[BTS] Deity One City Challenge on a Huge map with 18 civilizations

I would have made some roads (on stone for travel to marble), wheat maybe or road towards Izzy.
I think that pigs farm is very marginal.

Totally agree! I have in plans to give away every single resource I am not using at the moment.
It is not only improving a relationships, but also saves you from asks/demands.
 
Interesting! Didn't know about that. So, mountains like extend river routes?
Any tile that touches 2 rivers. There are a couple of examples in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-does-thebes-have-access-to-corn.666156/

I believe you do. At least this is written at sailing description :)
Probably, it's different for river connections within your own cultural borders (no sailing needed), I just don't know if it also different if the river does not cross neutral land.

As for Berlin, it probably has no road to the pig/cow river yet. As soon as it gets one, Berlin should be in the same trade group as Paris.
 
Any tile that touches 2 rivers. There are a couple of examples in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-does-thebes-have-access-to-corn.666156/


Probably, it's different for river connections within your own cultural borders (no sailing needed), I just don't know if it also different if the river does not cross neutral land.

As for Berlin, it probably has no road to the pig/cow river yet. As soon as it gets one, Berlin should be in the same trade group as Paris.

That's interesting, thank you! Will try to take this into account when I'll start building my trade network.
 
T15.

Nothing really interesting at this move. Nobody from known AI's converted into Hinduism, so it wasn't Saladin or Hatty. May be it was Cyrus or Asoka? Of course it always can be Monty, he is a fan of an early religions too.

Warrior continues to move to Asia. Saladin is blocking path to Africa and this is good because I don't want to meet Mansa now.
Spoiler Anatolia :

T15.JPG



I see demo of Freddi now. I can train in the reading of this screens for now.
What can I get from it?
T15 - demo Freddi.JPG


I have 7000 soldiers.
Looking at this:
https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...orkings-of-the-demographics-screen-explained/

I see that it is:
4k - from Wheel
2k - from Warrior
1k - from population ( when it became 2 )

Freddi has 16k.

He started with Hunted and Mining - 4k already.
Berlin population 3 - +1k
He had 1 warrior and built one more = +4k

That gives us only 9k.
What was this leap at move 10 when Freddi got 5 at one move? Only technology can explain it and the only technology that could give it is the Wheel ( it gives 4 and another 1 is probably when his second city grown to 2). So, at move 10 Freddi learned Wheel.
Wheel is really a cheep technology ( 90 bakers for AI ) , this does mean that Freddi's probably changed techology after I've declared war to him, otherwise he would learn it earlier.
Of course I have no idea what he is learning now.
 
T16.

Met Cyrus. He is not a Hinduist.
Paris finished the warrior and Berlin finished his build - so, now we know this is a worker.

The main question that I need to decide now. Do I need to start Stonehenge or just monument?
Of course, if I'll start it now - I'll be the first on it. But then I'll delay start of the Pyramids ( masonry will be in 5 turns, so potentially I could start Pyramids in 5 turns ), and I'll not be able to finish them before finishing Priesthood. Probably I could not risk for Oracle waiting finishing the Pyramids - because then Oracle will be too late. Another reason to not get Stonehedge - it is a great prophet points pollution.

Safe way is to just start monument, right after getting Masonry - start Pyramids and looks like approximate calculations, I'll finish them exactly on time of finishing Priesthood.

Need to think and calculate it again, as this is a key decision.

T16.JPG
 
It is not only improving a relationships, but also saves you from asks/demands.

But why it saves from demands? I mean - giving resourse for demand will add plus to diplo faster (though you cannot choose who will ask). Or does it reduce the chance of other demand? As I understand, it is only can be used for slow controllabe growing of diplo with chosen AI. Is it correct?:)

And very intetesting to read the deep analysis as with Freddy's tech. Please keep doing it!

Are prophets so bad? Hammers will be good for production of spaceship. Money will be good for diplo, for extracash when buying techs, for cheep civic changing of AIs, etc. And stonehadge can be build much faster. Or may be all properties of prophets are generally irrelevant for OCC?
 
