Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

@Pedro78 looking great, 1100 AD attack. So the lack of infrastructure etc didn't really hurt you that much. Somewhere you mentioned that you played a few plains iso maps etc. What is your strategy on a map without rivers, have you managed to find a good approach there?

@Fippy Currency seems to be working really good here. Hmm, I am surprised, never thought about teching that in iso. Maybe just Alphabet would bring even better results?

Btw can you explain how you used the 1-pop whips in the beginning? You mentioned a whip for 1st worker... but if you tech Mining-BW the worker is finished already when you reach BW, or which tiles did you work? Hmm, I tried to replicate the timing, must be doing something wrong.
 
@Fippy I looked at your saves, that Currency thing bugs me. Quite impressive. Need to do some maths, will wrap my game up and rethink everything.

@Lain

Infrastructure wasn't actually THAT bad. I had two forges when I reached Optics, and later on I priorized infrastructure in the less developped cities (Kyoto was whipped a lot between T130 and T170). The newly settled cities were whipped severely as soon as forges were up. If I wanted to attack only one AI I would have skipped forges there, but I planned to keep rolling with Rifles.

About iso maps with no rivers. Stone=Mids. Marble=GLib+failgold. These cases are easy. Then there is the kind of map with a coastal start and some islands to settle. That's NP aswell because GLH will pay for everything. The maps that have no rivers and no marble/stone and no use for GLH are a nightmare. A good thing to do is to stay small -- Monarchy is useless if you don't have river tiles to cottage, and ideally get more than 2*GS. But it really depends on the map.

If you have very few rivers but good food and a good health cap then you can go for Monarchy+CoL, settle one GS, build an Academy and get to Optics this way. You'll have a strong capital and beaker rate eventually. No food+no rivers I don't know about. But Fippy's Currency thing makes me want to replay some "unwinnable" maps. Another thing is that there is always a couple of river tiles to get you to stuff like Monarchy or Currency, in the thousands of iso starts I've generated there were always at least 5-6 river tiles scattered around the island. So I'm pretty sure that every iso map is winnable with sufficient skill (and access to iron).

I rolled one map a few weeks ago. Haven't really played it (only the first ~50 turns). It's quite a bit harder than the current Toku game if you don't use the marble. I'll probably replay it once I'll have experimented with the Alpha/Currency thing. You might wanna take a look.
 

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Can we call this won? Really don't have the motivation to slog it out.. the map shape makes it particularly annoying. Would probably be 17XX conquest, maybe 16XX if I played really well.
Spoiler :

DscCSkL.jpg

ISK8FPa.jpg


5-10T to finish off Monty (have to make sure he doesn't capitulate to someone else, but shouldn't be too hard), 15T Wang, 15T Mansa, 5T Charly with some micro. Might even get Charly as a peacevassal if I can get him to friendly.

Been waiting for 20T for a Communism trade, Willy is teching it for me at light speed. Next up is golden age with SP switch, tech Artillery for Mansa (not needed for Wang with enough cannons).


Overall a tough start but a very easy mid-late game because of AI setup.

Now it's time to go study on the Currency thing and start a new game in a few days :)
 

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Big congrats on your win :)
AIs are bad at doing something against cannons.

Will make some pics for Lain shortly, about the 1 pop whips at start.

I think Alpha would have a hard time competing with maths + currency, another trade route adds ~6c / turn with 5 cities (library bonus) and building wealth works a bit better than research.
While it might work equal if limiting cities, the great benefit of currency would be that you now can afford settling nice river spots, or even river plains hills become good tiles with mines (5 value and no cottage growth time).

Maths chops are okay for Infra, and it's a better combo later when meeting AIs.
Might be able to keep some trading techs for other goodies, like a nice amount of gold.

I think this city reflects well why currency can be an option, 17.50 beakers + 6 wealth paying for maintenance.
I know there's still # of cities cost, but such places are much more affordable now.
 

