Deity WvO

[Solyaris]

I've played civ 4 BTS for quite some time now, but I've never mastered the highest difficulty (2 wins in 10+ games). I would appriciate comments and shadow games.

About leader:
I think WvO is one of the top tier leaders with creative and financial both decent early traits. UB and UU is both below average on pangea, but I find good traits to be more important than UB/UU anyways (unless for the superb warcarriot).

The start:

Spoiler :

Thoughts about the start? I think it's a fairly good start, we got marble, some early commerce/happy in 2 floodplains and a gold, although fairly foodpoor. SIP or on the SW PH? The PH tile might be a resource though, since everything else is forested. Move warrior 1 NW?

Techs: AH if no other food resource, then mining -> TW -> pottery?

 

[Seraiel]

Warrior 1 SE, because settling 1 E is an option. He's gonna reveal nothing most possibly, and SIP is very good in this case.

Also: You got Gold, you don't need Pottery. If you can do with fogbusting Warriors, you even don't need TW. Skip as many basic techs as you can affort, to earlier have Alpha. Your capital can grow size 3 (Cows, FP + Gold) and stay there until you got at least 3 cities.

 

[Solyaris]

Farm the floodplain then? West looks like more forests, but could be a resource SE of marble

Are you thinking AH -> mining -> writing -> alpha beeline?

 

[Solyaris]

SE scouting gave me more forests, so I'm going ahead with SIP.
This is the capital and surrounding area:

Spoiler :

I'm thinking worker 15t -> cows -> gold -> farm FP, size 3 settler.
As for scouting, I think going north east first -> along northern border for capital -> west -> along sourthern border of capital and new screenshot

 

[Fractal Spiral]

This start location definitely has lots of potential. I think you're right about not risking settling on that plains hill, that could be a copper or iron which we would want to work later. It looks like that river keeps going south through another floodplain though, hmm and maybe if we settle the plains hill we might be on the ocean coast which can be nice for a few reasons. I think I would probably settle that plains hill even though there is risk involved.

If we went that route we could put a second city on top of the marble. Then we can get to Masonry and Priesthood, in order to go Oracle fast although Oracle goes really early on Deity so there's some downside. So I guess my plan is capital is going to be a strong bureaucracy city, expand to marble as the second city and get some early Marble wonders or at least some fail-gold. Depending somewhat on the surrounding land and surrounding AI players.

Tech path something like The Wheel --> Pottery --> Mining then Masonry and to Priesthood.
If someone has built the Oracle during these techs then changing path to Aesthetics after Mining or so probably. Hoping some extra food is in reach of the city from the plains hill spot, if not just have to work Floodplains and grow while cottaging them, then try to get the second city fairly soon.

I've only played Deity a few times ever (recently I'm trying to win on Deity with Tokugawa as a personal challenge, to win a Deity game with Toku and standard settings on Fractal. its such a struggle haha Toku sucks ) but I'll try to do this game and let you know what happens hope this plan I wrote does well, if not maybe I'll start over and try other methods

 

[Solyaris]

I did end up SIP although your plan sound solid, please update so I see how it goes=)

As for oracle, I think it's a slightly overrated wonder, the free tech is awesome, but somewhat limited (you cant choose an expencive tech like music/callendar/CS on deity) and it could fail if we have Isabela in the game. Going priesthood/masonry also means ~400 beakers (almost the same as alpha) going into "bad" techs, and every beaker counts! Another note is that the capital is faily hammer poor (3H from gold, 6H from green hills and a suboptimal PH), another 1F4H3C tile would be very much welcome at a later point (esp after bureaucracy).

TW sounds like a solid tech for me (early TR boost for 2C), but Im unsure about pottery. We dont need granaries at this point (better to have a few extra warriors for FoW) and our worker might not have the time to build expencive flood-plain cottages (should instead go for 2nd city/build roads to 2nd city)

 

[Seraiel]

I did end up SIP although your plan sound solid, please update so I see how it goes=)

As for oracle, I think it's a slightly overrated wonder, the free tech is awesome, but somewhat limited (you cant choose an expencive tech like music/callendar/CS on deity) and it could fail if we have Isabela in the game.

