Deity Level Succession Game

[mackerel]

Are playahead spoilers like "the Americans DO NOT HAVE MAP MAKING" acceptable in these games? That seems like something the current player shouldn't know. It's like saying the Sioux will be on our doorstep with catapults in 5 turns; while it's a reasonable suspicion, certainty can change the course of play.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

No, I think playahead spoilers cross the line. In fact, I don't think anyone has ever done one in any of the games I've read. If we allowed it, Blasph23 would have had a much easier time replaying his turns.

"Testing" usually consists of recreating a situation, and playing out the results in a different game. If you are not quite sure about the "legitimacy" of a test, put the results between spoiler tags.

The information was obtainable on the current turn, but did require negotiations, something that is a permanent change. I don't think this spoiler will dramatically affect the game, but one such as "Americans will demand money upon contact, and will declare war if you don't give it" would have.

Playing around with the game should be limited to reversible actions if you are going to post results (and don't do anything that could potentially spoil your own turns, like massive amounts of exploration).

 

[Blasph23]

My bad I didn't notice Magic's post.
As for Prof. Garfield's "Back to the future", it's not that much of a spoiler, it's expectable that Americans would prefer trade/growth techs to anything else due to the civ type.

Another thing is, when I replayed my turns the first time, because the saves didn't work due to version differences, I knew Sioux would make contact so I replayed it enough times to get the same outcome as the first time - no contact in my last turn. Also I didn't tell anything about it to the next player as it sounded fair that way.

Anyway I'm going to play my turns today or tomorrow and see what we can get with those vans, Americans and republic.

EDIT: Another thing: are we going to use all the current vans on-board triremes to trade with Americans, or some with Carths too?

 

[mackerel]

Send everything to Washington, the payout is triple what you'll get from Carthage. Magic was well on the way to creating a ship chain capable of delivering 2 caravans per turn. Good luck!

 

[Blasph23]

(1) 50 BC: some iprb on caravans here and there; positioning the army against Sioux near Slim Butes. Switched Cadix to produce caravan.
(2) 25 BC: Republic discovered -> philosophy. Discoveries every 13 turns. Sioux move around a lot, Toledo builds van - only coal available, no demand -> chose food for wonder support, diplomat built in vigo, elephant at wounded knee fully repaired, Sioux move around, I contact them, demand tribute -> war. Lets play. Slim Butes razed by elephant (which went down to short red bar after the attack) then captured with phalanx but since it was size one - it's gone. 27g, Mathematics. Not bad. They ask for peace, I demand again, they withdraw units (wow one settler near malaga); exploring with horsemen, moving triremes. A couple of small iprbs here and there. Valencia works two coals now.
(3) 1 AD: Russians nearly completed Oracle. What a waste. Three Forks discovered near Malaga, at 116, 100. Sioux allow contact, I demand tribute - war. Moving forces; chariot upgraded to vet after an attack; Embassy established with Carths - they have 391 gold, 8 techs including WC which we don't have, and 6 cities. No contact with any other civ except us. They're researching Iron, their govt: despotism. IPRB again here and there, gold down to 63. Another food Van moved next to cordoba.
(4) 20 AD: Moscow builds Oracle, French abandon. Carths ask for contact, want to exchange warrior code for poly, refused, no otherdemands. Sioux move units over Slim Butes, chariot attacks Three Forks - razed then destroyed. 33g, no tech. Exploring with horsemen. Vigo switched to warrior for happiness control. Stony Lake discovered at 134, 108 with elephants. Caravans land on american land south of Washington.
(5) 40 AD: Valencia builds caravan -> food since no demand for coal and only our and Sioux cities want salt. Stony Lake's defender attacks the elephants and loses. One ele got vet. Retliation - empty city size 1, 40g, elephant repaired, moving to Lil' Bighorn and Cedar Creek from north and east. Sioux contact - peace. Demand tribute - ignore. Till next time, it's better to establish peace in this turn and avoid losing units with red HP bars. Vigo switched to diplomat for now. Some iprb. Vans deliver to Washington. Maxed trade for home cities. Madrid hides to Washington - 232g. Valadolid hides to Washington - 232g. Beakers full. Unfortunatelly there was around 3 turns left till the discovery after the first van, so I just went ahead and delivered the second. Gold 595. Some iprb - gold down to 479. Granada is about to grow - warrior sent from Barcelona. Saragossa will grow too, in 4 turns. Precautions taken. Techs given to Americans: Literacy, Republic, Masonry, Map Making. Maps Exchanged. Ship chain slowly being established; will have to go around the peninsula to reach Washington, so I we need 16 triremes overall to get 1 turn deliveries between Valadolid and Washington. 14 if we build and road a city at the 4 whale site north-northwest of Valadolid. Only 9 triremes if we don't go around the peninsula but this means deliveries to Washington will take 2 turns. It won't be my choice however.
(6) 60 AD: Philosophy discovered - Mono NOT AVAIALBLE. Damn cycle. Researching astro; discovered, then mono. Pamplona - Caravan (food since no strategic resource available at this time). Valladolid - trireme. Avila builds warrior -> diplomat to establish emb with Americans. Sioux contact - peace. Demand - ignore. Stalemate. Moving units to block Little Bighorn. IPRB a few vans - gold down to 373.
(7) 80 AD: As of now, only Barcelona and Avila supply hides. Not good. Toledo - food van. I suggest a city at 117 109 to block any eventual Sioux expansion via seas. Sioux still refuse to go to a war with us. Maybe that peace was a mistake. In the mean time science rate to 70%, tax 30%.
(8) 100 AD: Some unit relocation around Sioux territory. Moving warrior from Barcelona in anticipation of Saragossa rioting. Trireme uncovers fish for Bilbao, switched. Maybe destroying one or two offensive units will lower our power rating and Sioux will be easier to goad into war. Not sure if this would work, not willing to risk.
(9) 120 AD: Not much happens. Moving triremes to make a shippchain, moving elephants around Sioux cities. Some iprb and some settlers sent to make roads to Valladolid. Carths moving close to Vigo.
(10) 140 AD: Sioux ignore our feeble threats. Triremes moving to positions. Some caravans run around the roads, Barcelona's hides is on its way to Valladolid, some other vans unloaded on the American land.