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First worker options, assuming we build workboat with 3h and then grow to size 2 (3 turns).
Spoiler :
worker1-jpg.483527
I now build worker for 6t = 30h for whipping. Then 3t warrior while growing a bit.
Gives us this screenie after revolt + whip
Spoiler :
worker-2-jpg.483528
Worker goes chopping, and we put that into our settler.
Spoiler :
settler-jpg.483529
Next turn i finish warrior, and worker goes on forest 2s (closer for road building than other forests).
At turn 33 i have 70h for whipping my settler (worker started road towards copper city).
Spoiler :
settler-2-jpg.483530
Good strat? No idea, just what i used ;)
 

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- Currency and Alpha in isolation -
To anyone lazy to read the whole "boring stuff", you can simply jump to the conclusions highlited in red ;)
Maths+Currency=915:science:
Alpha=422:science:

Assuming that you have 5 cities and can dedicate 20:hammers: per turn to building :science: or :gold: :
  • Currency brings 20:gold: + 5:commerce: = 31:science: (assuming that you have libraries everywhere, which is not always the case) and pays for itself in 29.5 turns
  • Alpha brings 20:science: and pays for itself in 21 turns
If you don't go for Monarchy, it's reasonable to assume that you can reach Alpha 10 turns earlier than Currency. Thus, we have:

T+0 = Alpha date
T+10 = Currency date
T+21 = date at which Alpha has paid for itself
T+41 = date at which Currency has paid for itself

This means that Currency would only beat Alpha on T+77

Of course these figures can vary between games, but the basic thing is that Alpha is far superior to Currency (in iso)
Wasn't obvious at first glance and can be a bit hard to fathom as we're so used to Currency being "superior" to Alpha in "normal" games.

Now, when should you tech Alpha in iso? That's a bit tougher.
  • Building research means you're not building infrastructure. Now of course you don't need infrastructure during the iso part of the game, but later on you're better off when you don't have to whip it. However, the fact remains that it's usually better to build :science: / :gold:and whip infra, because you can't whip :science: / :gold:
  • But the thing is you don't want to tech Alpha, be a single turn earlier to Optics - i.e. Astro - and having "wasted" 422:hammers: on paying for Alpha
To get an idea of the threshold that has to be reached for Alpha to be profitable, we can make the reasonable assumption that 1:hammers: spent on infrastructure equals 0.5:science:. This is reasonable because whipping infra later is twice as efficient, but you always build :science: at the same rate.
Let's say that 1T earlier Astro=100:science: (a reasonable assumption because you'll be able to get the good res for gpt trades one turn earlier)

Now let's say you're averaging 100:science: per turn stable upon reaching Optics. This means that if Alpha pays for itself+200:science:, you'll be 2T earlier to Astro and gain the 200:science: that come with it, netting you a 400:science: total gain. On the other side, you'll only have "wasted" 622:hammers:=311:science: on slow-building infrastructure. So you already have a big net gain.

Considering all the above, it's safe to say that it is worth it to tech Alphabet when isolated if you can generate an extra 600:science: by building science before you reach Optics.

Edit: Be careful about the definition of "extra" beakers. Working a grass mine and building :science: instead of working a grass cottage, over 30 turns, is only 40 "extra" beakers, even though you've generated 90:science: through hammers.
Hope it was clear enough :)
 
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Good strat? No idea, just what i used ;)
Hmm if you mine the Sheep, you have the settler out by T38 but have one more warrior and are @size3 so I'm pretty sure it's better (even though you have to build a warrior for 1T @size3, but that's the cost of being safe). The +2h from mining the Sheep are just too good to miss out on, especially as you'll be building more workers/settlers before you start growing, so you can have your workers do something else than pasturing for a while after AH.

If the sheep wasn't on a hill I think your strategy would be good. I don't like having only 2 warriors, though -- having one more can prevent a lot of barbs from spawning.

