Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[sossos]

@Lain

I will follow you. I'm also thinking about isolation map this month.

BTW, is cultural victory acceptable?

 

[Lain]

Hi Sossos . Sure, all types of victories should be allowed. I don't know much about cultural victories myself, but I would be happy to learn more about that. Looking forward to see your attempt, no matter if cultural or any other.

 

[Fippy]

I would be very tempted to make use of..

Spoiler :

marble in this one, Great Lib + NE for extra scientists allows bulbing Machinery too (most expensive Astro tech, needs Aest thou but that would be nps then )

Thinking about Monarchy alternatives..hmm difficult with no Cha and only Jumbos as happy resi. Warriors start getting expensive, but i guess there's not much you can do.
Reli path with Philo seems like a too big detour, if CoL and Caste are not really needed.

Spirit of this series will be beating the toughest maps thou, so playing as if there was no marble?

 

[Rusten]

@Lain I think I would almost always research optics+astro early. What I mean is that I would normally tech something like currency, calendar, literature etc first. It depends on the resources and land available. Sometimes you have a bunch of calendar resources for instance. But in this game I just went straight for it ignoring everything in the upper tree after writing which is rare. A complete beeline.

Trade routes and the possibility to gang up on a weak AI is too good to pass up. Passively waiting around to be found is not adviced.

 

[Pangaea]

I'm not truly a Deity player, so don't think I'll throw my hat in the ring here - at least yet - but will follow with interest. I'm sure there are heaps to be learnt from you guys

Also...

In pursuit of Deity greatness (and my goal of 100 wins in a row, playing random fractal maps)

 

[Lain]

So here is my playthrough until Astro. In future maps I will play slower and cover my own checkpoints more thoroughly. Since I didn't have this thread in mind when I started playing this particular map, I was a bit further ahead already. I will still try to cover everything in one big update now. From here on there will be more details.

680 AD

Spoiler :

Since my winrate on Deity Isolation isn't that great, I went for the GLH. With learning in mind, I probably shouldn't have done that. Since it helped cover the wrong decisions I made in this game and made sure I still have a shot at winning later. But I have no illusions, many mistakes were made here.

I teched: Mining -> BW -> Sailing -> Masonry -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing. Turned off research and collected 300 gold while getting up two libraries. 4th city came quite late since barbs caused me some trouble so I am not even taking full advantage of the GLH at the moment. But I settled it next turn.



I continued with Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Monarchy to solve my (un)happiness issues and grow the capital to a worthy size. Note that I have more settlers ready, but barbs are storming the little chokepoint I created. Soon I expanded to 6 cities. Generally my city placement has been highly questionable for the most part.



After Monarchy I somehow decided to tech Code of Laws to help with GPP production, but with better planning this wouldn't have been needed at all. So a genuinely bad decision. At 1 AD I also have Mathematics and Iron Working. I was quite late to settle the jumbo area. I still need Metal Casting, Compass and Machinery to free up the necessary bulbs.



Being so worried about generating the necessary GS for the Astro bulb, I didn't build an academy and just hoarded the GS I got. I got three of them from three different cities.

I bulbed Optics at 500 AD (since Machinery only came in 475 AD) and still had to wait a few turns for GS #3 to finish Astronomy in 640 AD. Only met 2 AI so far, Civil Service just came in. But due to the lack of academy and atrocious city developments my beaker rate is a joke. Even more so when you consider that I have the GLH here. The reason for this is simple:

I only have 2 cottages, 1 hamlet, 1 village and 1 town in my whole empire. Rusten has 15 villages alone and already a better tech rate even without Civil Service. So with GLH it's not inconceivable that he might just have twice the beaker output I do at this stage. My thinking was to work fin-coast for the most part and take someone out before cottages matter. But the timing was all wrong and I would have benefited a lot by building for the future (build academy, work cottages). Settling the rich jungle-land as late as I did also was a bad decision all around, especially with GLH. My cities are also smaller and worse developed, which has partially to do with bad placements aswell. At least I can see very clearly what went wrong and realizing that is the first step to improvement.



So it's all a bit depressing to be honest. But even playing as badly as I did, the game is not lost (even though it almost feels that way). Many years later I managed to reach a respectable position with a shot at winning the game. Even though with a different leader and/or without the GLH it might have been gg with all the mistakes already committed. So I can promise some serious fight here and will try to win despite all this. Domination or UN, nothing too cheesy.

Looking at the much superior play from Rusten here, it's hard for me to fathom how I won 26 Deity games in a row a few months ago (even though only 2 of them were isolated ones). But it also fills me with hope and ambition, as I can see just how much I can still improve and certainly, I could one day win even more games in a row by doing so . Just to finish on a bright note here while I rather feel like deinstalling the game and playing Tetris instead .

