Denmark

[Fragamemnon]

Wrapping up an Immortal game with Denmark. Tons of war, and even on a mostly Pangaea map I found the fast movement through water and pillage+heal to be a good boost. I do wish there was a buff to fighting within three tiles of coast, invariably (again, even on the strictest of Pangaea maps) you have a lot of coastal warfare. Berserkers are fine, even if you don't have a neighbor you can smash with them, you can just use them to gobble a few city-states.

Jelling Stones were about as appealing as a flat coke. They felt like they were doing about 1/2 as much per-kill output as they should be doing all game. They should be available at Fishing so you can put more emphasis on the lower half of the tree so you can enjoy some power time with berserkers at classical. The UB used to be OP as all get out before supply caps and the higher scaling, but now wars are more decisive and culture scales slower.

 

[CrazyG]

Jelling Stones were about as appealing as a flat coke

You may be the first person to ever report finding the Danish UA good but the Jelling stones bad. I do find the Danish useful, some seem to think its worthless but it does have its moments. Before roads are common it can be a huge advantage.

The awkward thing about Jelling Stones is the scaling with era. In order to not be ridiculously broken later on, they have to be have those low classical era yields. Its really not bad in classical era though, and by medieval its already really strong.

 

[ElliotS]

Denmark just feels like a worse Greece right now. Jelling stones are a bit better than Geece's UB, but their UU is worse and their UA is much worse.

Denmark had all of it's power placed in the formerly OP jelling stones, but now those are nerfed and the civ feels lackluster. I think Denmark needs something small to their UU and UA.

UU should get 2 CS and UA should either:
-give a CS boost near coastal tiles
-give naval units a boost
-something combat-y

 

[Owlbebach]

Denmark just feels like a worse Greece right now. Jelling stones are a bit better than Geece's UB, but their UU is worse and their UA is much worse.

Denmark had all of it's power placed in the formerly OP jelling stones, but now those are nerfed and the civ feels lackluster. I think Denmark needs something small to their UU and UA.

UU should get 2 CS and UA should either:
-give a CS boost near coastal tiles
-give naval units a boost
-something combat-y

Haven't tried Denmark yet, but maybe it can be fixed with changing yields drom Jelling Stones to something like +5/+2 so it will be less similar to Greece

 

[ElliotS]

Haven't tried Denmark yet, but maybe it can be fixed with changing yields drom Jelling Stones to something like +5/+2 so it will be less similar to Greece

I don't think Jelling Stones are the problem. They're about even with Greece's UB right now, and different enough.

My problem is that their other stuff is very meh. The city attack gold is nice and can help maintain a warpath, but overall their UA isn't up to par. Before I rated the Jelling Stones as a 15 point out of 10 UB, now I would scale it down to 10. War exhaustion and the nerf are both hits to it, but it still provides great yields of great yield types.

However Denmark's lackluster UA and slightly below average UU both cause me concern. Their UU I could ignore as it's not terrible and can be devastating with a good timing, but the combination of them making Denmark's Swordsmen worse by virtue of needing to upgrade them too quickly and the fact that they're not much better than regular longswordsmen and lose to knights makes me think they deserve a small buff.

Honestly I'd rather have swordsmen replaced by Berserkers with 16 CS, then give them +3 CS at metal casing and +3 CS at steel. This would solve the swordsmen being worse issue too.

As for their UA I think it needs something else. It's possibly the worst in the game right now. It could be directly tied to combat or something to help them outside of the battlefield, but it's so lackluster.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Denmark just feels like a worse Greece right now. Jelling stones are a bit better than Geece's UB, but their UU is worse and their UA is much worse.

Denmark had all of it's power placed in the formerly OP jelling stones, but now those are nerfed and the civ feels lackluster. I think Denmark needs something small to their UU and UA.

UU should get 2 CS and UA should either:
-give a CS boost near coastal tiles
-give naval units a boost
-something combat-y

Maybe we should add something like "-50% unit upgrade cost" to Denmark so the AI wastes less gold on upgrading Swordsmen? In addition to that or instead of that, I think the UA should get bonus damage against cities for all melee units to at least make the Gold steal easier to use or more heals from pillaging. Berserkers are okay because they come a bit earlier and have two promos they'd have no access to otherwise, and they'd benefit from such an UA improvement.