:)
 
Wow, a lot of great input. Will have to think about it. Thanks a lot for the screenshots Fippy, now I understand.

Nice thoughts on Alpha/Currency, Pedro. Also, your game went really well, congrats :thumbsup:

I am playing some starts at the moment, still more concerned about the early stuff, identifying right approach. Here, for example... how would you play this until T50?

Also: Monarchy yes/no? Probably harder to justify with a CHA leader. But I think that Alphabet could work well here, whatcha think? Would reach it early enough.

Nevermind my exploration skills, the bane of my existence.
 

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I think Alpha vs. currency needs more example games, while it's expensive it's also more useful (maths chops for Infra or settlers i.e.) :)

Sally's secret garden, what a nice name for an evil map :eek:
T36
Spoiler :
Wondering if i should even tech mining, for those plains hills? Lakes are nice to have now.
Built worker first despite only roads to do, no 3f growth tile. Hunting for AH, then Archery and Fishing.
Stoniehenge until size 2, dislike building warris with archery if we can get some gold.
Looking at Lain's map now, while waiting for tech opinions..i think they are interesting.
(yup marble will be ignored ofc, i think with TOA failgold this would get a good step easier)
 

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Okay, Lain's map feels like paradise garden compared to Pedro's map ;)
Hmm Myst is needed, one small step towards Mona..no idea tbh, just +2 from Cha and tile sharing would be fine too probably.

Might decide against Alpha here, other cities than cap are green cottage, food & scientist places imo, not many hammers. And cap has a nice future (but not many forests), so building Infra as techs are unlocked makes sense.
 
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I don't feel quite mentally ready to play the Sally map right now, need to play another iso first.

About the Nappy game -
Spoiler :

Very nice starting area, then a bunch of crap to the south and then some mysterious riverland even further south, probably covered in jungle. Need to explore a bit more to decide whether it's worth settling or not. Right now I don't see a clear tech path after Writing, but there is still 15+ turns where no decision needs to be taken so that's alright.
 

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About the Sally game -
Spoiler :

You'll want BW at some point to get access to these BFC grasslands and to develop the river city(ies). But I'd definitely go Pottery before Mining. Maybe squeeze in Writing aswell.

Right now I think it would be best to split the river between 2 cities (share the Pig), get the clam with another one. Then tech Alpha and go straight for Optics. I don't think getting there will be the main problem. The main problem is if you can't get good trades after Astro: you can't get to Steel with 100bpt... Need to think.
 
@Lain I looked at your Nappy save -
Spoiler :

  • Weird settler move. First I don't like to move away from fresh water when the capital has some cottageable land and a half-decent growth potential. In this case, it can still be good to settle on a PH without fresh water if early hammers are a big bottleneck, which is definitely not the case here. Another very important thing is that you've moved your capital closer to the coast instead of staying/moving inland, which is pretty bad even in a normal game. The extra hammer from the PH is nice but here it comes with too many downsides. Lucky you happened to have that fish, which kinda pays for the worse position.
  • Building two chariots slowed you down a lot. One is usually enough if you fogbust with warriors. Your initial settlements did probably hurt you quite a bit there (I didn't build a chariot yet, will be needed pretty soon.. didn't even get lucky with barbs as I lost my initial warrior to a Panther @91% odds on T10 or so)
  • Why did you build that farm - extra worker turns early on?
Now you can probably settle the Sheep spot + one city 3S of Paris, tech Alpha and then beeline Optics, ignoring the rest of the island. This would give you very early Astro but a crappy tech rate and a very hard game if you can't get the right trades early on (maybe you'll be able to trade for Gunpowder @500AD and the game will be easy, but you might aswell have to self-tech every tech on the way to Steel, in which case the game might become very hard).

OTOH there's a river to the south, so it's probably worth it to settle there, especially with an ORG leader. Would mean a bit later Optics, but a much stronger position overall. Your initial settling doesn't help with that, not sure what to do next..