But well, it's supposed to be educational and some personal embarrassments are a small price to pay for that I suppose. Even still, feels bad man.

 

[Fippy]

GLH is not that great on this map anyways, with marble Aest + Literature has much better benefits.
Sure you get some actually good routes after Astro, but it's not even close to what good gp production can do for you much earlier.

I think you are also troubling yourself too much with winning streaks, if you allow me that comment
The real challenges can be found in gotm, HoF, sgotm, team play or mp.
All those are also great for learning. And fun too..!
Before taking part in those, there were many things my normal deity games never showed me.
I probably was not better than your play here, no need for any depression feelings.
Sorry if you think those comments are not..suited, but i think you need a friendly clap into the right direction about how you can gain more fun playing

 

[Lain]

Would you go for Aest-Lit even before Monarchy then? Because otherwise I think it's easy to lose Glib with a "slow" start. Happy cap was a big problem and I didn't want to delay Monarchy here. Or maybe losing Glib is not a big deal, just National Epic is already great? And some failgold is nice.

Winning streaks is just a silly thing I do for motivation . Generally I write a lot of stuff not to be taken 100% seriously. But otherwise it's hard for me to finish games, because like here after Astro it's a lot of "work" with shipping etc. Usually pretty tedious. But when I had 20 wins in a row, I had real adrenaline rushes every turn. It was exciting and I REALLY didn't want to lose. I was scared to continue the game, all the time thinking about what I can do to increase chances. When I felt low concentration, I quit the game. I did Meditation exercises to calm the nerves before playing a hard turnset. When I win, it is a really amazing feeling. When I lose I go into exile like Yoda and come back stronger some day . Like in a good story, the protagonist has to taste hell before he can accomplish his goals and find fulfillment. We don't want to watch a story where someone fails and just says "Who cares? I go eat pizza now, it doesn't matter anyway, pff."

Not sure if it's the best approach, but I have lots of fun this way. Like, in an exciting and nerve-wrecking way, not the kind of chilled and "enjoyable" fun maybe . Contrast of depression and success is the key for me. This is the only video game I play. But I take everything very seriously, because otherwise I can't push myself. And I need some kind of goal to keep going. Just playing random maps here and there I would quit very soon. Dedication. Madness.

I agree that SGs and stuff would be a nice (better) source for improvement, but I am more the lonely wolf kind of guy and don't fit very well in teams. Also I play too quickly at times, many of my wins come from willpower in the end where I fail 3x and still win somehow (like here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deitymania-2-lincoln.602160/). To be successful in Team Games etc I would need a different mentality. For the HoF I have a very strong and irrational dislike.

Planning to make some videos soon, hope it can be fun and educational for others to watch my Deity style maybe . Probably fun to watch how I meltdown when stuff goes wrong. AZ's reactions about 99% combat losses or getting a random DoW are nothing against that. Another thing I might do to find myself some motivation.

But of course, you are right with everything you say and your advice and comments are much appreciated every time. I will think about some of the things you said . Please help me achieve Civ 4 greatness.

 

[Fippy]

Oh okay

Hmm if i can secure those Jumbos, i might not tech Mona at all.
Cities are smaller, but most of what you work are coastal tiles so you would not be losing much (if any) cottage growth.

It's a high price for those sea tiles, maybe too high.
Mona itself tech cost, 1t Anarchy, extra warriors, bigger cities also cost a bit more extra. Overall those costs add up.
I think size 6 in Cap and 5 in other cities would be just at a limit that i could work with.
Also allows not having to worry about lighthouses or even granaries too much early.

In return i would have to really hurry all expensive techs, bulbing Optics, Machinery & 2x Astro.
Then we have MC, Alpha for bulbs / research and Compass left as more expensive ones, rest should be managable.
Starting growth instead when happy trades can be made (and trade for Mona too ofc).
Those are all just feelings thou, no hard numbers.
But i know that if this map would have 2 happy resis, i would not even consider Mona.

 

[elmurcis]

For learning purposes tried another "that kind of map" with ~that area of land and with Marble going for GLiB early makes sense (thanks for note about Meditation so could use 2x Astro bulb)... GLH actually is weak without any other island to settle early (just +2 commerce per city for... many turns) but... its (almost) only wonder that player Can get with high success % (no need for stone/marble) if want and go for it (any other is very very very situational on Deity.. specially when playing with 17 AI like I usually do - have seen 2100 BC Pyramids built in same city where SH was done for example when got 3h stone start with lot of forests to chop )

 

[Rusten]

I don't agree with skipping monarchy on this map. The island has a lot of food, decent space for cottaging and we're financial. I don't like using military police for coast, but that's not happening here for the most part. At least with my city spacing. The only maps where I would skip monarchy woud be the god awful deserted tundra/desert islands which you can get on a really unlucky/poor fractal map, or the ones with A LOT of luxuries -- something like +4 happy (double gold/silver/gems or lots of calendar resources).

