Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[MeowZeDung]

To 1 AD:
I took Lain's advice and went myst>poly>preisthood>monarchy>CoL next instead of math>currency>CoL. I didn't foresee how big of an issue happy cap would be, but with all the FIN cottages to work, we definitely want a large population, so thanks for the tip Lain! Academy has been built in Carthage, and Civil service will be in soon and I will revolt again to bureau. Then I will beeline optics and pick up currency while my caravels are exploring. One of the two silver tiles will be in my boundaries shortly to help with happiness as well.

I'm not sure about teching after Optics and Currency though. If it's still "early" enough I might try to lib Astronomy. If not, maybe picking up astro the old fashioned way and then teching toward steel along the bottom of the tech tree would be best.

I'm also not sure about getting an army together. If there ends up being iron on our continent I can start building maces at some point, preferably with vassalage/theocracy running. I think they would be enough to go along with cannons, but if not, grenadiers would be within reach shortly after steel. If no iron, I really don't know what to do. Rifles I suppose, but with what? Trebs?

Here's my empire and cities:

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

It does not "depend". Always whip as soon as possible unless you have a particular/clear reason not to. 1 is worth more than 1, even before granaries. Whip early, be it the first or 5th settler.

I have been preaching the same at every opportunity. I feel many players erroneously think of overflow as something lucrative, when in reality if you create overflow by whipping settlers/workers, you are merely transforming 1 into 1, as you note.

Not sure if i would sign "always whip asap"..
i think the right approach as usually will be "depends".

Interesting.

Sometimes you would like another worker after your settler, and can take more overflow cos the whipped city will hold growth on settler or worker.

I think I understand what you mean, but still, sometimes (usually?) you want that new city settled asap.

To summarize my thoughts:

Pre-granary i.e. very early in the game I'd nearly always whip settlers/workers asap because it's so much better to get them out now rather than say 3 turns later.

Post-granary i.e. later in the game there might be more cases when it's not that important to get that settler out right now (Fippy gives some examples on this), but with a granary that 1->1 is such a horrendous deal that whipping asap must be optimal imo.

There are some exceptions, but I feel they are pretty rare (like 5% of cases). Note that I am talking about whipping settlers/workers. I think the optimal time to whip buildings depends on a lot of factors (worked tiles, how useful the building is etc)

 

[unas876]

Obv if there's a great city spot waiting, it's usually right to whip asap. But not always the case

Thats what I was thinking in this case. You don't need too many cities on this map early I think. I was thinking about building more settlers/workers and I thought "what are these cities gonna do for me short-term?". Not much, I found. Thats why I was siding with Fippys approach here. I found that the cities might whip out some infrastructure, but I could do that later, which is what I'm doing. The infrastructure needs to be ready for when I'm at Optics, not before at least. I still haven't found the opportunity to continue unfortunately and I think I'm way behind the other people that tried it, but that was my approach anyway.

 

[sampsa]

@unas876 If I understand your post correctly, you are not talking about the same thing the rest of us are. I am talking about "do I whip this settler asap or do I maximize overflow" you are talking about "do I build a settler or not".

 

[El Bogus]

Everything was going fine when I popped gems in my capital...

Can someone explain why this is a bad thing? Just because of the Pyramids? Can the +1 happiness not compensate for the loss of one ?

 

[Rusten]

He's being facetious -- it's an incredible stroke of luck. It's good enough under normal circumstances, but in isolation the extra "free" happiness is massive.

 

[Rusten]

Just remove it using WB if you want to compare better with others. If you're worried about seeing things I can do it for you -- probably not playing this one anyway.

 

[Lain]

Are you going to finish the Boudica game, Rusten? Would be nice to see.

And since both of you are here right now... if you ever find the time, it would be amazing if you could show me how to approach a low commerce start in isolation (that Mao game, for example). Because my chance of beating that is about 1% and it's frustrating as hell. I don't even have a mental representation of how to beat it.

Fin cottages on a river are one thing, but no idea about that one.

(https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...rm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/page-10#post-14781785)

 

[Rusten]

Yes, I will try to get back into the Boudica game 1 week from now or so.
Do you have any other low commerce starts? Because I already remember looking at that one in the WB. More fun to play if I don't know the map.

 

[Lain]

Great, looking forward to it.

I will try to roll another low commerce start. Kind of obsessed with that one.

