[BTS] Deity One City Challenge on a Huge map with 18 civilizations

[Donald Duck1]

T12.

Isabella converts to Buddhism!
Right now I can't catch it from her - as I understand, you need trade route for that. Making roads to Spain border probably would not help - Spain starts without a Wheel and there is a forest tile between her and me:

Note that the mountain tile south of the warrior touches 2 rivers, so the 2 rivers are treated as a single river for trade route purposes. If Madrid is on that river you only need to road pigs or wine, or maybe wait until border pop so the Paris river is connected to the other river by coast.
Not sure if you still need sailing for that river connection.

 

[valergrad]

Note that the mountain tile south of the warrior touches 2 rivers, so the 2 rivers are treated as a single river for trade route purposes.

Interesting! Didn't know about that. So, mountains like extend river routes?

Not sure if you still need sailing for that river connection.

I believe you do. At least this is written at sailing description

 

[valergrad]

I've just realised that when I did prework for road on pigs ( at move T3 ) i could instead do prework for farm on the same tile. This could save me one turn for this farm now. One turn = one additional food. And apparently with this additional food city would grow from 3 to 4 one move faster that gives additional 1 hammer and commerce. And this later may be would cause some wonder or research 1 move later causing even more distinction from "optimal" play. I am so sad, this game is already not optimal And who would think that first mistake I would do at move 3! )

Anyway, I've calculated in the spreadsheet all possible scenarios for next 9 moves ( until T21) , with removing all that would be "not optimal". And it gives me that my several next moves should stay the same - concentrate efforts on growing ( no sense to go to commerce yet ). Of course, I felt the same way even without the spreadsheet, it is just the common sense, but now I can do mathematical proof that it is "optimal". For example, I can't get some benefit from getting tech earlier with concentrating on commerce.

So, T13.

Worker just finished the farm.
I am the worst enemy of Freddi again. It looks like he is in top9 on scoreboard now. But how this could happen? He has the same 42 points as it was one more before, he couldn't become higher unless some of AI haven't lost the points.

UPD. I've got it. It was me who got +3 points and now I am higher in the scoreboard. So, I've lost bonus from Freddi for good relationship to small civs, and now I am his worst enemy again.

Anyway, Freddi's worker/settler in Berlin has 17 hammers. With speed 7 hammers per move he will finish worker ( if this is a worker ) at move 16. If this worker will go build pasture on cows ( assuming Frederick learned AH), I could steal it at move 18. But if he learned not AH but something else, this worker probably would go on mine under Berlin with no chances for me to steal it.

 

[valergrad]

T14.
Fresh news:

Hinduism has been founded in the distance land! What are the bets - who was it? I see that Saladin got +6 scores, may be this is for the Polytheism?
The peace deal with Freddi expired. So, I could kill his scout, but decided not to do this as still hoping on the second worker steal.
Worker started farm on pigs.

 

[valergrad]

I don't think you should be saddened. RNG is what is is. Optimal play is what it is.

In my very humble opinion, however, the prospect to play "1 turn per day" is flawed, even more so in OCC.
Having a plan for workers is always important, even determining. But, barring that (plans for workers), I believe you should have plans for a turnset rather than a lone turn.
I've been known to give up on games (and for good reasons) and... many times, when I catch up a game, I begin with a blunder. For example, I would be oblivious to a threat after having slept on my successes.
What I mean, here, is that concentration, focus, is something that you can use several turns in a row.
When you're unsure, sure, stop.
But you can at least play until the next objective (city has grown, a tech has been discovered, a new item has been built - and all in the meantime, worker management is the basis for it all).

Regards

I understand this. But I can name several reasons to do this in my way.

1. This is my way for learning. For example, when I tried to get - what is Freddi producing, I have to read "Full guide on espionage" article on this forum to get this ( and a lot of other ) information.
Now I am learning what are the factors that affect attitudes - and can think of each of them, getting use to them one by one.
With this extremely slow play I can really think on each aspect, and not only think - even google strategy articles about this exact aspect and read them.

2. With this rule "1 ( sometimes 2 or 3) move 1 per day" I can get advices from some players there. I know, that when you playing you concentrate on plans, go into some kind of "stream", and because of this - you are missing a lot of different possibilities ( because you've stuck with the plan you've made earlier). It is know as the common mistake for the Civ4 player. In this way I can avoid it.
I know that players there can give me brilliant advices ( and they already did ), so this is a good possibility to learn too. If I'll play 15 moves at once, they could just ask "why on move 6 you didn't do this or that?", and this is not what I want

3. For now, when actually I almost have nothing to do for each move, I can dig into code and learn how some things actually works. To be honest, with my current workload I don't have time for it right now, but still this is possible in some next weeks.