 

[Owlbebach]

I've recently tried new Denmark and it is just awful. It seems really nice and fun on paper, probably it may work on lower difficulties, but on Deity - just no way.

Problem is that Denmark has no bonuses for fighting. Jelling Stones force you to go war, but you do not have a single advantage in a war! Bonuses are for pillaging enemy tiles, and if you can pillage enemy tiles - that means you already won the war.

 

[Gokudo01]

Denmark has been nerfed directly and indirectly too many times. moreover, the new mechanism provided by the combo UA + UB doesn't bring something unique and is worthless for a human.
Yes I'm pillaging whenever i can, but I will never go out of position in order to pillage more. The first objective is always to take cities because cities brings you more global yield and more strategic/luxury resources.

Denmark gameplay has always been turning around perma war. killed units were fuelling your war/infrastructure efforts. But, now perma-war has been nerfed into the ground and you get production/culture from pillaging.
At low difficulty, you are able to move freely into your foes' land but some tiles don't get an improvement until industrial era. At high difficulty, almost everything is improved but there are so much units to fight and so much reinforcement that you can't break through the enemies until their armies have been broken .
At this point, as said owlbebach, you have already won the war. the UB effects is in a worse situation than before.
When it was tied to killing units, the bonus was always useful because even while defending a city with 3 units you were able to kill some . now you have to win the war or you wont be able to pillage ( at high difficulty without losing your units )
it's a bigger win more effect.

Conclusion :
Denmark was before top tier at high difficulty because you were able to get so much yields from the endless flow of units that getting no bonus for war and two niche bonus from UA was fine.
Now you can NOT perma-war anymore without being crushed by war weariness and the on-pillaging effects is less effective, the UB is average.
I think that tabya now, is stronger and is at least on the side of their unique unit ...

 

[Txurce]

I view the pillaging as historically apt, and figure it works best in raids -- the sort that are still feasible, and crippling, in the era of the Berserker. That it carries over into modern times strikes me as coincidental.

 

[Galbias]

Haven't tried them post-Runestone but they definitely look weak on paper overall. I wonder if giving melee/gun units a unique ability would help, like what Huns get with mounted melee/armor and Mongols get with mounted ranged. Maybe something along the lines of 10hp heal on kill that stacks with the Authority policy (encouraging being recklessly aggressive, which is something I've always associated with vikings) and/or a cleave effect on attack, similar to the splash damage promotion.

 

[Gazebo]

Denmark has been on my radar lately - the AI suffers with them, as they don't use their UA to potential sometimes. Anyways, here's my testing changes, working well thus far:

Denmark - Runestone now 100 instant culture (was 25)

• UA: Removed promotion stuff on second half. Added: Melee Land units gain Viking Promotion ; Melee Naval the Longboat Promotion
• Viking: Costs no Movement points to Pillage. Gain 200% of damage dealt to Cities as Gold. 25% Combat Strength on Pillaged Tiles, and -25% Damage from Cities.
• Longboat: Costs no Movement points to Pillage. Gain 200% of damage dealt to Cities as Gold. Ignores Zone of Control, and takes -20% Damage from Cities.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Denmark has been on my radar lately - the AI suffers with them, as they don't use their UA to potential sometimes. Anyways, here's my testing changes, working well thus far:

Denmark - Runestone now 100 instant culture (was 25)

• UA: Removed promotion stuff on second half. Added: Melee Land units gain Viking Promotion ; Melee Naval the Longboat Promotion
• Viking: Costs no Movement points to Pillage. Gain 200% of damage dealt to Cities as Gold. 25% Combat Strength on Pillaged Tiles, and -25% Damage from Cities.
• Longboat: Costs no Movement points to Pillage. Gain 200% of damage dealt to Cities as Gold. Ignores Zone of Control, and takes -20% Damage from Cities.

Isn't 100 a bit too much? It gives about as much Culture as it costs Production, and people might sell them to rebuy them early in the game to gain benefit. It'd be better to keep it about where it is, but increase it's base yields. Or simply remove maintenance, so it cannot be sold anymore, though 100 might be a problem either way. The promos look crazy good and might be too much, but that's the sort of thing that's better seen in practice.