780k population.
Sioux still peaceful.
Shipchain is around 2-3 turns from completion.
315 gold, 20 turns till next discovery, 200 shields toward future Mike.
13 active triremes, 1 is being built, several undemanded vans moving via triremes, some demanded too.
Some iprbs are due still in this turn if you feel like it, but nothing too important, except maybe the triremes.
Some diplomats still being produced, namely in Avila and Vigo. Two of our cities will grow and thus riot in the next turn - Malaga and Salamanca.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'll play next, probably tomorrow.

Unfortunate about Monotheism not being offered. Must be because we got Math from the Sioux.

 

[Jokemaster]

I'm sorry for the playahead spoiler, didn't knew it was not allowed. It won't happen again.

Disbanding a few offensive units will not affect our PR because it is only affected by citizens, techs and gold. Not sure about RMS however.

How many cities the Sioux have left? Some cities, in my opinion, should restart ICS (I'm talking about cities that have lots of unoccupied land near, like Malaga, which has a LOT of land unoccupied west. It is also important because of the possibility of Carthage settling there, IIRC)

 

[Prof. Garfield]

First thoughts:

There are several things to be accomplished. Building Mike’s and switching to republic are most important. Properly configuring the shipchain can wait until I’ve got the science to get Monotheism. Dealing with the Sioux is also high on the list, because some flexibility will be lost in foreign affairs when we switch to republic. Will probably leave them with Cedar Creek since that city doesn’t have ocean access. This means that I need to provoke a war to take Little Bighorn. I’d also like some more cities, and I’d like to send some diplomats to make contact with other nations. Will need triremes for the latter endeavour along with diplomats, and might as well send some settlers along for the ride.

Notice that a couple of cities are supporting two triremes. This will cause problems in Republic. Will have to build more cities and rehome units. In preparation for republic, I’ll only build settlers in size 4 cities, but I’ll probably send away most of the settlers currently working the land at home. Once we have Mike’s and republic, they’ll be easy to build.