Oracling Civil Service or Feudalism definately is possible on Deity, I've done it various times already, but only getting Currency is also already a tremendous advantage. With some and an Alpha-beeline, Oracle Currency is possible in about 30-50% of the games.

Going priesthood/masonry also means ~400 beakers (almost the same as alpha) going into "bad" techs, and every beaker counts! Another note is that the capital is faily hammer poor (3H from gold, 6H from green hills and a suboptimal PH), another 1F4H3C tile would be very much welcome at a later point (esp after bureaucracy).

I wouldn't research Masonry either, even with having Marble. Oracle is a cheap Woner, no resource is needed to build it, better trade for Masonry with Alpha.

TW sounds like a solid tech for me (early TR boost for 2C), but Im unsure about pottery. We dont need granaries at this point (better to have a few extra warriors for FoW) and our worker might not have the time to build expencive flood-plain cottages (should instead go for 2nd city/build roads to 2nd city)

I btw. would never have settled the Plains-Hill, mainly because of the city lacking freshwater then and because SIP really looked good from the revealed tiles.

Farming 1 of the Floodplains while Pottery isn't available yet is ok, maybe even farm both.

Regarding Alpha, you need to evaluate how good you can defend your land. If you tech AH and find Horses, go Alpha afterwards, if no Horses, going for BW is probably needed.

 

[Solyaris]

Since the early turns seemed pretty straightforward I went ahead and did the 21 first turns. The situations looks like this:

Spoiler :

I've met saladin to the west (turn 19, so probably fairly far away), to the north is only sea, south looks like mostly jungle, east and west have some decent (but not great) spots. Techs: AH, mining, agri., fishing.

Should I tech TW or go straight for alpha? Or maybe Oracle? Im open for suggestions
Where should I settle? Site 1 have gold/cow/PH, site 2 have horse/wheat/greenhill, site 3 have shared floodplain and another floodplain for growth, but looks slow (no visible resources).
Capital to size 3 or 4 before 2nd settler (farm + PH(?) + gold + cows)? We probably have enought time to grow to size 4 and still get both spots, but size 3 might be better as our 2nd city will quickly have a 5 yeild tile.

 

[Solyaris]

Oracling Civil Service or Feudalism definately is possible on Deity, I've done it various times already, but only getting Currency is also already a tremendous advantage. With some and an Alpha-beeline, Oracle Currency is possible in about 30-50% of the games.

Yeah, I've seen some of your games and it's amazing when it works, but for learning I think I shouldn't relay on oracle fudalism

Regarding Alpha, you need to evaluate how good you can defend your land. If you tech AH and find Horses, go Alpha afterwards, if no Horses, going for BW is probably needed.

We have horses (look at new screenshot), the question is wheter we want in the 2nd or 3rd city. I'm tempted to go straight for horses, as it looks like we have a open area to the SE (no AI from that direction), could be problems with only warriors for defending and I guess we don't get 3 cities before barbs start to enter our land. What do you think about TW -> writing -> alpha?

 

[Seraiel]

It's a little risky, but I'd skip TW too, because: The land definately can be 90% defended with just 2 Warriors! 1 Warrior 1S of the 2nd Gold, once you build the city move 2S, and the other Warrior 2S of Horses. Your capital's borders will also pop again very early, because you're CRE, which reveals almost all tiles to the W, to the E, to the N and S is water.
I won't say anything though, if you tech TW and settle the Horses first, TW is only a small tech and will only make little difference, question should be though, what Chariots could do better if you defend the 2 spots I talked of.

I'd also settle city 1 1NE on the PH, because FIN-coast are actually good tiles, and I evaluate 1 extre more than 1 shared Cottage with the capital. 2 is ok, I'd probably settle it 1NE on the Wheat though. Gives more Food because Fishes are stronger than dry Wheat and you get a lighthouse-lake additionally. This ofc is only because you're CRE and have easy borderpops, with non-CRE I'd settle where you marked.