 

[CrazyG]

I remember playing a game as Carthage on the mediteranean map where I abused gold for city attack. It was a fun strategy, but not particularly viable. Maybe the longboat promotion will make that happen

 

[Enginseer]

It gives about as much Culture as it costs Production, and people might sell them to rebuy them early in the game to gain benefit.

They can try but that got patched when someone mentioned the Circus exploit.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I'm playing a hot-seat game with Denmark right now vs. Carthage. Those changes sound like they'd have me slightly ahead instead of slightly behind, assuming I had played the same. I approve. Don't release a new patch until I finish the game tho, deal? Our hot-seat games only last 2-3 months tops. It'll be fine.

 

[Owlbebach]

Denmark has been on my radar lately - the AI suffers with them, as they don't use their UA to potential sometimes. Anyways, here's my testing changes, working well thus far:

Denmark - Runestone now 100 instant culture (was 25)

• UA: Removed promotion stuff on second half. Added: Melee Land units gain Viking Promotion ; Melee Naval the Longboat Promotion
• Viking: Costs no Movement points to Pillage. Gain 200% of damage dealt to Cities as Gold. 25% Combat Strength on Pillaged Tiles, and -25% Damage from Cities.
• Longboat: Costs no Movement points to Pillage. Gain 200% of damage dealt to Cities as Gold. Ignores Zone of Control, and takes -20% Damage from Cities.

This doesn't solve an issue, you still need to pillage something to get the bonus. In order to be playable on high difficulties Harald needs something to benefit from defensive war, not only from ofensive

Personally, i really liked the old version with hammers per kill, the only problem was that it overlaps too much with Greece, and when it was +5/+5 it was snowballing too hard in the late game. Maybe give Harald a non-culture bonus on kills? Something like +5/+3? The mechanics itself is a lot of fun

On a side note: I'd love to see Shaka getting +5 per kill in every city

 

[Txurce]

This doesn't solve an issue, you still need to pillage something to get the bonus. In order to be playable on high difficulties Harald needs something to benefit from defensive war, not only from ofensive.

But the Vikings were all about offensive. I'd leave that alone, and find some other way to buff Denmark, if what Gazebo's doing winds up being insufficient.

 

[Owlbebach]

But the Vikings were all about offensive. I'd leave that alone, and find some other way to buff Denmark, if what Gazebo's doing winds up being insufficient.

Well, my thought are not bound to historical truth here, just the gameplay. The problem is that starting from Immortal you can't just attack AI. You have to declare a war, than defend, kill 30+ units on your own territory and then slowly move forward. And Harald as a pure warmonger needs to benefir from that

 

[Txurce]

Well, my thought are not bound to historical truth here, just the gameplay. The problem is that starting from Immortal you can't just attack AI. You have to declare a war, than defend, kill 30+ units on your own territory and then slowly move forward. And Harald as a pure warmonger needs to benefir from that

I know what you mean, so will try to amplify a bit on my point. If you're playing Carthage, you're not going to defend yourself and kill 30+ units before attacking, right? You're going to hit somebody hard in the water when they're not ready for it, and build yourself a strong early empire that allows you to go downhill the rest of the way.

Could Denmark do something similar by raiding? That is, pillage, take coastal cities, and basically wear a non-adjacent enemy down? Yes, in the long run, they're going to need a real army and engage in a real land war. The idea would be to have built up a strong empire as a raider that gives you the assets to win, despite lacking a strong defensive UU.

But maybe this doesn't work on Immortal anymore.

 

[Owlbebach]

I know what you mean, so will try to amplify a bit on my point. If you're playing Carthage, you're not going to defend yourself and kill 30+ units before attacking, right? You're going to hit somebody hard in the water when they're not ready for it, and build yourself a strong early empire that allows you to go downhill the rest of the way.

Could Denmark do something similar by raiding? That is, pillage, take coastal cities, and basically wear a non-adjacent enemy down? Yes, in the long run, they're going to need a real army and engage in a real land war. The idea would be to have built up a strong empire as a raider that gives you the assets to win, despite lacking a strong defensive UU.

But maybe this doesn't work on Immortal anymore.

Not sure about Immortal, but my friend tried exactly this idea on Epic Deity, and i can guarantee it doesn't work. Lost units just do not pay off. The only way to fight AI is to fight effectively and once upon a time you'll have lvl4 horses that can heal every turn and sniper-archers. ANd when you have them - you can move forward