Next OEDO years are 220 and 300. I’ll probably have a revolution in 200 and run high luxuries for a few turns since I don’t think I’ll be able to get enough research for Monotheism before then.

AD 140 (0): Survey the nation. Lots of things amiss. Vigo is defended by horsemen and warriors when there is a legion nearby. Pamplona isn’t growing because it needs an entertainer to keep order, and it has a sleeping diplomat that could be used for some purpose. Saragossa is building a trireme, but already supports one. A settler is roading on a mountain near Madrid, but that road will only shorted the caravan route for 3 cities; will put accumulated turns into irrigation for Madrid. Take actions to correct these issues, and other miscellaneous adjustments. Throw a party in Toledo to increase caravan payout next turn. Science rate is pathetic anyway, taxes to 70%. Rush buys reduce the treasury to 101g.

AD 160 (1): Malaga copper, start harbour. Salamanca salt, start settler. Wounded Knee silk, start diplomat. WLTKD in Toledo. Madrid Hides. Toledo Silk (nd) to Washington, after maximizing trade, for 160g. Valencia silk (nd) for 104g. I demand Carthaginians withdraw troops: WAR. Legion kills warrior stack of 2 units. NON horse kills horse and becomes vet. Vigo horse kills settler, becomes vet. Sioux ignore my threats.

AD 180 (2): Carthaginians destroy warrior in Vigo, kill legion. Avila diplomat. Vigo diplomat. Saragossa settler. Barcelona hides. Toledo Cloth, WLTKD cancelled. Unload 4 caravans on American continent. Horseman dies fighting Cart Archers (was under a horseman). Pay 77g for weakened Cart horse, which I disband to rush an Elephant (Carts could have, if they tried, taken Vigo). Sioux ignore threats.

AD 200 (3): Carts don’t even try to attack (wasted that 77g last turn, or at least 27 of it). Elephant kills archer/horseman stack. Don’t deliver caravans, because I’m going to switch to Republic, but do spread them out. Insist Sioux withdraw troops: WAR. Raze Little Bighorn, 44g. Sign Cease Fire when Sioux give me 150g. Leon built a trireme. Revolution. Disband some garrisons.

AD 220 (4): Disorder in a few cities. Republic established. Cadix gems (d) to Washington for 432g! Build Burgos, rehome Madrid trireme to the city. Hut: Advanced Tribe, Oviedo. Luxuries to 40%, only a couple cities will be in disorder. Disband more garrisons, change production, do some rushbuys.

AD 240 (5): Russians begin Lighthouse, then abandon it. Monotheism, begin University. Disorder in Bilbao (elephant in Siouxland is the problem). Valladolid copper. Barcelona hides. Salamanca settlers, disorder (will stay until Mike’s takes effect two turns from now). Wounded Knee diplomat. Toledo Diplomat. Disorder in Seville. REhome a Seville settler to Toledo (Seville was low on food). Vigo’s new crusader (rushed an elephant there last turn, and the city was processed after Monotheism) crushes cart warrior. Use the shipchain to get a settler to Island 13, another near the edge of our continent, then to send 2 caravans already on a trireme at sea the rest of the way to America. Barcelona hides (d) to Washington for 320g. Madrid hides (d) to Washington for 296g. 3 caravans to Cordoba for Mike’s (only needs 8 more shields, exactly the city’s production). Embassy with Sioux: They have 2 cities.

AD 260 (6): Americans: Tell us they have Banking. Also, they begin Pyramids. Malaga Harbour. Salamanca Harbour. Cordoba Builds Michelangelo’s Chapel. WLTCD in Toledo, which supports a settler, and so has no food surplus. Order in Seville. Madrid Hides. Avila builds trireme. Build Santander. Incite revolt Leptis Parva for 286 gold, get 72 back. Take Iron Working. Luxuries to 60%, taxes to 30%.

AD 280 (7): Carthaginians: Demand 150g; I refuse and war continues. WLTCD in all size 3+ cities. Barcelona hides. Seville harbour. Embassy with the Americans: They have Banking (already as they said a few turns ago) and are researching Construction. I haven’t been making deliveries since I want cities to grow via WLTCD.