I have tried to play this map from a conquest perspective multiple times now and I think that GProphets are just fine. 2 hammers is nice and it still gives the 3 beakers from representation.
In my tries I have more or less built all the wonders (ofcourse only possible due to the doctored start...) and the only problem I have ever encountered with GPeople pollution is that it makes getting the academy scientist very tricky.
Getting a prophet/spy/engineer the first person, then a prophet/spy/engineer/merchant second is perfecly fine. But then you want a GSci and you are very unlikely to get it as the third person too (10% or so).
And once you get GLib up and can run caste... Well then you can start to push GSci odds up to 60%, but if you have an unlucky streak of 3 more non-scientists GPersons at that point, your research rate will suffer immensly.

But other than that, I don't think it matters much at all. All GPersons have their unique advantages and it's easy to retool the city around what you get.
Well, it could be problematic if you spawn like 3-4 GSpies too I guess, but the odds for that are miniscule.
 
OCC deity conquest on this map is well beyond my attempted abilities, but I've had limited (and pretty cheesy) success on Immortal. Key ideas in a far-too-long ppst, for what seems to be working for me as I chase down a win:

Random huts, and the rejigging thereof, are needed; random events are awful:

Spoiler :

Oracling something good seems huge on this map and either way the early techs give massive benefits to try and run away from the pack [tech trading is a double edged sword, often seems best to just leave other civs in the dark even at your own expense, as your early game is going to be the best edge you ever have - especially avoid trading techs that advance opponents into the next era, but watch for techs that lose monopoly status and get them early]. I popped pottery and BW in my current game and managed to snag CS with oracle, without even bulbing math (was able to get academy with first Gsci instead). Of course Ive reloaded numerous times to get timing right.

On Immortal the AIs have just 1 warrior, and by fluke in my first attempt, my warrior started next to a German worker, and won vs the defending city warrior next 2 turns later, wiping out the civ AND preserving the hut in NL being protected by my culture (if Germany survived, his scout would grab that hut). By cheating with looking at the map in worldbuilder, I also zeroed in on 2 other huts that I had no right to get - I think I had access to 4 huts total, including the first as pottery without reloading.

Random events are AWFUL, primarily for the reason that after some point (nationalism I think?), razing cities makes enemy armies appear. Once rifling is passed around, this adds 3-5 rifles to fight to every city taken, which is just brutal for a OCC army as every loss = 1 turn of production. Unfortunately with my original attempt hitting pottery off these settings, I still live with this annoyance in my current playthrough as I have been restarting from that point...


Critical wonders:
Spoiler :

SH is nice for early culture, grabbing critical land tiles that increase vassaling potential, as well as a few GPP. This costs you at least a worker in production, so not free but seems obtainable; hard to build with stone before it gets snagged but again, on Immortal this is possible meaning true hammer cost is lowish.

Oracle (MC, or CoL at least, maybe Feudalism or CS if you really cheese it - actually come to think of it, Monarchy cluld be amazing here given the high food and lack of happiness resources),

ToA, GLH (ToA grants GPP, but also a surprising amount of extra commerce combined with GLH; looks to easily give somethong like 15 raw commerce in the early game, which is 22 with Bureu leading to 40-60 science depending on multipliers)

Mids (especially if you want an aggressive lib, needing lots of specialists to create bulbs anyeay, otherwise I think this is less bang for buck given the srength of HR, comparing hammer cost to super powered combo of ToA + maybe even GLH).

GL obviously, and by extension Parthenon if you already are weighted to avoiding sci method.

MoM would be great if cheesing a mega-lib through bulbs, buy seems really hard to fit into everything else. Especially because at this point, you likely have army to be building.

AP hammers + diplo shenanigans is good, perhaps even necessary - good use for extra g prophets with both SH and Oracle is to bulb Theology anyway.

Angkor Wat is actually interesting if you expect to delay steam power - the multiple hammer priests are quite good if you save 4+ forests for early nat park, for example.

UoS can give 8 raw beakers which is nice, + scientist GPP (TBH the random GPP pollution would be the bane of a 'clean' attempt, and I have had to 'force' occurrence of 1 or 2 scientists in some runs.

Taj is good, again especially for GP buildup if going cheesy lib strat. Otherwise it is expensive at a critical point in production time.