4. I bet, nobody did this there before. Why not then?

 

[valergrad]

Yes, wait on the worker. You'll either spot it on the cows or on the grassland hills.
You can wait 2E of Paris for it.

btw, how to read this 2E, 1NW etc. codes for the tiles? Sorry for the stupid question.

 

[krikav]

Regarding religious spread..
I think it's that it needs to be the potential for being connected to the trade network (being able to trade resources).

I met Cyrus who where already Jew when we first met.
There is no chance he has unfogged the entire path to me, but maybe he got the trade connection through some intermediary civ? Checked back a few turns since I was suprised by this, and it seems to me that it was that HE got sailing that caused the spread.
A possible path could have been that I have made a road to the river that is connecting ot one of alex cities (which I'm at war with), and those in turn are connected by road to Saladin, which is connected to Cyrus.

Have seen this to Elizabeth too, as soon as she researches sailing, Judaism jumps to her.
I have almost started to suspect that there is some higher than normal chance for spread, during the turn (or turns around) sailing is discovered. But that might just be observer bias.

 

[valergrad]

Regarding religious spread..
I think it's that it needs to be the potential for being connected to the trade network (being able to trade resources).

I met Cyrus who where already Jew when we first met.
There is no chance he has unfogged the entire path to me, but maybe he got the trade connection through some intermediary civ? Checked back a few turns since I was suprised by this, and it seems to me that it was that HE got sailing that caused the spread.
A possible path could have been that I have made a road to the river that is connecting ot one of alex cities (which I'm at war with), and those in turn are connected by road to Saladin, which is connected to Cyrus.

Have seen this to Elizabeth too, as soon as she researches sailing, Judaism jumps to her.
I have almost started to suspect that there is some higher than normal chance for spread, during the turn (or turns around) sailing is discovered. But that might just be observer bias.

In the code it is just looking to the functiion isConnectedTo for the plot of the city.
( there is no special cases for the Sailing, it works exactly how it is described there:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/natural-religious-spread.171581/#post-4072493 )

This function is really simple on the first sight:

bool CvPlot::isConnectedTo(const CvCity* pCity) const
{
FAssert(isOwned());
return ((getPlotGroup(getOwnerINLINE()) == pCity->plotGroup(getOwnerINLINE())) || (getPlotGroup(pCity->getOwnerINLINE()) == pCity->plotGroup(pCity->getOwnerINLINE())));
}

So, the first part is that PlotGroup should be the same.
OR plot group for the player should be the same as this city plot group for the player - I am not 100% sure I understand this , but this probably does mean that spread also works for city belonging to player even if it is not connected to the holy city.

How the plotGroups work? I don't know exactly, but you can see this values in the debug mode by pressing Shift on the tile. It is one the left-down at this screenshot:

So, for example I see that Paris and all passable tiles connected to Paris by higher river ( "Rhine" ) are in group 90121.
All passable tiles connected to the lower river ( "Loire" ) are in group 81927.
Wheat tile is in group -1, i.e. doesn't belong to any group.
Water tiles and within cultural borders and London (!) are in group 90121 - that's why I am connected to Lisa.
Tiles outside my cultural borders are in group -1.
But! Berlin is in group 163857 - probably game creates a new group for other players capitals.

When I'll make a new road I'll try to get this values again and look what is happening.

But you've right: we need to know plotGroup values not for me, but for source of religion i.e. Isabella.

 

[krikav]

Probably the wrong place to ask, but the opportunity is present so I'll do it anyway...
How do you enter debug mode...?

 

[Fippy]

I would have made some roads (on stone for travel to marble), wheat maybe or road towards Izzy.
I think that pigs farm is very marginal.

 

[valergrad]

Probably the wrong place to ask, but the opportunity is present so I'll do it anyway...
How do you enter debug mode...?

IIRC With civ closed, open \My Games\BTS\CivilizationIV.ini and on the line CheatCode enter chipotle.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/bts-in-game-debug-mode.279903/

 

[valergrad]

I would have made some roads (on stone for travel to marble), wheat maybe or road towards Izzy.
I think that pigs farm is very marginal.

Totally agree! I have in plans to give away every single resource I am not using at the moment.
It is not only improving a relationships, but also saves you from asks/demands.

 

[civac]

Curious Civplayer - Mysteries of the DLL (realmsbeyond.net) for religious spread. There is also info on trade route formation earlier in the thread.

 

[Donald Duck1]

Interesting! Didn't know about that. So, mountains like extend river routes?