I guess there is no piece of advice you can give me to make me win that map immediately or to improve my understanding? You gave some pointers (CoL, use marble etc). But what is my source of beakers until I actually get CoL, Alphabet and failgold from marble. I have no happy cap to speak of, so Monarchy is the first tech to get in any case, right? But there are no good tiles to work. And maintenance kills me. I can't stay on 3 cities until 500 BC, but how do I pay for more? And by the time I get to Aesthetics (300 BC on a good day?), the marble wonders could already be gone.

Could you say how the empire is ideally supposed to look like at, say, 1000 BC? For example... x cities, each with library working 2 scientists. x cottages. Some rough sketch like that.

Basically, where is my research coming from and what to do about commerce. Just generally speaking. Some guidelines or playthroughs of that would be so valuable to have. Because normally there are trade routes and tech trading, so I never really had to learn about squeezing the most out of land like this on my own.

... Going to roll a low commerce start . I read you like playing Expansive, so I will use a leader with that trait.

 

[Rusten]

Did you settle a cottage city by the river without a food resource (plains hill)? It would probably be my 3rd city (2nd being pigs+horse).
Yes, it would be a city without a food resource when others are available, and yes, it would totally be worth it. I'll let you have a guess at the reasons why.

I love expansive, but it's not as good for isolated starts as you get very little back for the cheap granaries (early hammers for quick expansion does not help much).

 

[Lain]

River city without food didn't occur to me. I'll have to think about it. Pigs/Horses for 2nd city is clear. But what do you get in your first ring, horse or pigs? I feel that only pigs are competitive since a food-less 2nd city can't be afforded, but barbs can be a real issue with just warriors.

Do you skip Granaries in the early game in favor of libraries, since there is no happy cap? But ok we are expansive so not a big investment... I saw you doing that with Willem for cheap libraries at least.

So after rolling 50 starts I am starting to realize that the combination of isolation + low rivers + no floodplains is pretty rare. Not really surprising that I don't know how to play that.

Too bad I have no clue about map cooking. But I'll get it done somehow.

 

[Pangaea]

Rolled a map with Mehmed, and the first one actually turned out to be isolated. Could it suffice?

Spoiler :

If the above is too good...

Spoiler :

 

[El Bogus]

He's being facetious -- it's an incredible stroke of luck. It's good enough under normal circumstances, but in isolation the extra "free" happiness is massive.

Phew, I already thought I'm going crazy.

 

[Lain]

@Pangaea First one is too good, second one too bad . BFC desert is brutal.

Guess I'll just have to keep rolling. Think Rusten will be too busy this week anyway so there is time to find something. Requirements are a bit tough for a random generation though. Low commerce environment without early happiness resources. No FIN or CHA leader. A lot of food is fine. Would love to see CoL leverage.

Anyway, meanwhile I will try to win the Hannibal one first. Not like I can handle great isolation starts with confidence...

Edit: Think I have one. Natural, non-cooked. Way above my league. Whenever you are ready, Rusten. Every save would be much appreciated, or what about that LP you've been wanting to do? Would be amazing.

 

[kyuuan]

The Hannibal game: I snatched 2 important wonders: Mids, GreatLib. Found Taoism. Won the Liberalism race on 980AD and selected Astronomy. 4/6 Universities completed and expect Oxford in the next 10 turns. I dont think i optimized each turn enough but is that a good date or too slow compared to your games?

 

[Rusten]

@Lain I planned to wait, but I played the Portugal/Joao game to (400 AD) Optics today. Took as many saves as I could remember -- will just zip them together and upload on a different site later.
Have you played it yourself yet? If not I recommend doing so first.

 

[Lain]

I haven't played it yet. Currently duking out the Hannibal game... think I improved a bit, at least when playing with great land. Screenshot for proof.

Spoiler :

I think this is a respectable stack and attack date. For me at least.

I will play the Joao one myself before looking at your saves. Thanks so much for helping me (and others) to improve.

 

[Lain]

Here are some saves from a practice game I played a few days ago. Maybe there is some more advice you or somebody else (@BornInCantaloup?) want to give me before I go and fail the Joao game

Some things improved... GPP production for example. And I prepared for Optics (upgrading caravel, chopping one on the turn I reach Optics), so I am definitely learning something from your posts. Unfortunately other parts of my game still suck. 540 AD Optics on a map like that seems kind of slow.

I'd be particularly interested in the early part of the game. Is it right to get Granaries up like this before cottaging heavily? Writing came pretty late aswell. Hmm.

The evidence is clear: I need to reach "Practice Game C" before it becomes somewhat respectable. But I am motivated.

(Okay, Munich should be 1W. Somehow I miscounted the floodplains in its BFC)

 

[Rusten]

11 saves ranging from 2400 BC to 425 AD.