City 3 maybe is better 1E, therefor, the territory must be revealed. Maybe there's a Food-source over there.

Capital should stay size 3 until the first 2 Settlers are out. If you want another unit for Fogbusting, 4 is ok aswell though.

Let's hope Salladin goes Missionary Strategy and spreads Hinduism fast to you .

 

[oranje willem]

I would settle the horse city first to deal with barbarians and maybe put it 1 north giving an extra hill, which makes it an extremely nice production site with some farms. You won't lose any good tiles by settling north, even granting sea access, although that's not too great (could be nice to prebuild workboat for filler city ). You also gain some hammers by not losing a forest (even taking the further distance to the forests in the south into account).

 

[Solyaris]

Thanks for the advice. I've taken both into consideration and ended up with the following turns (untill turn 50);

Turn 32 I meet England (churchill) with a boat from the east (he seems to be close, can see his borders)
Turn 48 I meet Montezuma from the south, seems to be far away tho
Turn 51 (last) I meet Mao, also from the south

Settled gold/cow city first, as I could see Saladins borders and got worried the spot might be taken. Wanted to settle on PH, but ended up coastal between cow/gold, since I got worried saladin could steal the gold with a border city. 3 warriors spawnbusting, 1 killed by an archer, which made me grow capital to size 4 while building another warrior before 3rd settler (got worried about barbs from south).

@ turn 50 I'm 2 turns from alphabeth, 2 cities (1 more coming in 2 turns, currently walking to site 2). 4 warriors (2 spawnbusting), 1 worker walking towards the soon to be 3rd city.

World overview:

Spoiler :

Techs: after AH -> writing -> alpha (2 turns away)


Issues:
What would be the best spot for city 4? I'm thinking south, but there are several decent spots. Currently thinking the best would be the spot I've marked "with corn", although it's not riverside and lack dye, it does have a food resource, 3 green + 1 FP riverside, 1 green hill. Could be a decent early commerce city. A better longterm commerce city would be the one I call double dye, but it's also possible to settle both.

Whats the best techpath? I'm thinking trading all the early techs -> currency OR maths (followed by calendar). Another possibility is litterature and TGL.

As for winning condition; too early to tell, but if we are going catapults, it has to be decided fast. Consider we still have plenty of space, I'm leaning more towards a midgame war rather then early war.

As for production in capital: settler -> doublewipped into worker -> granery?
City 2 is currently producing another worker

City spesialization:
Capital: Production + GP (not enough riverside tiles for a decent beauro.)
City 2: Commerce (gold + water tiles)
City 3: Production/wonders evt. military
City 4: Probably commerce along southern river
City 5/6: Not decided yet, but 1 of them will probably be part GP city

 

[Solyaris]

I would settle the horse city first to deal with barbarians and maybe put it 1 north giving an extra hill, which makes it an extremely nice production site with some farms. You won't lose any good tiles by settling north, even granting sea access, although that's not too great (could be nice to prebuild workboat for filler city ). You also gain some hammers by not losing a forest (even taking the further distance to the forests in the south into account).

I agree with you and will put the city 1N, that would be an excelent production spot! As for which city first, I ended up going west for my 1st city, as I got worried the spot might be taken if I delayed it too much.

 

[Solyaris]

It's a little risky, but I'd skip TW too, because: The land definately can be 90% defended with just 2 Warriors! 1 Warrior 1S of the 2nd Gold, once you build the city move 2S, and the other Warrior 2S of Horses. Your capital's borders will also pop again very early, because you're CRE, which reveals almost all tiles to the W, to the E, to the N and S is water.
I won't say anything though, if you tech TW and settle the Horses first, TW is only a small tech and will only make little difference, question should be though, what Chariots could do better if you defend the 2 spots I talked of.

I did take your advice going directly for alpha, which turned out fine. Only 1 warrior loss, and I doubt there will be anymore barb trouble now.

I'd also settle city 1 1NE on the PH, because FIN-coast are actually good tiles, and I evaluate 1 extre more than 1 shared Cottage with the capital. 2 is ok, I'd probably settle it 1NE on the Wheat though. Gives more Food because Fishes are stronger than dry Wheat and you get a lighthouse-lake additionally. This ofc is only because you're CRE and have easy borderpops, with non-CRE I'd settle where you marked.

