Deity Questions

[Silu]

Which, while annoying, is usually offset by the fact that a rush is much much easier (both & -wise) to set up and execute on slow speeds.

 

[Dirk1302]

@TMIT, i don't have as much experience with moving the settler as Snaaty did. He really moved settler for some 4 turns sometimes finding a better inland spot. I have never moved more than 1 turn actually.

@OP, i listed some deity games in my signature.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TMIT, i don't have as much experience with moving the settler as Snaaty did. He really moved settler for some 4 turns sometimes finding a better inland spot. I have never moved more than 1 turn actually.

@OP, i listed some deity games in my signature.

I guess I'll try and experiment on it when I can get some time again...both to see how strong it is and to see whether I can make the read to do it consistently.

 

[Grashopa]

I used to fairly often move my settler around on emperor. With say quechas or creative it can be useful if you find you can settle next to another capital. Even industrious would make me do it - settle next to another capital and then grab stonehenge. Hehe on Immortal University V - Cyrus I settled next to an AI and got 3 settlers out to almost block him in, but missed the stonehenge I needed since I wasn't creative.

But on deity? If you've got an I want to wander start post a settler move and others can shadow in place and compare.

 

[DMOC]

My text is in bold.

Hey Everyone,

I have recently started playing a bunch of Deity starts in an attempt to improve my game. I am very comfortable on Emperor and have success on Immortal as well (but think that fine-tuning my game on Deity will improve my performance here). I play on Normal Speed, Pangaea, default settings. After playing multiple starts, I have noticed some patterns and as a result have some questions. If you have any input on any of the questions, I would appreciate it.

1.) It seems fairly common to lose most opportunities for good city sites before I can even build a settler (usually Worker->Warrior->Settler). I take it this just comes with the territory?

If you're losing cities when you start with a worker-warrior-settler, then you must be on a pangea map or a map that's tight on land. I find that I can often grow to size 3 or 4 (rarely 5, though) and settle about 3 quality cities. However, there will be times when going settler first is required. In a recent warmonger challenge posted by Duckweed, I ended up going Settler - Settler. Yes, on deity. Result? 1870 AD conquest win. Usually you shouldn't bother with settler first unless you've settled on a tile giving you at least 2 starting hammers or you're playing an imperialistic leader.

Your early scouting unit and other AI's contact time will be vital for you to know how much space you've got.

2.) As I mentioned, I feel boxed in pretty quickly on most starts. So the land that is available tends to be far from ideal for city sites. Can you afford on Deity to settle sites without any food resource/floodplains (excluding Gem sites and strategic resources)? I am curious if I am just too stingy with what I consider a viable city site.

I have no qualms settling crappy city sites if they can help me get Oxford University and the Globe Theatre (which are 2 of the most important National Wonders for me, with the third probably being the National Epic). 6 are needed for a standard sized map. Alternatively, you can try capturing other cities if you're stuck at 5 (which is what I"m going to do in the ALC after I get back to it after the Oct SAT's).

3.) On the subpar city site note, I often find my only opportunity for a legitimately good city site is in jungles. However, IW seems to be a dead tech path to me. Researching it yourself keeps you from getting a tradeable tech, but holding out for Aesthetics usually means it is already too late to settle the sites. Settling them before IW usually results in a terrible city and drags research down. Generally are jungle city sites ignored pre-IW? I understand the importance of land and resource grabbing, but when production and research both suffer for it, it appears to be the wrong move.

This really depends on the lay of the land. I will often settle jungle cities early if they are riverside (health + trade route earlier) or if I happen to be lucky enough to settle on sugar. I rarely research Iron Working early, although I understand that other deity players have done so occassionally. If it's just plain jungle and won't be useful until 2000 years, skip it.

4.) Is there any real opportunity for bribery pre-CoL? I don't feel like I have any opportunities to bribe the AI in the early game and want to know if that is a problem with my game specifically.

Pre-CoL?

1. Oracle - Metal Casting
2. Aesthetics (see ALC 27 as an example)

5.) On the same note, are there really opportunities pre-CoL to manipulate the AI? Deity players stress the importance of diplomacy. But I feel like other than possibly choosing a religion to convert to and selection of your allies (an area I still need to improve), there is not much I can do diplomatically in the early game.

Know the AI's, unless you're playing random personalities. If a cautious, warless Ragnar is bordering you and demands Metal Casting a turn after you discover it, give it to him. If a war breaks out, debate whether to declare war to gain 1 side's favor, or staying in peace. This is where the Spiritual trait really comes in handy, especially if you've got 3 AI's asking you to switch religions. Also, don't settle cities right up to aggressive AI's as early border contact increases tension.