AD 300 (8): Madrid hides. Build Ciudad Rodrigo. Trade Philosophy to the Americans for Banking, give them Seafaring for an Alliance. Barcelona Hides (d) to Washington for 320g. Build Calatrava. Spend treasury down to 221g. Decide that we need lighthouse so we can more easily contact other civs.

AD 320 (9): University, begin Construction (want forts to contain Sioux as well as defend from Carthaginians). Bilbao silver, begin harbour. Valladolid food (will be put into lighthouse anyway). Barcelona hides. Saragossa hides (d) to Washington for 352g. Luxuries to 20%; only 2 cities would have benefited from a turn more of growth. Build Cartagena on Peninsula north of Madrid and Toledo; this city can work 8 squares without infringing on Madrid or Toledo and it has a whale to work. It can also support another trireme. 2 food and 2 junk caravans into Valladolid for Lighthouse.

AD 340 (10):Vigo Settler. Valladolid Builds Lighthouse. Wounded Knee builds settlers. Madrid Hides. Madrid Hides (d) to Washington for 296g. Accidentally move last shipchain trireme one square into the ocean (can still get to unload point), lighthouse may have already given us 40s back. Haven’t done any rushbuying this turn.

Notes:

2 of the 3 settlers on island 9 are at recommended city sites (the last is just outside Vigo, and I would recommend building a city with it, too). Square 140, 72 can work 8 squares without encroaching on another city, and it also has access to whales, so a city should probably be built there to support another trireme. My recommendation is only build settlers in cities that are greater than size 3, that way we can use WLTCD to replenish population. Remember that a city that has 2 units (including triremes) in the open can’t celebrate. I only did a couple turns of WLTCD because there were a lot of cities that are only at size 2. I wouldn’t build cities too close to the Americans; we’re allied at the moment, but I think it would be best not to strain relations.

I’ve been delaying the growth of Madrid and Barcelona so that they continue to produce hides (I’ve also been rushing a caravan in each city every other turn). I’m starting to get worried, however, that Washington might get a demand shift and stop demanding them. I’ve been using the shipchain to transport settlers as well as caravans, but it might be time to transport 2 hides caravans to Washington every 2 turns.

I built the lighthouse, so it is time to send triremes east to find other civs. Cartagena is building one at the moment. The trireme from Leon in the south is sailing west to find the Russians, but that could take a while (might be worth sending a trireme from Leptis Parva). Lighthouse also means that when we get Magellan’s and Leo’s, our shipchain will automatically become round-trip (instead of having to wait for galleons). Discovering Navigation or Invention will reduce delivery bonuses by 50%, so it is probably worth waiting until we are ready to get both techs before we discover one since we have spent the money on a trireme shipchain.

I’ve pretty well ignored the Sioux since they paid me 150 gold for a cease fire. They have 2 cities, no capital, and no government tech, so I think they are contained for a little while at least. The Carthaginians haven’t been playing nice. I’ve already sent 2 elephants from the Sioux detail towards Carthage, but they will need a trireme to cross, and there is no city to build one. Cadix will be able to use WLTCD soon, and, when a city is built with the other settler, it will have the food to support an entertainer, if that is what it takes. The Cadix settler can then build on the river, and a trireme can be rushed there. If elephants attack Carthage, they might see reason.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

How many cities the Sioux have left? Some cities, in my opinion, should restart ICS (I'm talking about cities that have lots of unoccupied land near, like Malaga, which has a LOT of land unoccupied west. It is also important because of the possibility of Carthage settling there, IIRC)

Point of Clarity: the term ICS, "Infinite City Sprawl/Sleaze" means the strategy of building lots of cities very close together, especially in the early game. This is distinct from general expansionist play, where you build lots of cities, but usually leave a decent amount of room for them to grow.

 

[mackerel]

Fascinating. This will be my first game with ship chains and massive trade, it's enlightening to see the power of instant commerce in action. Being a total trade noob, I'm full of questions, which of course I'll try to ask now.

