[BTS] Deity One City Challenge on a Huge map with 18 civilizations

[krikav]

Either farm the piggies, or farm the wine.
Agree with fippy that you should not farm the marble as that will be quarried soon anyway.

But I also think that AH is millennia away, so farming that tile will be almost permanent too.

I played this opening a few days ago, and I remember that I stagnated at happycap and ceased to work the wheat and only worked commerce.
So both these two tiles will be used extensively.

How many turns to masonry...? Do you have time for both?

 

[valergrad]

How many turns to masonry...? Do you have time for both?

Yep, definitely. This is just the question of optimal order, actually.

 

[valergrad]

Okay, actually this is not a question, if to think about. We don't need hammers right now. And order of farms at wine and pigs doesn't matter now - it will give me exactly the same development. So, I choose wine ( having piggy second saves one movement for worker ).
,
T9.

Worker starts farm on wine.
Warrior went to asia.
Freddi has 1 hammer in Berlin ( based on espionage ) - this does mean he started one more warrior. Not good, I hoped on worker...

 

[valergrad]

T10.
Met Hatshepsut.

As time slowly moves on, I continue to think about our complicated relationships ( nothing else to do right now ).
For example, this move Freddi ended to think of me as of his worst enemy. How come? The only reason how this could happen - now we both in the second half of scoreboard and we got +1 of "Small civs should work together" improvement. Small but nice news.

Another thing - Cathy thinks Asoka is her worst enemy. But Asoka has the same BPW(peace weight) as Freddi - both has 8. This means that at least random factor for Asoka is greater or equal that the same for Freddi. Not so good news for Asoka - he probably will be the worst enemy of all military leaders ( e.g. Monty, Ghenkhis etc. ). If course if other factors like religion won't mess this.

 

[valergrad]

T11.

Met Saladin.
Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Crossing fingers for Isabella. This would be the best option for me I believe. Hatshepsut or Saladin have a lot of space, will be big strong countries, don't want them to be religious leaders too. And buddhist leader probably will have at least half of the world with his religion based on huge density.

 

[valergrad]

T12.

Isabella converts to Buddhism!
Right now I can't catch it from her - as I understand, you need trade route for that. Making roads to Spain border probably would not help - Spain starts without a Wheel and there is a forest tile between her and me:

So I have to wait while any of us will learn Sailing.
Or Spain will learn Wheel. Or we will have open borders - then I could construct a road on her territory. I need not to forget to place road to her border to make this faster.


Just checked - Freddi has 10 hammers in Berlin. So, this is not a warrior, he switched on worker/settler. If it will be a worker, I need to decide now - do I want to spoil relationship to -6 for the second worker?

 

[Donald Duck1]

T12.

Isabella converts to Buddhism!
Right now I can't catch it from her - as I understand, you need trade route for that. Making roads to Spain border probably would not help - Spain starts without a Wheel and there is a forest tile between her and me:

Note that the mountain tile south of the warrior touches 2 rivers, so the 2 rivers are treated as a single river for trade route purposes. If Madrid is on that river you only need to road pigs or wine, or maybe wait until border pop so the Paris river is connected to the other river by coast.
Not sure if you still need sailing for that river connection.

 

[valergrad]

Note that the mountain tile south of the warrior touches 2 rivers, so the 2 rivers are treated as a single river for trade route purposes.

Interesting! Didn't know about that. So, mountains like extend river routes?

Not sure if you still need sailing for that river connection.

I believe you do. At least this is written at sailing description

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You don't actually need the trade route for religious spread. You need the potential for a trade route.
Rivers without Sailing do spread the religion. Undiscovered tiles spread the religion as well.
Barb cities block it. War... hum... I can't remember, I believe war blocks the spread also.
(Edit : hum... Now I have the doubt. Maybe Sailing or a road is needed but not the knowledge of the route. You seem to be quite adept on the rules, Valergrad. )

I read about a conundrum about farming the pigs vs farming the wine. Didn't react at the time.
Provided you're working the pigs (and you should be), it's always better to farm the pigs.
The lone farm is always only +1F Empire-wide. It doesn't matter what tile the +1F comes from.
Having access to a 4F tile is good. Say you're size 5, it lets you work 2 food tiles and 3 hammer tiles. That sort of split gets a lot harder if you farm the wine before the pigs.
Early on, you should in fact compare the wine to forest tiles. You can trade a hammer for a couple of commerce. Depending on your objectives, that may or may not be worth it.
Just consider it a lake before it is farmed. Farming the pigs should definitely take priority (since that is a tile you will always be working).