If you get declared, it's not over yet. Do whatever you can to bribe other AI's if possible (or if necessary). Station your troops on defensive terrain. Use the protective trait to the maximum, if you have it. Please understand that chariots get a bonus attacking axemen, but not defending axemen.

6.) Should espionage be a part of my pre-CoL game plan? It seems too early to really leverage, but I wanted to be certain.

NO

Well, I guess if you're playing an extreme espionage "economy" ... but for a normal deity game please don't.

Thanks a lot for any input you can give.

 

[mercury529]

Thanks again everyone for all the input.

On Advice From Non-Deity Players:
I agree that it is worth knowing what level someone plays at when they give advice. The more important thing though is simply analyzing the advice and evaluating its worth regardless of who it is coming from. Some advice will be obviously bad, some advice will be obviously good, and other advice will demand experimentation.

TheLazyHaze axe rush scenario may be completely implausible on Deity. However, the advice he gave at the end of his story was correct. On Deity, you may have to be more aggressive on the rush than you would on lower levels. Being too slow/conservative with the rush is often more dangerous than being too aggressive. It's all about identifying that window.

Troy:
Hard to tell where your sarcasm begins and ends . Your first post definitely told me I was way off track. Was your second intended purely sarcastically, or was I not as off base as you originally thought?

I am uninterested in the cheating/epic starting location wins on Deity. Frankly, I am not really concerned with winning on Deity at this point. I simply want to tighten up my opening game. Being able to open effectively on Deity with the cramped circumstances of Pangaea should make me a more effective player on Emperor and Immortal. And if I improve it enough, the first 60-75 turns will not cost me winnable positions on Deity.

DMOC:
Thank you for the advice. Like you guessed, I do play on Pangaea. it does get very cramped. Thank you for re-emphasizing the importance of AI contact time as a rough indicator of distance. It is a detail that I easily forget. The other advice was solid as well.

General Question:
So assuming you don't regenerate until you get a stellar start, how often do you abandon a deity game because of a seemingly un-winnable position or failed gambit?

 

[troytheface]

"Was your second intended purely sarcastically, or was I not as off base as you originally thought?"

you were not off base - a bit of fun no doubt- but posted an example of someone's winning conditions- one of which is pangea-

i suggest trying one or two of the things mentioned and post a screenshot for others to see to see how it pans out - since a win is not the goal-

in so far as the "when should you quit" general question- i suggest never surrender!
"The first thing to keep in mind is , after you have lost a city or a terrrible blunder has left you in a less than desirable position, the honor of a spirited defense. It is not waiting and slowly getting attacked behind walled cities then reloading- rather quite the opposite- dynamic defensive play set at all instances to launch a counter attack. This is true defense- not a Maginot line- but a Stalingrad"
(from Attacko's "the Art of Defense in Civ4")

 

[DMOC]

I hardly ever abandon deity starts because of unwinnable positions ... it's almost always due to a lack of time. If I played more games, then I'd start abandoning games because of failed gambits, etc.

Although you can reload if you want.

 

[mercury529]

I primarily abandon games because I really don't have enough time to play out losing games unless there is something educational to be gained. I will play some out if I think there is something educational to be gained (like troy mentioned with improving defense/counterattack).

So I guess the real question was how often do you deem a deity game virtually unwinnable because of a failed gambit or weak opening game (60-75 turns on normal)?

 

[Duckweed]

Just share some experience how I can be comfortable with Deity in ~ 3 months.

1. Pick a good leader when you advance to a new level, pick everything random while you can hardly win a game is nonsense.
2. Play slowly and think carefully from start to ~1AD or at most to Lib race, most games are determined in BC era, no need to waste time to play to the end.
3. Don't give up a game easily. Reload, especially from start and learn, just don't try to take the benefit of known map, but do the same scouting movement and try to optimize the build sequence and tech path -- every single food, hammer and commerce counts. Reload for battles and wonders should not be considered at any time.
4. Learn the diplomacy, which is not that easy as most people have thought. Your decision of tech path and when to trade out your techs is the most important and difficult part of diplomacy, which is also the biggest mistake people will make in the game. You need to be very familiar with AIs' personality to minimize this mistake.

BTW, don't understand why someone think most deity games have to be played with reloading -- absolutely wrong! I have played almost all the forum games without any intentional reloading, only if you want to call the 2~3 hour session break as reload. Then yes since I could not play 15~20 hours in one sit.