Let's look at Madrid, Silk Hides (Copper), Hides route to Washington (3). I see the Copper caravan parked and ready for transport in Valladolid, 2 more Hides caravans at Cordoba moving to the ship chain, and another ready for delivery way up north. We can keep sending hides to Washington as long as we produce them, and get great payouts, but if we send hides to Boston it'll add a second Hides route in Madrid. At what point is it more important to have 3 trade routes per city than to achieve maximum payout? Or is that only important in major science and trade cities at all?

There's a silk caravan parked next to Washington, which demands (Silk) Hides Wine. The silk blockage is from Toledo. I notice another silk caravan fortified near Washington, presumably waiting for demand to unblock before being delivered. Is that a matter of waiting for Washington's 16 turn cycle, or replacing the Toledo route with more lucrative ones from other cities? Manipulating demand is still way over my head.

We have a lot more caravans parked in Valladolid than we have transport for, and more rolling in faster than we can deliver. I'm not complaining, just wondering what's the grand plan - higher capacity ships, let them sit until they're convenient to deliver? If they're going to take a long time, would it be better to send them overland northwest to where one trireme could transport 2 a turn to the Santander area, then overland toward Oviedo where one more trireme could transport 2 a time to the greater Chicago area? That's at least 20 turns of travel but uses few ships. Or should we focus on adding more cities and increasing the number/capacity/range of ships in the chain until we can deliver more every turn?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I run my trade game by instinct and trial and error. In fact, I don't think I've ever calculated an expected payout.

Let's look at Madrid, Silk Hides (Copper), Hides route to Washington (3). I see the Copper caravan parked and ready for transport in Valladolid, 2 more Hides caravans at Cordoba moving to the ship chain, and another ready for delivery way up north. We can keep sending hides to Washington as long as we produce them, and get great payouts, but if we send hides to Boston it'll add a second Hides route in Madrid. At what point is it more important to have 3 trade routes per city than to achieve maximum payout? Or is that only important in major science and trade cities at all?

Trade arrows become luxuries, taxes or science. Basically, if we deliver to Boston, we'll be sacrificing the difference in the delivery bonus for probably 2 trade arrows per turn. Suppose the difference is only 50g and 50 science. That translates into 100 trade arrows. We're basically getting a 2% return on that "investment" by delivering to Boston instead of Washington (I suspect the difference in payments would actually be substantially higher). I'd rather build settlers to get more cities, or rush buy more caravans for even greater returns (assuming they can be delivered, which is a drawback at the moment). The trade arrows from a delivery can become important if you are trying to make a single city celebrate, since the extra trade can push luxury counts up. Always use a "junk" commodity for that kind of delivery, since the ongoing trade arrows don't depend on whether the commodity was originally demanded.

There's a silk caravan parked next to Washington, which demands (Silk) Hides Wine. The silk blockage is from Toledo. I notice another silk caravan fortified near Washington, presumably waiting for demand to unblock before being delivered. Is that a matter of waiting for Washington's 16 turn cycle, or replacing the Toledo route with more lucrative ones from other cities? Manipulating demand is still way over my head.

One of those caravans is "guarding" our disembarkation point. It is a matter of Washington getting 3 better trade routes than the Silk from Toledo. If you want to try your hand at clearing the demand, you want to make note of the cities that trade with Washington; once you are about to deliver the 3rd of the better routes, maximize trade in the cities with the other routes and minimize trade in Toledo. I don't try to do this very often, and when I do try, I tend to get mixed results.

We have a lot more caravans parked in Valladolid than we have transport for, and more rolling in faster than we can deliver. I'm not complaining, just wondering what's the grand plan - higher capacity ships, let them sit until they're convenient to deliver? If they're going to take a long time, would it be better to send them overland northwest to where one trireme could transport 2 a turn to the Santander area, then overland toward Oviedo where one more trireme could transport 2 a time to the greater Chicago area? That's at least 20 turns of travel but uses few ships. Or should we focus on adding more cities and increasing the number/capacity/range of ships in the chain until we can deliver more every turn?

