[BTS] Deity shadow game

[civac]

Despite arguing with the regulars here occasionally I am a struggling Immortal player in SP. Nevertheless, I have long considered taking a shot a deity just to cross it off the list of life time achievements. Settings are my usual fare:

Now, these settings are beyond my ability ordinarily. So we mount the training wheels.

Vicci is about as braindead powerful as is possible to find among Civ4 leaders. Starting techs are decent and the UB/UU doesn't matter. Could also chose Pacal or Willem maybe.

The other wheel are, of course, you, esteemed readers. Part of the reason for this thread is to force/induce myself to play slowly, but also to enlist the aid of experienced deity AI wranglers.

The starting position is appropriately silly:

Was a first roll, too. Hopefully, there is some happiness resource nearby.

Should I enclose the screenshot in spoiler tags?

 

[krikav]

Now, I have only tried once. But I have not been able to win deity with no tech trading. I know that NTT slows them down too, and gives you a larger window of opportunity to wage war, but still... Brokering techs is a big thing in my games.
So I for one consider that setting abit harder than normal. (Unless you find yourself in a iso map with Mansa abroad ofcourse! )

What do you mean with that start being silly? No river!
In all seriousness... financial coast and that lake compensate easily for the lack of an early river, the lovely oasis adds more yummyness.
This is the type of starts where I start to consider some weird oracle play.

Two wet corns and a cow is 3 6-yielders and completely awesome ofcourse.

Happines might be an issue here no doubt, but settling helpers 3N and 2N3E could work out nicely too.


Looks like jungle in the west, and there is clams here so we are likely in the middle of the map. I would sprint straight NW->NW->NW with the warrior and hope to meet some AIs before T5 for a bonus on agriculture.
Agri -> BW seems likely.

 

[Gumbolt]

Low sea level? That is asking for trouble. Deity AI will rex like crazy! Plus you could have some serious barb issues here.

 

[civac]

Looks like jungle in the west, and there is clams here so we are likely in the middle of the map.

Can you explain how clams indicate we are in the middle? I was not aware of that.

I would have walked 1SW with the warrior without thinking but you are right that with the jungle the north east is probably better. I assume that's the idea at least.

Settings are tailored to my preferences. I want to have a small amount of cities at least (8-10ish at a minimum) and also interact with the AI as little as possible other than those dealings which generally involve pointed sticks. Barbs are indeed an issue. I considered turning them off but the AI probably would not understand that.

Edit: I can delay choosing a tech until turn 5 (or turn 4)?

 

[krikav]

Have you decided on going for a quick workboat first? (plains hill center + 3H tile available T0) or worker first?
Clams first would give faster BW at least.

Clams are usually around the middle of the map, crabs are up in the north or in the south around the poles.
Sort of like elephants and dye/sugar and the other jungle resources.

I didn't see low sea level but I think that makes it abit harder.
But there are pros and cons with both. With low sea level you will likely get more cities, but there is a higher runaway risk too. And deity AIs in the lategame with alot of land can be very complicated to deal with!
I think I have played only one iso game with low sea level, and that game I lost to Justinian going culture T240 something.

It's T5 you can delay tech to.

 

[krikav]

I would not go east with the warrior, but north-west. North-east would have been better for second city info. But north-west my gut feeling tells me is more likely to yield contact. If it's only jungle crap in that direction you can pivot home with the warrior T6 and scout the natural second city spots.

 

[Fippy]

Workboat first looks weak here cos of Oasis.

 

[civac]

Yeah, I noticed the FIN oasis too. That's almost cheating. I did not really consider the wb option. It's sort of truism that wb starts aren't worth it with clam/crabs. But I will do some calculations.

 

[krikav]

Hmm.. perhaps, but oasis is only possible T6.
I'm thinking that the first 5 turns is a good opportunity to get the boat out.
Working the oasis one turn while boat is in transit, and then growing to pop2 for 5 more turns on the clam and only starting the worker at pop2 would yield a ton of commerce.
Worker would be out at T20 or so in that line, and will probably not have time for both corns until BW is in.