 

[valergrad]

I've just realised that when I did prework for road on pigs ( at move T3 ) i could instead do prework for farm on the same tile. This could save me one turn for this farm now. One turn = one additional food. And apparently with this additional food city would grow from 3 to 4 one move faster that gives additional 1 hammer and commerce. And this later may be would cause some wonder or research 1 move later causing even more distinction from "optimal" play. I am so sad, this game is already not optimal And who would think that first mistake I would do at move 3! )

Anyway, I've calculated in the spreadsheet all possible scenarios for next 9 moves ( until T21) , with removing all that would be "not optimal". And it gives me that my several next moves should stay the same - concentrate efforts on growing ( no sense to go to commerce yet ). Of course, I felt the same way even without the spreadsheet, it is just the common sense, but now I can do mathematical proof that it is "optimal". For example, I can't get some benefit from getting tech earlier with concentrating on commerce.

So, T13.

Worker just finished the farm.
I am the worst enemy of Freddi again. It looks like he is in top9 on scoreboard now. But how this could happen? He has the same 42 points as it was one more before, he couldn't become higher unless some of AI haven't lost the points.

UPD. I've got it. It was me who got +3 points and now I am higher in the scoreboard. So, I've lost bonus from Freddi for good relationship to small civs, and now I am his worst enemy again.

Anyway, Freddi's worker/settler in Berlin has 17 hammers. With speed 7 hammers per move he will finish worker ( if this is a worker ) at move 16. If this worker will go build pasture on cows ( assuming Frederick learned AH), I could steal it at move 18. But if he learned not AH but something else, this worker probably would go on mine under Berlin with no chances for me to steal it.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I don't think you should be saddened. RNG is what is is. Optimal play is what it is.

In my very humble opinion, however, the prospect to play "1 turn per day" is flawed, even more so in OCC.
Having a plan for workers is always important, even determining. But, barring that (plans for workers), I believe you should have plans for a turnset rather than a lone turn.
I've been known to give up on games (and for good reasons) and... many times, when I catch up a game, I begin with a blunder. For example, I would be oblivious to a threat after having slept on my successes.
What I mean, here, is that concentration, focus, is something that you can use several turns in a row. And something that you can lose when you resume.
When you're unsure, sure, stop.
But you can at least play until the next objective (city has grown, a tech has been discovered, a new item has been built - and all in the meantime, worker management is the basis for it all).

Regards

 

[valergrad]

T14.
Fresh news:

Hinduism has been founded in the distance land! What are the bets - who was it? I see that Saladin got +6 scores, may be this is for the Polytheism?
The peace deal with Freddi expired. So, I could kill his scout, but decided not to do this as still hoping on the second worker steal.
Worker started farm on pigs.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, wait on the worker. You'll either spot it on the cows or on the grassland hills.
You can wait 2E of Paris for it.

 

[valergrad]

I don't think you should be saddened. RNG is what is is. Optimal play is what it is.

In my very humble opinion, however, the prospect to play "1 turn per day" is flawed, even more so in OCC.
Having a plan for workers is always important, even determining. But, barring that (plans for workers), I believe you should have plans for a turnset rather than a lone turn.
I've been known to give up on games (and for good reasons) and... many times, when I catch up a game, I begin with a blunder. For example, I would be oblivious to a threat after having slept on my successes.
What I mean, here, is that concentration, focus, is something that you can use several turns in a row.
When you're unsure, sure, stop.
But you can at least play until the next objective (city has grown, a tech has been discovered, a new item has been built - and all in the meantime, worker management is the basis for it all).

Regards

I understand this. But I can name several reasons to do this in my way.

1. This is my way for learning. For example, when I tried to get - what is Freddi producing, I have to read "Full guide on espionage" article on this forum to get this ( and a lot of other ) information.
Now I am learning what are the factors that affect attitudes - and can think of each of them, getting use to them one by one.
With this extremely slow play I can really think on each aspect, and not only think - even google strategy articles about this exact aspect and read them.

2. With this rule "1 ( sometimes 2 or 3) move 1 per day" I can get advices from some players there. I know, that when you playing you concentrate on plans, go into some kind of "stream", and because of this - you are missing a lot of different possibilities ( because you've stuck with the plan you've made earlier). It is know as the common mistake for the Civ4 player. In this way I can avoid it.
I know that players there can give me brilliant advices ( and they already did ), so this is a good possibility to learn too. If I'll play 15 moves at once, they could just ask "why on move 6 you didn't do this or that?", and this is not what I want

3. For now, when actually I almost have nothing to do for each move, I can dig into code and learn how some things actually works. To be honest, with my current workload I don't have time for it right now, but still this is possible in some next weeks.