After this point, wonders are basically good but expensive. Pentagon can be like a 4 turn build if you have IW and no Nat park. Christo redentor is nice if you make it to radio early enough, SoL is nice mostly to block a mega Qin or Cyrus from getting 20 specialists. Hollywood etc are nice for granting happiness to your vassals, but expensive. Eiffel tower is nice to get a broadcast tower if you avoid Globe. All these late wonders togetber would be like 30 cavs/paratroopers/tanks/fighters, so its painful.


Get the most use from cuirs and cavs you can
Spoiler :

Cuir rush is needed to get things rolling with adding in vassals. I'm less convinced about the early feudalism attack for a quick vassal, but having one or 2 GG's in place by then is huge. March is the key promotion to get; hugely increases speed of attack. Seige I think goes too slow. On immortal cuirs can hit before gunpowder, which is clutch. Not sure of best lib tech to take; MT seems premature. Steam Power is amazing for Paris.

Airships help you crack top rifle defenders as the cavs fade unto uselessness.

Oil is king! I had no concrete path to get it my first major playthrough, and tried too late to vassal Saladin. Key tactic: Madrid's culture touches Northern Africa soon enough, meaning if Egypt or Mali settles the oil North of Sahara, you can gift a small army to Isabella, and prepare her to cap it for you.

Early flight seems really good, both for the fighters to extend longevity of your cavs, and also for the flexibility of paratroopers and airport drops into vassal cities. Before oil flows throigh yout empire, paratroopers are thr best things your vassals can build, too, and they *almost* know how to use them to move quickly. I had one game where Salidin settled South America the turn that I vassalled him, and that would be the key to airlifting him an army there to guide him to Incan conquest.

Im thinking post-cav usefulness, the ideal would be to have at least a dozen remaining, and gift to a vassal in the Americas, if you can manage it. Monte is frequently backwards. Cavs dont upgrade to tanks which seems a beeline necessity (with Commando to quick-raze problematic capitals of Cyrus or Qin). Havent gotten here successfully yet. Stopping my vassals from trading with Qin/Cyrus is difficult; there seems to be a need to wait for a turning point like total Africa conquest, after which open flood gates give 5-6 vassals all techs, and declare world war.


Religion founding/ spread is crucial

Spoiler :

A holy city or 2 gives good money, AP production is very helpful pre-steampower, and a mix of religions helps keep things spicy. Money needed to trade for war and techs while leaving civs in the dark, also helps with army maintenance and the occassional need to buy strat resources, especially early horse or even oil.

Ive had good success keeping borders closed with Izzy until my Judiasm is spread a bit. Also - founding a bunch of religions helps a lot with happiness (my current run has Mono, CoL, Philo, on track for Theo bulb and might even nab DR for dead-end trade potential, especially if the timing for a g prophet worms out for a bulb).

Happiness benefits from religions help with the early temples (good 2 pop whip candidates into classical wonders), and access to cathedrals/free religion long-term if you avoid Globe.

With 4+ religions, early monestaries are also huge. Seems tempting to dely scientific method as long as possible, especially if you hold GL and/or Parthenon.


5 nat wonder thoughts:
Spoiler :


Oxford is mandatory.
Nat Epic is mandatory. [I think...? in normal OCC pangea games you can avoid this if Cuirs and Cavs will win the day]

Everything else is debateable, I think.

HE is nice for pre-steampower army buildup, but the timing is a bit questionable, unless you get an early level 4 warrior from barb fights - otherwise hard to transition from the first war granting the experience into this before steam power is ready. Might push you to make the first GG for a super medic, which is a bit questionable IMO - first 1 or 2 GGs into the city is helpful if you manage without super medic.

IW is pretty solid - after steampower and before nat park, this grants the HE bonus to army and everything else. After nat park, at least loses the health downsides. If you have a well-timed GE IW gets quite good, otherwise the time lost to build is a bit painful. IW also grants the engi slots which really help production also, if you lack angkor wat.

Don't get both IW and HE, IMO. I did that in one run but quickly had no need for HE (I am playing on BUG not BAT, so no gold gained from excess production overflow - if I had that, then I guess HE becomes a late game money machine). But you probably want one of them.

Globe I have been avoiding due to the long-term access to happiness through religions and vassals. This locks me out of drafting potential, and limits ability to whip in the mid game, but otherwise not much of a cost at all.