 

[drewisfat]

As mentioned settings aren't directly comparable to what's considered standard fare. NTT makes the game much harder especially on deity where the main way to maintain tech parity is with better trading than the AIs. The exception would be to starts with stone, as The Great Wall and full espionage economy is much much stronger on NTT. Low sea level also makes the game plenty harder. The more land the worse it is for the player, because AIs can not only expand more quickly but also pay less maintenance. No vassals will actually limit some of the hardest games where Mansa types just peacevassal to runaways, though it will also take longer to win via conquest or domination. Your standard cuir/cav breakout will take 1-2 AIs out instead of like 2-4. Fractal also makes it likely for larger maps and longer games than say pangaea.

I really wouldn't advise this for your first attempt to beat deity on SP. Even with decent start/leader, these are settings most players will lose on. Pangaea/medium sea level with tech trading would be much more doable, and if you're adamant on NTT, maybe even bump it to high sea level.

Workboat first is weak with oasis nonetheless fin oasis, and clams are not in the same universe of goodness as fish. Oasis + 2 corns, there's probably no reason to grab clams for a long time, like when a second city can share a corn. This is a normal worker first Agri->BW start in my book.

*edited out missinfo, shows how often I play NTT

 

[krikav]

Can you get techs in peacetreatys in NTT?

 

[civac]

I can't take techs in peace deals. One mover war with elephants or medieval units absolutely works. I have done the cuirassier breakout with bulbs and mass upgrades at least once on NTT/Immortal. Took out only one and a half big AIs but eventually my 30 cities pulled through even though the economy died completely. So that possibly works too. Cannons or drafted rifles + trebs should also work.

 

[krikav]

With my fondness for medieval warfare, I should probably try NTT more.

 

[SillyGoat]

Hmm.. perhaps, but oasis is only possible T6.
I'm thinking that the first 5 turns is a good opportunity to get the boat out.
Working the oasis one turn while boat is in transit, and then growing to pop2 for 5 more turns on the clam and only starting the worker at pop2 would yield a ton of commerce.
Worker would be out at T20 or so in that line, and will probably not have time for both corns until BW is in.

With 2 wet corn to be farmed 30H for +1 food looks like a poor exchange vs 60 hammers for a worker to improve the two 6 yield corn tiles.

WB first should yield a t17 worker (6 turns for the work boat and 11 turns for the worker). Worker first finishes the first corn farm on t17. I'd rather be working that than the 4F Clam.

I would consider putting off the workboat until after the first settler. +11 food at size 3 with 2 corn farms and Oasis is plenty for whipping Imp settlers.

 

[civac]

If you go worker->farm wet corn (x2) BW is slightly late (3 turns, possibly 2 with some KTBs). Economically, it's no contest.

 

[civac]

Played to turn 2. Starting area keeps getting less reasonable. But there is a big desert in the north. I'm considering moving SW, NE would also be an option.

 

[krikav]

Boat/Oasis path is a commerce heavy approach. Would yield much faster BW and would also open the door to some fun oracle gambits.
Ofcourse getting wet corns running faster would yield more foodhammers.

 

[SillyGoat]

2nd corn farm finishes t22, move t23 earliest possible chop start is t24.

Oasis is unworked t17 and 18, growth to size 3 happens eot 22 working either oasis or both corn. Taking the food save a turn growing to size 5 but not to size 4. With this much food I think it's worth the turn to swap to slavery to whip the first settler.


@civac Any chance of a 4000bc save?

(fake edit: WOW! 2nd city asap 1 north of the oasis to split off a corn and work the gold)

 

[krikav]

I would continue NW->NW->NW until T5 to maximize odds of meeting someone.

 

[civac]

@SillyGoat I'm a bit loathe to give out the save as I'm utterly terrible at not clicking spoilers but if you really want it I can upload it.

I will probably whip a second worker into the first settler. If my math is correct this should delay the settler only by 2 turns. In a vacuum this is slightly better technique as you don't get the IMP bonus divided out of overflow generated by the corn tiles. More importantly 2 workers should be good here with so many forests.

I would prefer the first new city along the coast with immediate trade routes and stronger production if possible. 1N of the oasis will definitely get a city though.