bit complicated,

Normal deity

Basically it's

Charismatic vs philosophical both very strong, slightly prefer charismatic myself as 2 early happy can make all the difference if you have a lot of food around. With not so much food philo is better as you can still crank out that first scientist then return to working what is available food wise.

Totem vs Stock is unclear Totem can be very valuable or useless
Dog>>Red coat for early barb protection

So Bull with a slight margin

Not so clear in AW then

Char >> philo you certainly benefit from the extra promo's, also the early happy is more important as you'll want to work cottages asap

Totem>>Stock, it more or less counteracts those char promo's (and then some)

Redcoat vs Dog is unclear. Dog is resourceless, it's very nice to have a metal unit if you don't have copper but dogs can't really kill those roaming archers with any consistency and with totem you'll be building archers 90% of the time i think. They kill those lone metal units the ais sometimes send though. Redcoats are rather useless normally but now if you make it this far they'll defend even better against the rifles/infantry the ais will throw at you.

Think i'd prefer Churchill here as the extra 2 happy is bound to make a big difference in this format.

 

[Habitus]

So Churchill of Mali over Sitting Bull of Mali as then i'd assume if unrestricted.

I think everyone agrees that Protective is the Number 1 trait to have in always war. Its paired with Spiritual, Expansive, Industrious, Charismatic, Imperialistic, Aggressive, Financial, Philosophical, and Creative. Financial and Charismatic are both good from commerce perpective in the early game (more from each cottage, or working more cottages respectfully), is Industrious worth trying as it gives a better chance at TGW/Oracle, both used to get a Great Spy which is important in AW?

For Civs, it basically the resourceless UU that are most intresting from a unit perspective (for consistant wins anyway), what UB would be useful, Totem Pole? Any others?

 

[Dirk1302]

^Financial is probably very important for these games as you lean on cottages so heavily. And until prove wrong by AZ i don't think you can cope without protective skirmishers.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I did some experimentation with que rushes years ago on deity, and they basically needed all the luck in the world and 100 & 1 things to go just right for them.... and then some.

Then you didn't do it right, watch the vid I posted. I'd say 75% of starts ( not counting isolated starts of course ) you can take out 1 civ gaining around 4+ cities by 2000 BC without building a settler.

I think this would be strong for AW, and according to a small amount of experimentation ( watch the vid ) it seems to be the case.

 

[ben-jammin]

On a pangaea map? I don't think that's going to work very well.

I did some experimentation with que rushes years ago on deity, and they basically needed all the luck in the world and 100 & 1 things to go just right for them.... and then some.

Anyone who tries a que rush on deity I believe deserves to lose

Personally, my favourite leader has always been Sitting Bull, but Snaaty always felt Churchill was better.

I realize you're a much better player than I, but how does a quecha rush rely so much on luck? Even a failed rush will still totally cripple your target and get you a bunch of free workers and city sites that they would have otherwise taken. quechas are hilariously overpowered considering how the AI fails completely to deal with them.

 

[Habitus]

I think its basically down to the fact that non-hill cities aren't very good in AW, so you should raze them and taking the hills you want isn't that easy with quechas. Also rushing 1 AI makes the game easier in the long run but short term you often don't have defense set up for when the other 5 AIs start throwing stacks at you. So the luck is basically, if the AI settles on a hills, then if you take them, and then if any are in a good place for defense of your earlier cities (ie a chokepoint) so you can get defenses up quickly and survive the early stacks by other AIs. As far as i can tell anyway

 

[Kid R]

3rd try, 225AD (feudalism!)

Spoiler :

City 2 (corn, floods) has cost a fortune to defend and is pretty much worthless because all its improvements were quickly pillaged, and about half the AI attackers have breezed past to the capital anyway. If I was just trying to survive I would have done better sticking with just the capital!

I think cottages are too dicey here, but these guys are good techers:



Military instructors with representation! 2 low-prob prophets were annoying though and a spy is a long shot now.

Other points:

Did no exploration to stay off the radar (map cheating really). It was just enough time to chop the gwall, oracle, and pyramids with 2 workers, before switching to skirmishers.

Gave about half the skirms CG promos and half drill. The CG ones seeem to be getting most action so perhaps it was the best promo for the initial phase. New units can now get drill 4 and are better promoted than all but the best couple of veterans.

Best defender: Recently this guy has become so strong he's doing most of the work now at that city.



Going from here if I can't use longbows to clear our land of pillaging/camping units I don't see a way out. Will probably raze the blue ex-barb city to the south in the next few turns before it gets too well established. After that I have no idea

 

[yatta77]

3rd try, 225AD (feudalism!)