Btw, a bit OT, but @Fippy are you playing with BlueMarble? How does this affect the saves/gameplay?
 
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@Pedro78

Yes, had a few worker turns left, so I built a farm. Hmm good thoughts about (not) moving settler.

Barbs are a big problem for me, I probably don't fogbust well enough and then run into troubles. My warriors always fail. Would really like to know how you move your warriors. Usually I just lose one and then there is a negative chain reaction. Barbs break through, I have to retreat with everyone to defend cities, more barbs spawn etc.

Hm, I never lost a game where I reach ~300 AD Optics. Of course it can still be tough later, but UN victory should always be possible, even if cannon attack comes in 1300 AD or something stupid like that. But I lost a few games where I reached Optics in 700+ AD :D. So I am more worried about that.

From testing a bit I concluded that CoL ... sucks. Very rarely would I choose that. With lots of food I would prefer Alphabet + Monarchy combination... takes so long to set up CoL, switch into caste system, then you can't whip granary/lighthouse... so annoying. Maybe with a leader like Gandhi it's better? But with someone like Tokugawa ....

Might continue the Nappy game a bit.
 
1 AD

Obligatory fail settle, ruining fish. Apart from that looking fine? Looks like a drafting game :D

What is the best way of managing a city like this? Bother with farms or not?

Spoiler :




Some other micro questions...

1) Here I waited for overflow from 2-pop worker whip... for hammers into granary -> finish with a chop. Good idea?

Spoiler :




2) Finish chopping granary at size 1, or improve sheep asap?

Spoiler :


 

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Looks like improving sheep first would work better, cos it's 4 turns until granary finishes with chop and bin already looks almost half full?
Also i think you could save the forest, granary should be in time at size 2 without chop :)

In Orleans i think most depends on your plans for the city, sometimes in Iso i shy away from whipping cottage cities and let them grow without granary (cos it's limited happy anyways).
If Paris can cover expansion units, would be also nice to keep them.
 
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Looks like you're in a good position :)

What is the best way of managing a city like this? Bother with farms or not?
Depends on the available worker turns. But if you have the necessary worker turns, then the more farms the better (replace them with cottages when infra is up or city is grown)

Here I waited for overflow from 2-pop worker whip... for hammers into granary -> finish with a chop. Good idea?
Unless you're really hurting for more workers, it's much better to 2whip the granary and later 2whip the worker. Especially with a CHA leader. Unless you can chop a forest to complete the granary at size 2 ofc.

2) Finish chopping granary at size 1, or improve sheep asap?
Improve Sheep first and whip granary 2-1 is best I think

Looks like a drafting game :D
Not sure if you're only saying that because you have a lot of cottages, but I don't find drafting very useful for the first assault in iso. Mostly because you don't usually have Nationalism by the time you start pumping out units, and it's definitely not worth self-teching it. Plus, assuming that the AI you're attacking doesn't have rifles yet, it's usually much better to attack with Cannons+Maces than to wait for Rifles. Unless you're doing 600+ bpt pre-Steel which I doubt will happen in this game. Drafting is however very good if you tech Rifling during your first war and reinforce / start another war with drafted Rifles and a few cannons. Allows to get a lot of units without hampering research too much.

Not sure what your problem was with barbs (settling towards the sea definitely did make it harder), maybe you should detail your early warrior moves a bit more so we can maybe spot the issue :)

I don't think I'll continue the Nappy game, I'd rather play some quick conquest pangaea game right now, kinda disgusted by playing iso atm. Will most likely join the next game (and wrap my goddamn Sally game up in the other thread so I can fire up a new one :wallbash:)
 
Tried the Sally map further, but it's boring tbh.
1 happy resi would have done wonders for testing more stuff (similar to the Toku map, which i found very interesting).
Without you are stuck with using monarchy or annoyingly small cities, would be nothing new.
 
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