Agreed on city 1, but in the end I settled 1S of PH, it seemed possible that Saladin could settle a border city and steal the gold tile. As for city 2, I think its better to settle 1W of wheat (as Oranje Willhelm suggested). My thinking is the following; fish needs 30H for fishboat, needs another 30H to be a 6 yeild tile and give max 2 green hills + horses (vs 4 green hills + marble + horses) which makes it a decent, but not great producion city. In the end I hardly think it will mather tho, as its a close call.

What do you think about next tech after alpha? Would you still go straight for currency?

 

[Seraiel]

1. Take the spot with the Corn, because you don't have Corn as a resource yet. Having it will make keeping your cities healthy a lot easier.
Also: Arbitary cities don't need freshwater, only the capital really needs it, because it's the only city that grows large enough.

2. Never tech Calendar! AIs always do that, it's very easy to get by trade.

3. Your capital should be cottaged and work as a Buro capital. Don't care about that it has only little riverside tiles, it has Food, it has Grasslands, and Cottages give 3 for Willem after having grown to Hamlets.

Tech-wise I'd go for Math before Currency, because Currency needs you to have more cities to be great, Math enhances the chops which lets you get more cities faster.
After Math + Currency, I usually go CoL -> CS. Aesthetics is mainly a useless tech, only Literature is good, so try to trade for Aesthetics and focus on the path to Liberalism via Civil Service.

I also don't see any early rush in this game. You got good and plentyful land to rex to, so it's probably a 6-7 cities Cuirrassier game.

Don't build too many Workers. With good management, 1 Worker / city + 1 extra for the capital is enough. Skip on building roads so you get sufficient amounts of improvements (4-6) first.

 

[Fractal Spiral]

Played for a little while now and took a break, up to where I've gotten Liberalism and teched a little past it and about to build an army. It's nice to have a start area like this where you can get some land and have decent cities and good traits for development
I was off on some things in my strat and I had to adjust them. I moved onto that plains hill but turned out its next to a Fresh Water lake not coast like I imagined (I shouldve checked hover over the tile to see if it has fresh water), and I settled the Plains hill but I didn't have any extra stuff available no food etc that direction Sooo I think settling the Plains hill was a bit of a mistake.

Also the tech path was kinda slow and that Alphabet beeline is really good so maybe I should've done that instead. I did the path I wrote though, but I had to add in Animal Husbandry. I found without Animal Husbandry building a Settler would take way too long. Ended up I got the cottages up, Masonry, Priesthood etc and ended up getting Code of Laws from the Oracle. Didn't do too much for me though, didn't really use Code for anything except later trades I guess.. well I ended up teching Aesthetics and used that to get Alpha, got tech going and built cities squeezed in my area to get 7 cities total

While trying to set up the last few cities, I also got Literature and the Great Library. Then tech towards Liberalism etc. Ended up I have an ok position, but the AIs aren't that far behind, and I didn't get that many cities / didn't gain anything in early wars etc. The AIs are distracted a little though with wars against each other so that's good. Have to see how well can I use Cuirassier and keep a military mindset for the rest of the game, going to try to keep growing and growing, and try to somehow also upgrade the military as it goes.

 

[Solyaris]

Played a bit further to 1000BC

Did a bunch of trades, no point showing them all, but mainly got the early techs + gave away alpha to get most AI's to pleased. Bronze popped up close to corn site, making it a clear next city.

Main highlights:
- I got buddism, although I don't think I should convert to it, seems to dangerous. Thoughts?
- Montezuma whent into WHEOOH, I could be a target, but seems more plausable that he will attack America. They share border, hate eachother, and I was at pleased when he whent into WHEOOH. Feel relativly safe.
- Had to emergencywhip another settler to get 2nd city south, settled along the river with 2 dyes in BFC. Should be a decent auxillary commerce city.
- Both coastal cities are getting lighthouses for a commerce boost
- First to maths, given away for more +trade with AI + iron working
- Looks like we are stuck on 6 cities, all decent however =)
- As Seraiel suggested Im going currency next
- Capital is getting cottaged
- Agreed on a demand from Montezuma to close borders with America, although it makes a wine-trade impossible. Just to worried he will attack me if not.