We can use those caravans for wonder building when a wonder comes up (a wonder will reduce that stockpile substantially). It also gives us a selection of commodities to send, particularly if demand changes. If we send them overland, then we can't choose which ones we want to deliver on a given turn (one of the great advantages of shipchains). Once we get Magellan's Expedition and Leonardo's Workshop, our chain will triple in capacity and a stockpile might be nice to have.

It is a good point that caravans sitting there are a "dead stock." If they are coming in faster than they can be sent out, change production to settlers or something else until the stockpile shrinks a little bit. I was building caravans in cities that were below size 4, since once a city hits size 3 it can celebrate, and has little need for more than 1 surplus food. Caravans are the "waiting" buildorder.

Increasing the capacity of the shipchain will be a major undertaking that will become unnecessary once we upgrade to caravels. We need to get ships with settlers out to find the other civs. Bring along a caravan or diplomat as well (or a second settler). Even a single city a good distance from home is a huge help, since it is a point for rush-buying more units. I wouldn't set up a second shipchain (or link it with the current one) until we get caravels or galleons, but a few ships closer to a second trading partner will be helpful if we do eventually want to set one up. Not to mention that contacting everyone is quite beneficial anyway.

 

[haleewud]

I believe I am next. I have some major reviewing to do before I start, but I should be able to play either tomorrow night (Friday) or on Saturday.

 

[haleewud]

It is a matter of Washington getting 3 better trade routes than the Silk from Toledo. If you want to try your hand at clearing the demand, you want to make note of the cities that trade with Washington; once you are about to deliver the 3rd of the better routes, maximize trade in the cities with the other routes and minimize trade in Toledo. I don't try to do this very often, and when I do try, I tend to get mixed results.

I did a small amount of review so far.

In regards to the blocked Silk in Washington. One thing that is somewhat strange to me is that, according to Prof. Garfield's log, the only Silk delivered to Washington (from Valencia and Toledo) were not demanded at that time. So the commodity wasn't in demand at that time, but now it is one of the demand items. Apparently the peasants are enjoying our high quality silk.

We currently have 7 cities with a trade route to Washington. Toledo has +3 Silk, Madrid and Sargossa(?) have +3 Hides. Valladolid and Barcelona have +2 Hides, Valencia has +2 Silk and Cadix has +2 Gems.

So the question is: Which of those 3 are the routes for Washington? My guess is Toledo, Madrid and Sargossa.

To remove the Silk block, we would probably have to reduce Toledo's trade value and make sure we deliver from some city other than one of those 3 (or possibly non-Hides from Madrid or Sargossa).

We also have to remember that out delivery bonus will drop dramatically when we discover Invention (needed for Leo's) and Navigation (needed for Caravels and Magellan's).

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Sargossa(?) have +3 Hides

If I don't have that listed in the log, it's probably because I, out of habit, mistook it for a caravan from Madrid or Barcelona.

So the question is: Which of those 3 are the routes for Washington? My guess is Toledo, Madrid and Sargossa.

To remove the Silk block, we would probably have to reduce Toledo's trade value and make sure we deliver from some city other than one of those 3 (or possibly non-Hides from Madrid or Sargossa).

Cadix is almost at size 3; if you wait a few turns and decide to do WLTCD, it might give you an extra trade. Don't forget to reduce Valencia's trade as well.

 

[haleewud]

One other thing I forgot to ask about.

Has anyone given any thought to when we start tech bombing the Sioux? Have we reduced them enough? We currently have 24 techs and they only have 11 (I think). With Tech cost at 912, we could probably reduce it a bit. Of course, if I remember correctly, the Tech Cost has something to do with the delivery bonus, so it may not be time yet to reduce it. Maybe after Invention/Navigation?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

The tech cost affects the delivery bonus in the following way: Once the tech cost is above a certain amount (300?), caravan deliveries are maxed out at 2/3 of the tech cost. It is usually obvious that you are running into this buffer because several payouts will be the same (or quite close if done on subsequent turns). Delivering hides (which only have a demand bonus of 2, and are from small cities), we don't seem to be running into this. If we start delivering "better" commodities from larger cities, the cap might become relevant. If there are any "high value" caravans, you might want to deliver them before tech bombing the Sioux; I don't think you'll run into the cap, but if you do, you might want to give some more thought to tech bombing. At the moment, I think we'll drop 144 beakers from a discovery (possibly 192, if I remember how the formula works) if we give them everything, which might be worth it since we can't get a tech per turn at the moment anyway.