1 happy resource is nothing. Even 2 is not good enough IMO, at least if health allows to grow beyond it. Compass (harbors) makes a big difference this game (+3 health). Once astronomy is in they also help the trade routes.

 

[Rusten]

1270 AD:

Spoiler :

Managed to trade for CS 700 AD. Adopted bureaucracy but remained in slavery. Traded for HBR and started whipping out some WEs in cities who had grown to work coastal tiles. Once engineering was traded for trebs were the choice.
Plan: upgrade trebs to cannons and draft riflemen (with production supplement).

Trading went really well -- managed to obtain gunpowder (DeG), guilds (shaka) and banking+printing press (Pacal) without giving away education.
I could then postpone liberalism one turn away from completion and grab a good tech with it. It also gave me the time to tech economics first for the GM (trade mission).

Spoiler :

Which immediately allowed for a steel for scientific method trade with DeG.

1160 AD: Isabella has enough on her hands. Could be me, but I'm not waiting to find out. I have naval superiority and will attack her soon anyway so I DoW and bring some friends along.
Starting the war early might also rid me of her SoD before I invade. All yours Temujin!

Spoiler :

Feeling pretty safe as it stands. Isabella will be the source of both rich land and mutual military struggle points.

At the end of a GA at 1180 AD I adopt nationhood with 3T to go until rifling.

Upgrade my trebs around 1200 AD and prepare to invade Isabella. 2 drafted riflemen will join the Galleons (or EIs, rather) for the landing party.

Spoiler :

Tech situation:

Spoiler :

The AP won't save you this time.

Spoiler :

Some military stats and invasion progress: (20 rifles, 15 cannons, 8 WEs, 7 EIs, 4 frigates, 1 musketman)

Spoiler :

There's also a stack in the EIs outside of Salamanca -- will land next to Santiago next turn to grab it.

My cities are all at the happy limit due to drafting. I've also started ferrying over some warriors for MP in captured Spanish cities.

Spoiler :

Might trigger another GA once communism is in and swap back into bureaucracy. Vassalage is also a good option at this point. Depends on how long I want to continue with rifles or whether I want to tech to sooner infantry+artillery for the big sweep.
Didn't need to go for a weaker AI first this game as my position is already so strong.
Also, drafted riflemen are so cheap -- it's ridiculous.

 

[Pangaea]

Contrast of depression and success is the key for me.

This is OT and for that I am sorry, but I just want to comment on this, because I quite often see the word overused and misused.

Depression isn't having a tough time beating a game on the toughest difficulty setting (21 times in a row). Depression is not finding a reason to get up in the morning, not having the energy to get out of bed, thinking about ways to not live any more.

 

[Fippy]

Yep Pangaea, some of those stronger words actually triggered my reply to Lain earlier
But he's using them loose, as he explained.

I had a friend with depression, and yup ideally that word would not be so overused for small problems as it's an evil & serious disease.

 

[elmurcis]

I had a friend with depression, and yup ideally that word would not be so overused for small problems as it's an evil & serious disease.

Out of topic - have been there, had that... never going back - depression is nightmare and even Civ4 can't help to get out.. "New life", "new stuff to do" and good friend helped to get out and get back on track.
Frustration about losing game or forgetting to switch to Rep after Pyr done - huge disappointment and frustration about mistakes... but just take few stones, "break few windows" and done - back to new game

 

[Lain]

I study Psychology myself so I know about the seriousness of the condition, so apologies. I use the term (too) loosely since I hear or read papers about it all the time. Being exposed to it scientifically so much it's easy to become a bit desensitized there. Bit like cynical doctors "joking" about patients with each other too flippantly (cue Dr. Cox), doesn't come across very nicely though. No offence meant

 

[Rusten]

1430 AD:

Spoiler :

Spain is history. No vassaling of course as I want to maintain my good relationships.

Spoiler :

Units killed:

Spoiler :

Units lost:

Spoiler :

Seems fair.

I still have 30ish riflemen and 20ish cannons remaining. I'll use these to finish off Pacal who's already gone culture mode. He doesn't even have rifling so it will be easy.