Overview:

Spoiler :

Techtree:

Spoiler :

Trades available:

Spoiler :

Plan:
Techs: currency -> CoL -> CS
Workers: get to 7, improve cities and make roads when appropriate
Cities: get a GS ASAP, build libraries in all cities but corn/bronze (discount + possible to get GS)
Stay out of war

Thoughts?

 

[Seraiel]

Let your cities grow and maximise . Try to generate 2 GSs simultaniously, so you can build an Academy and bulb Education. Chop out the necessary buildings and start building Cottages. Once you got Granaries and Forges, pre-build HAs to later upgrade them to Cuirrassiers. Build a Market in one city to hire two Merchants so you can send a GM on a TM for upgrading.
Try to get some civs on friendly and try to get Salladin into war, so you can safely adopt Buddhism. Settle the last city. Grow the capital.

 

[Solyaris]

Played for a little while now and took a break, up to where I've gotten Liberalism and teched a little past it and about to build an army. It's nice to have a start area like this where you can get some land and have decent cities and good traits for development
I was off on some things in my strat and I had to adjust them. I moved onto that plains hill but turned out its next to a Fresh Water lake not coast like I imagined (I shouldve checked hover over the tile to see if it has fresh water), and I settled the Plains hill but I didn't have any extra stuff available no food etc that direction Sooo I think settling the Plains hill was a bit of a mistake.

Also the tech path was kinda slow and that Alphabet beeline is really good so maybe I should've done that instead. I did the path I wrote though, but I had to add in Animal Husbandry. I found without Animal Husbandry building a Settler would take way too long. Ended up I got the cottages up, Masonry, Priesthood etc and ended up getting Code of Laws from the Oracle. Didn't do too much for me though, didn't really use Code for anything except later trades I guess.. well I ended up teching Aesthetics and used that to get Alpha, got tech going and built cities squeezed in my area to get 7 cities total

While trying to set up the last few cities, I also got Literature and the Great Library. Then tech towards Liberalism etc. Ended up I have an ok position, but the AIs aren't that far behind, and I didn't get that many cities / didn't gain anything in early wars etc. The AIs are distracted a little though with wars against each other so that's good. Have to see how well can I use Cuirassier and keep a military mindset for the rest of the game, going to try to keep growing and growing, and try to somehow also upgrade the military as it goes.

When did you attack with cuirassier, how many did you use and whom did you attack?

 

[Fractal Spiral]

Well just played the game more this morning now, and my plan has ended in giving up after being too impossible to win the war now I think. The AIs ended up in Vassal-groups, except Saladin. Saladin's not got any particular ally and all my espionage has been on him all the time. Saladin hasn't been in a war all game though and he has stacked up troops, plus he has the military tech going. I got up a group of Cuirassier soon as I could, but by the time I had 14 and attacked, he's already had Gunpowder and Military Tradition for awhile, and he now just got Rifling. So I looked at his border city and he has a Rifle and a few Cavalry plus bunches of protective Longbows. I fell too far behind this game I guess.. at this point I've only got the 14 or so Cuirassier and my research is like 90 beakers per turn, at 40% after building troops and whipping a bunch. Seems really bad.. but I did manage to use a Spy revolt and then attack that city, and my army got wrecked while he still has longbows and stuff left so I gave up.

So unfortunately all I could muster was a fairly weak Cuirassier attack into superior tech units and protective Longbows, I wish I could've gone for Lincoln maybe but he was capitulated by Suryavarman + Mao alliance. I guess I should've gotten further ahead faster or gone for a different attack or something. I think I'll try again, I could've done a much better tech game to prep for war sooner, or should I try a different strat than Cuirs? I dunno I kind of wanted to try Space Race at first, but it seemed like that's too risky on Deity if I only have a small land position.