Nat Park is okay, especially if you manage to keep 4 forests for preserves (another 4 happiness making GT even meh-er). This hurts a bit unless you get RP quickly for lumbermills, and you can work specialists until then. My most recent game I was at about 7 unealthiness, so I gained equivalent to 3.5 theoretical specialists + 2 from forest preserves, meaning about 30 base scientist beakers, or about 100 science.

Counterpoint to nat park is that environmentalism is an option for just 1 further tech, and that means you can get some of those benefits without using a national wonder slot.

West point is nice; hard to get early due to hammer cost but if IW is in place already, not too bad (except it comes at such a critical time, with MT, so will always cost 5+cuirs). Extra 4 xp helps get you eventually to 2 critical spots: March, and Commando. Not sure if the payoff is truly worth it, but Im always a sucker for it.

Amusing choice: red cross; granting the early healing level 1 gets you to March faster (but eventually you'll want those combat promotions anyway, most likely), and also the coveted super-duper medic: A muskateer with GG, healing level 3, woodsman 3, and +1 movement. For this to work youd need medicine before rifling, so not really practical to use red cross for it. If yoh have WP, you can get close to woodsman 3 regardless, but the 3 total movement requires patience picking off 99% battles thereafter.

 
Well Ive done it on immortal. Had to save scum a fair bit to get key wonders and tech 'firsts' and needed to re-try with multiple paths. Oracled CS, vassaled spain with maces, and managed to lib AL. Had about 15 maces upgraded CR 2-3, to kick start modern warfare. Got huge luck in JC having settle oil on his own, so had easy access to that by the time I got flight. Took Russia before they had rifling, and then crippled Cyrus and rushed into Qin before he hooked up his oil. Spain had >50 cities and Monte was still a real slog until Spain finally land in the new world.

So much variability from randomness, in particular early religious spread and early wonder dates.

I delayed sharing vassal techs until i was at war with all possible trading partners. This slowed things a lot.

Going to try on deity marathon with no tech brokering. Still doubt its possible, but early testing shows you can wipe out Germany getting 2 free workers, in some cases...
 
Still only 1500 BCish in my current Deity run. but yeah this seems possible, at least on Marathon with no tech brokering. Got insanely lucky with random events, and had the Greed event for the copper in Eastern Europe. 30 turns later my culture got there and I had 6 free axemen; I was planning on hitting CS with oracle, but given I would have the free army, I went for Feudalism instead. Just about instantly vassaled Greece, and before siging that deal I bribed 5 different people into various wars; only Cyrus and Tokugawa have clean hands after various AIs brought in more war allies after 1 turn of worls war.

Mansa self-vassaled to me and I capped Salidin next (really want to lock down Oil). Going to get JC, then Spain and England without any extra tech (axes and LB's doing the job so far). Going for CS and then Machinery for some maces to hopefully get through Russia and Egypt.

Techs from huts to make this possible: AH, pottery, BW, Masonry (my won immortal game I got AH, Pottery, construction, HBR, aesthetics, compass). Lost out on GLH at like 2000 BC in my deity game, but no way to avoid that without losing out on monotheism I think.

Marathon on this map is like cheating, even with deity, since AI's dont get their starting techs. England still has only warriors at 1500BC...

Onward we go!
 
How are Paris and London able to exist 2 spaces away from each other? Does the limit not count if there's ocean in-between?
 
How are Paris and London able to exist 2 spaces away from each other? Does the limit not count if there's ocean in-between?
Cities on the same landmass cannot be within two spaces of each other, specifically.
 
Managed to Lib AL and currently sweeling into China. I'd say Marathon Deity on this map, (lacks AI starting techs) at least without tech brokering, is easier than normal speed immortal. MASSIVE value from huts, oracle, bulbs, and Lib.

GA's are worse, relatively, and unfortunately I missed MoM this run, but got Guns not Butter as I was already building Taj, at perfect timing to load up 12 muskets to upgrade 30 turns later to infrantry.

Tech brokering off with many vassals is a bit of a curious mini-game. I wasnt prepared for needing to bring new ones up to speed, so didnt properly plan for keeping the 'main tech thread' as something I research to be able to parcel out to the idiots.

Would this be possible without so much hut rejigging? Who knows, Im probqbly done with Civ for a while after this lol.
 
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