Wow!
I have no idea if this is good enough or not for this challenge, but I'm Sincerely Impressed!

@Habitus

Spoiler :

Argiculture next as the nearby resources for the 2nd city as well as in your Capitol need it, skip AH thou and mine the pigs for now. After that masonry for TGW or head to Priesthood for Oracle. Build another skirmisher and then a settler I think. Note I'm still very new to AW so could be wrong

Thanks for the Feedback! Appreciated.
As I said I was mostly lurking in here, so I tried those 14 Turns (and I humbly quit right after seeing Dirk1302 Turn 35 spoiler) just to know the map and (try to) understand what you guys are talking about in here! (uhm... I have not troubles admitting that I'm definitively really ignorant on AW Deity issues ).

So, thanks anyways for telling me what the next steps in that game should be: I mean, nice to know!
But for me, I'll keep on lurking on this one.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[whats a navy]

I played to 25 BC. I think I played alright but this isn't my first go.

Spoiler :

I never seem to get it right the first time. This is my third attempt, first I didn't settle jungle block and my cap got assaulted, second I lost GW 2 turns before I would've had it. If I didn't have those games before this one I wouldn't have done as well and it feels like cheating, but its Deity AW so I could care less .

I got GW because I wanted my second city to be productive fast and I knew I wasn't in a rush to get it up. Next, what I believe is the key, I settled my jungle block city


All the AI units suicide on this city and my core cities aren't even scathed.

I got Feudalism in 25 BC where I stopped with spying


I focused EP on Cathy

Jungle Block has been awesome so far and I think it can hold this stack. My GG is winning at 100% odds. not 99.99 but 100.00


The banana had road was pillaged but for the first time in 1500 years a couple turns ago.

And here's my core of cities







Uploaded with ImageShack.us




I don't think I'm good enough to win though because I don't see how I can go on the offense.

 

[yatta77]

edit: pics don't work

Not sure this is the problem, just trying to help:

DO:

[IMG][B]http://[/B]images...

and DO NOT:

filename.JPG[COLOR="Red"][B]/[/B][/COLOR][IMG]

So http:// after the IMG tag, and no slash / after the .JPG extension.

Try it out, let me know if it still doesn't work.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[obsolete]

Even a failed rush will still totally cripple your target

A fail rush tends to cripple yourself, which puts you behind everyone else who already has a huge head-start.

quechas are hilariously overpowered

Arggg, I so do hate it when people have to keep using adverbs & adjectives like that for every UU on the forum.

 

[Snaaty]

@ whats´s a navy:
i would be interested in your save and some pics. your description looks promising

Spoiler :

getting feuda 25 bc is great, it really should allow you now to prepare some offensive action (postinga save and pics, im sure you will get enough infos/help for this to try it out yourself)

@ kid r:

Spoiler :

it would be interesting to see how long you can hold out with only 2 cities, so it would be great if you would play it out a bit more. i hope that what´s a navy will post his save and some pics to compare to your try, since it seems he did settle more cities and blocked in the jungle

@ obs:
pm me when you have a bit more time again and we can resume the teamer

 

[ben-jammin]

A fail rush tends to cripple yourself, which puts you behind everyone else who already has a huge head-start.


Arggg, I so do hate it when people have to keep using adverbs & adjectives like that for every UU on the forum.

I know a failed rush will set you back, but a failed quecha rush isnt nearly as bad as a failed anything else rush. They're cheap and you can build them immediately and they trump the only units the AI can respond with. They can't stop you from pillaging any bronze or horses they might get. Even a failed rush should net you some workers, so you're not totally crippled. That isn't overpowered? Even just the number you'd normally build to fogbust should usually take an early secondary city. All the other really powerful UUs other than the fast worker at least require some waiting and a bit of luck for the resource.

 

[Cusanus]

The problem with Qrushing (and any other form of rushing) in AW is that you attack ONE enemy - all the others don't suffer at all.
On the contrary, rushing one enemy increases the risk of another AI settling all the land your victim couldn't claim, thus becoming far more dangerous than two smaller enemies would have been.

I guess there should be situations in which Qrushing is a great option. E.g., your capital blocks off a big peninsula with exactly one AI on it - crush that poor bastard, claim his land and yours, win.
But even in this case, it feels dangerous. You can't protect your capital with Quechuas, you need archers for that - but when the other AI's come knocking at the door with a few axes and swords, you will be wishing for some skirmishers instead.
Of course, if the size of your empire gives you early longbows and your archers can survive this long, everything's fine...