Any tile that touches 2 rivers. There are a couple of examples in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-does-thebes-have-access-to-corn.666156/

I believe you do. At least this is written at sailing description

Probably, it's different for river connections within your own cultural borders (no sailing needed), I just don't know if it also different if the river does not cross neutral land.

As for Berlin, it probably has no road to the pig/cow river yet. As soon as it gets one, Berlin should be in the same trade group as Paris.

 

[valergrad]

Any tile that touches 2 rivers. There are a couple of examples in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/how-does-thebes-have-access-to-corn.666156/


Probably, it's different for river connections within your own cultural borders (no sailing needed), I just don't know if it also different if the river does not cross neutral land.

As for Berlin, it probably has no road to the pig/cow river yet. As soon as it gets one, Berlin should be in the same trade group as Paris.

That's interesting, thank you! Will try to take this into account when I'll start building my trade network.

 

[valergrad]

T15.

Nothing really interesting at this move. Nobody from known AI's converted into Hinduism, so it wasn't Saladin or Hatty. May be it was Cyrus or Asoka? Of course it always can be Monty, he is a fan of an early religions too.

Warrior continues to move to Asia. Saladin is blocking path to Africa and this is good because I don't want to meet Mansa now.

Spoiler Anatolia :

I see demo of Freddi now. I can train in the reading of this screens for now.
What can I get from it?

I have 7000 soldiers.
Looking at this:
https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...orkings-of-the-demographics-screen-explained/

I see that it is:
4k - from Wheel
2k - from Warrior
1k - from population ( when it became 2 )

Freddi has 16k.

He started with Hunted and Mining - 4k already.
Berlin population 3 - +1k
He had 1 warrior and built one more = +4k

That gives us only 9k.
What was this leap at move 10 when Freddi got 5 at one move? Only technology can explain it and the only technology that could give it is the Wheel ( it gives 4 and another 1 is probably when his second city grown to 2). So, at move 10 Freddi learned Wheel.
Wheel is really a cheep technology ( 90 bakers for AI ) , this does mean that Freddi's probably changed techology after I've declared war to him, otherwise he would learn it earlier.
Of course I have no idea what he is learning now.

 

[valergrad]

T16.

Met Cyrus. He is not a Hinduist.
Paris finished the warrior and Berlin finished his build - so, now we know this is a worker.

The main question that I need to decide now. Do I need to start Stonehenge or just monument?
Of course, if I'll start it now - I'll be the first on it. But then I'll delay start of the Pyramids ( masonry will be in 5 turns, so potentially I could start Pyramids in 5 turns ), and I'll not be able to finish them before finishing Priesthood. Probably I could not risk for Oracle waiting finishing the Pyramids - because then Oracle will be too late. Another reason to not get Stonehedge - it is a great prophet points pollution.

Safe way is to just start monument, right after getting Masonry - start Pyramids and looks like approximate calculations, I'll finish them exactly on time of finishing Priesthood.

Need to think and calculate it again, as this is a key decision.

 

[RedKi-rr]

It is not only improving a relationships, but also saves you from asks/demands.

But why it saves from demands? I mean - giving resourse for demand will add plus to diplo faster (though you cannot choose who will ask). Or does it reduce the chance of other demand? As I understand, it is only can be used for slow controllabe growing of diplo with chosen AI. Is it correct?

And very intetesting to read the deep analysis as with Freddy's tech. Please keep doing it!

Are prophets so bad? Hammers will be good for production of spaceship. Money will be good for diplo, for extracash when buying techs, for cheep civic changing of AIs, etc. And stonehadge can be build much faster. Or may be all properties of prophets are generally irrelevant for OCC?

 

[krikav]

I have tried to play this map from a conquest perspective multiple times now and I think that GProphets are just fine. 2 hammers is nice and it still gives the 3 beakers from representation.
In my tries I have more or less built all the wonders (ofcourse only possible due to the doctored start...) and the only problem I have ever encountered with GPeople pollution is that it makes getting the academy scientist very tricky.
Getting a prophet/spy/engineer the first person, then a prophet/spy/engineer/merchant second is perfecly fine. But then you want a GSci and you are very unlikely to get it as the third person too (10% or so).
And once you get GLib up and can run caste... Well then you can start to push GSci odds up to 60%, but if you have an unlucky streak of 3 more non-scientists GPersons at that point, your research rate will suffer immensly.

But other than that, I don't think it matters much at all. All GPersons have their unique advantages and it's easy to retool the city around what you get.
Well, it could be problematic if you spawn like 3-4 GSpies too I guess, but the odds for that are miniscule.

 

[Heathcliff]

Is this game dead?
Did you win OOC on Diety @krikav on this map?
Or is this impossible?