It's not the winning screens that tell people what level player you are, but the strategy that you can develop under any circumstance reveals the truth. Constant win at a certain level but with backward teching situation indicates that you are a weak player in this level. So advance to new level when you are able to win your current level with big tech lead.

 

[ppciv4]

all attempsts on deity should be respected.
personaly my chance of vioctory is around 2%

 

[troytheface]

ok - i cheated a bit with this by choosing Hammurabi- however -

Diety,Standard, Fractal, Random all else- Blue Marble Aqua

Start- settler march- hut nabs a scout- scout finds Ragnar-

 

[troytheface]

build in face- barracks first build- take worker- post scout on hill

-Drill bowmen- peace offered

Here is where specifics come into play because there is bronze near a third city Ragnar built - (Babylon is surrounded- not many units in the Viking secondary cities but Archers are the Bowmen's bane- with Babylon i want them to have bronze- just not horse- and cut back on the archers...(went out of the game here to get a screenshot of Hammurabi and lost the autosaves

the evidence is clear- playing Diety is as hard as clicking the "Diety" button on the difficulty screen.

 

[troytheface]

In so far as the thread's premise -
Options in lieu of circumstances

Fact- Problems- tech, land, land overly open to someone because of march- outgunned, no religion, no wonders possible

Fact- Options- Peace- Take Upsalla- lose Upsalla on purpose because i really want the capitol and want to raze Upsalla- drain cap defenders - 1 Guerilla bowmen- every other Drill-
an axe will hit a bowmen on a hill- counter bowmen kill axe.

Fact- Options- 2nd city build Eschelon style backward through the desert i built near -which- while some moan of dead tiles- i think a desert Babylon civ4 city thing is better than a cottage

Fact- Positives- Population is good- behind river- can pop bowmen or settler- free worker chop'n -can steal more free workers - barracks already built-unique unit in play- Buddhism founded so perhaps that as religion which matches the flag nicely and if they are near you can kill them and take those benefits-

Fact- Options- making them an Ally somehow and then taking thier capitol in a backstab -

Fact- What will not work- taking the secondary- waiting for a build to take the cap

Fact- Options- A stand like Beau Jes in the cap- with enough bowmen to slaughter bronze troops and archer alike- counter if enemy reserve is low and take cap- somehow get to a library
hope Rag builds the Great Wall- leave the stone unpillaged

 

[DMOC]

all attempsts on deity should be respected.
personaly my chance of vioctory is around 2%

I would suggest dropping to immortal and trying to win about 60-70% of games at least (on standard maps with 6 AI's and random leaders).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would suggest dropping to immortal and trying to win about 60-70% of games at least (on standard maps with 6 AI's and random leaders).

I can win >60%, maybe even 70% of immortal games with such settings (only thing disabled is events) and deity is still hell .

 

[mercury529]

I can win >60%, maybe even 70% of immortal games with such settings (only thing disabled is events) and deity is still hell .

How often would you say you win on Deity with the settings you typically run when you play Deity games (and what settings do you run)?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How often would you say you win on Deity with the settings you typically run when you play Deity games (and what settings do you run)?

For standard, non-cooked deity games with 6 opponents + normal speed, random leaders?

Maybe 10%, if that . I need to be able to block off a good bit of land, I need to actually do a good job with GPP, and I need a slow-tech rate from the AI (since I'm generally pretty slow) or a good bit of opportunism (even a cuirasser war is pretty easy on deity if they don't have rifles just yet and sent all their troops elsewhere).

Now, if I choose my opponents, play on marathon with a strong early UU, or manipulate the settings such that I'm just about guaranteed to be able to get the AP (I won LHC Stalin on deity with AP garbage for example), those odds probably go up to 50% or better.

I'd rather play standard settings immortal for now than cook the settings to win deity though, because I still learn from the games I lose, whereas cooked deity not so much.

 

[troytheface]

"or a good bit of opportunism"

"only thing disabled is events"

- contradictions-

contradiction in and of itself -as theory- however, may be valid
Contrary opinion- I suggest play to the events- catastrophism - anticipation and prerequesites-make the unseen an ally (cooked?)

this is the superior

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"or a good bit of opportunism"

"only thing disabled is events"

- contradictions-

contradiction in and of itself -as theory- however, may be valid
Contrary opinion- I suggest play to the events- catastrophism - anticipation and prerequesites-make the unseen an ally (cooked?)

this is the superior

Yes, cooked settings are the superior if the objective is to pick settings that increase the likelihood of winning.

Events do neither, they merely make the game more erratic. I suppose that is good when you're likely to lose, but it's still not fun for me. Winning UN because I gave the AI food from 1 city doesn't make me feel good I guess .