International relations overall looking strong. Everybody is pleased and Genghis is close to friendly. Bribing him onto Pacal with me when I attack should seal it. From there on I will simply tech to space. I can start a war on the other continent if I want (bribe Toku on DeG) -- but probably not needed.

 

[Rusten]

@Lain
How far did you play?

Not much to add to your analysis. I think your city placement and relying on working coast are the two main mistakes.
Coast is almost never worth it, so question yourself every time you're working one of these tiles. You usually only do it short term if you're going to whip away the population later or unlock new tiles soon. Even with financial it's pretty weak.

 

[Lain]

@Rusten
Yeah working the coast was rather useless then. Would you generally cottage non-capital rivers in isolation, even without a financial leader? Seems the key to everything here was boosting the research rate and attacking early when nobody even has Rifles. Libbing Steel is a perfect move. I definitely learned a lesson about making use of the commerce that is available. I am generally a bit careless with that, relying too much on bulbs and taking someone out before I run out of steam. But in isolation, you are bound to run out of steam with my approach if techs like Steel and Rifling are needed rather early. Add in the "delay" by naval warfare and I am just nowhere quick enough. I am barely quick enough in normal games at it is.

I am a bit concerned about weaker starts now though. Tokugawa Isolation without rivers or something like that. I feel that everything becomes too slow and I don't see a clear path to victory in my mind right now. Building farms and hiring scientists or building wealth can't really do the trick, can it? Would you consider sending Samurais and Trebs or something like that? Or sit back and play catch up later once the cottages start to mature?

Did you build Oxford or the Globe Theatre here?

Anyways, my update to 1555 AD:

Spoiler :

I basically crawled my way to both Steel and Rifling. Actually won Lib, but had to take Nationalism from it. Missed Taj Mahal even though I was the first to Nationalism. Traded along the way which worked quite nicely, never falling behind. But also not getting ahead at the same time. For reference, Steel came 1190 AD and Rifling 1330 AD.

Then I whipped cannons and ships while drafting Rifles. The only AI I had any hopes of taking out was a 5-city-Pacal. He had Rifling already, but at least no Machine Guns or stuff like that.

My "fearsome" army 1430 AD upon declaration (talk about a late DoW)



I even got lucky and found myself fighting along De Gaulle who just happened to declare at the same time. He only landed with some trebs and maces, not really useful, but he provided some distraction and made my ships a bit safer with his Frigates.



1545 AD I managed to capitulate him by reducing him to the last city. Gave back one because of being swamped by Mongolian culture. Diplo situation looks reasonable, only De Gaulle turned out to be a monster and could threaten a victory here. Actually, I take that back. Might suffer a DoW from Genghis here because he hates Pacal. But well, he hates Izzy even more... I want to claim that Diplo could look a lot worse. I did my utmost to stop De Gaulle from capitulating Toku/Shaka. At some point he was kicking both of them. Also saved Pacal's butt earlier by bribing Genghis off so I could pick him up myself later.



1555 AD, my empire is in a sad state, but I will recover now and after trading for Steam Power from Pacal Assembly Line will be in sight. Also planning to get up Oxford now because I might have to go further down the tech tree to deal with De Gaulle here.

Tech situation:



I am only in the game because I found a weak Pacal to pick on and the tech pace is slow due to constant world wars.

PS: I am in Organized Religion to spread Buddhism. Not taking any chances about a AP victory by Izzy here.

 

[Rusten]

@Lain
I don't play that often anymore so the pool of isolated deity starts I played over the last 7 years has now risen to 1.
The games I do still play (gotm, MP, etc) are never isolated, thus it's hard to give general advice. Farms, mines and scientists can work on some maps. It's a very good way to deal with the limited happy/health cap. But when you are low on base commerce in favour of hammers you really want to get your hands on a wonder resource for the extra gold income. Be that marble, stone, ivory or gold.

Non-capital non-riverside non-financial cottages: Generally no, but it depends on what tiles the city has available and what the happy/health cap is.
I don't operate under an empire-wide on/off policy. They're better in certain types of cities.
Non-capital non-financial (river) cottages: Same answer. It depends on happy/health cap and the island in general.

I'd never sit back and wait with cottages. Wars are the number one advantage the human has over the AI. Take advantage!
Treb+samurai: Absolutely!

Making the most of the limited commerce available is indeed the most important aspect. Be that through farms+mines or cottages. This is the part of the game that you'll learn to love once the challenge of beating deity is no longer alluring. A must for MP pitboss games. MP and isolated starts are similar in the sense that you are left completely to your own devices in terms of revenue.

No globe or OU in my game. Universities+OU after dikes.