4. I bet, nobody did this there before. Why not then?

 

[valergrad]

Yes, wait on the worker. You'll either spot it on the cows or on the grassland hills.
You can wait 2E of Paris for it.

btw, how to read this 2E, 1NW etc. codes for the tiles? Sorry for the stupid question.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Yeah, alright, all good points.
I was indeed thinking about the "flow". I've made many mistakes when discontinuing from the flow. But... I've also made many 1 turn sets when I did not know where to go. Tunnel vision is a thing. Forgetting what you're doing is a thing. Clicking "end turn" is a thing. There are many ways to go about it.
I get you. No worries. If, as an addition, you're getting informed in the meantime... You know what you're doing.

EWSN are just cardinal directions. 2W means 2 tiles West, 2S1E, you get it, etc.
"1NW" is sort of unclear, I'm not sure I would use it.

 

[krikav]

Regarding religious spread..
I think it's that it needs to be the potential for being connected to the trade network (being able to trade resources).

I met Cyrus who where already Jew when we first met.
There is no chance he has unfogged the entire path to me, but maybe he got the trade connection through some intermediary civ? Checked back a few turns since I was suprised by this, and it seems to me that it was that HE got sailing that caused the spread.
A possible path could have been that I have made a road to the river that is connecting ot one of alex cities (which I'm at war with), and those in turn are connected by road to Saladin, which is connected to Cyrus.

Have seen this to Elizabeth too, as soon as she researches sailing, Judaism jumps to her.
I have almost started to suspect that there is some higher than normal chance for spread, during the turn (or turns around) sailing is discovered. But that might just be observer bias.

 

[valergrad]

Regarding religious spread..
I think it's that it needs to be the potential for being connected to the trade network (being able to trade resources).

I met Cyrus who where already Jew when we first met.
There is no chance he has unfogged the entire path to me, but maybe he got the trade connection through some intermediary civ? Checked back a few turns since I was suprised by this, and it seems to me that it was that HE got sailing that caused the spread.
A possible path could have been that I have made a road to the river that is connecting ot one of alex cities (which I'm at war with), and those in turn are connected by road to Saladin, which is connected to Cyrus.

Have seen this to Elizabeth too, as soon as she researches sailing, Judaism jumps to her.
I have almost started to suspect that there is some higher than normal chance for spread, during the turn (or turns around) sailing is discovered. But that might just be observer bias.

In the code it is just looking to the functiion isConnectedTo for the plot of the city.
( there is no special cases for the Sailing, it works exactly how it is described there:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/natural-religious-spread.171581/#post-4072493 )

This function is really simple on the first sight:

bool CvPlot::isConnectedTo(const CvCity* pCity) const
{
FAssert(isOwned());
return ((getPlotGroup(getOwnerINLINE()) == pCity->plotGroup(getOwnerINLINE())) || (getPlotGroup(pCity->getOwnerINLINE()) == pCity->plotGroup(pCity->getOwnerINLINE())));
}

So, the first part is that PlotGroup should be the same.
OR plot group for the player should be the same as this city plot group for the player - I am not 100% sure I understand this , but this probably does mean that spread also works for city belonging to player even if it is not connected to the holy city.

How the plotGroups work? I don't know exactly, but you can see this values in the debug mode by pressing Shift on the tile. It is one the left-down at this screenshot:

So, for example I see that Paris and all passable tiles connected to Paris by higher river ( "Rhine" ) are in group 90121.
All passable tiles connected to the lower river ( "Loire" ) are in group 81927.
Wheat tile is in group -1, i.e. doesn't belong to any group.
Water tiles and within cultural borders and London (!) are in group 90121 - that's why I am connected to Lisa.
Tiles outside my cultural borders are in group -1.
But! Berlin is in group 163857 - probably game creates a new group for other players capitals.

When I'll make a new road I'll try to get this values again and look what is happening.

But you've right: we need to know plotGroup values not for me, but for source of religion i.e. Isabella.

 

[krikav]

Probably the wrong place to ask, but the opportunity is present so I'll do it anyway...
How do you enter debug mode...?

 

[Fippy]

I would have made some roads (on stone for travel to marble), wheat maybe or road towards Izzy.
I think that pigs farm is very marginal.