Something I forgot in my notes is to give the Americans Construction when we get it.

 

[mackerel]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I can feel my powers increasing already just from hanging around with you guys.

 

[Jokemaster]

Same thing here... being with the best really helps you to become one of the best.

I think getting contact with the French should be moved up on the priority list so we can swap maps. They are pretty close and they have Marco's so they could represent either a trading partner or the victim of a ''diplomatic mission'' (good one Prof!) in order to get Marco's.

Now that we are under Republic, shall we maintain the ''only size 4+ cities build settlers'' policy or not? Either way, I think getting the Pyramids may be worth it, considering that growth to size 3 for celebrations will not be easy considering our poor land.

We have a few caravans that can be used for that purpose in Valladoid. While they were intended to embark on the ship chain, some of those caravans are maybe not worth it to wait their turn because of poor expected bonuses, and the like. Getting to ship techs (Inv/Nav/Mag) to increase cargo space and caravan deliveries is, in my opinion, not a very good idea because we need to rush some key improvements (harbours, temples, aqueducts where needed and the like) caravans (to build wonders like Bach's and Adam Smith's) and create more growth before the Navigation/Invention penalty greatly reduces income that will be needed to build those things. I don't think increased caravan numbers being delivered will be worth it. That is, not until our cities can build 4 caravans per turn. And I don't think we should gun for those techs and try to make 4 deliveries per turn, because, in my opinion, there is social and economic growth to accomplish first, and city resources to be focused elsewhere (examples are irrigation, expansion, exploration and the building of white goods) And the Pyramids, considering our terrain, could maybe help.

In the meanwhile, those unused, junk caravans are worth using for the Pyramids in my opinion (if the next player does not think so, he can always rush a few food caravans) It's a shock to see that wonder still available at 340AD, usually it's gone by 500BC on Deity.

Just an idea thrown in the air...

 

[mackerel]

Pyramids may be a good idea, saving quite a few turns for new cities to reach WLTCD. If we're going to be making a lot of new cities, or don't care about 4 caravans, it's an easy goal. I haven't played Deity so I'm paranoid about happiness, is researching toward and building Bach's a high priority? In any case, I think building settlers only in size 4+ cities is important because we can instantly celebrate the population loss back.

What about Cope's? We may have lost the colossus and not be able to make a Super science city, but how about Burgos as a Pretty Good Science City?

I see a trireme poised to go meet the French, and another en route to Russia. Looks like that priority adjustment was anticipated.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I think getting contact with the French should be moved up on the priority list so we can swap maps. They are pretty close and they have Marco's so they could represent either a trading partner or the victim of a ''diplomatic mission'' (good one Prof!) in order to get Marco's.

At this point, I don't think we need to bother getting Marco Polo's Embassy. We already have contact and embassies with half the civs; when we meet the French, that will be four out of six. The find city order also gives us the general location of Moscow, so we only need to find the Japanese. Most of the value of MPE is lost by now anyway; we have a destination for caravans, and we are unlikely to have many tech exchanges. If Paris is inland or has walls, I would go so far as to emphatically oppose trying to take the city. (Unless, of course, we decide we want to go on a world conquest and need MPE to find all the restarts.) France could give us an alternative market for caravans (especially for cities on continent 9), and that will be much safer if we don't go to war.

Now that we are under Republic, shall we maintain the ''only size 4+ cities build settlers'' policy or not? Either way, I think getting the Pyramids may be worth it, considering that growth to size 3 for celebrations will not be easy considering our poor land.

I do recommend the size 4 rule, unless there is some particular reason we need cities in a region very quickly. I'd like there to be lots more cities, but I think waiting for a city to grow to size 3 and celebrate can get even more cities in a region with only a moderate waiting time for the first one. I don't have an opinion on Pyramids either way.