Design: Improvements

[loki1232]

Windmills also get an additional commerce from the financial trait. So eg when playing with that Khazad leader with the financial trait, building windmills becomes more profitable than mines. Doesn't feel very dwarvy to me.

Yes, except that you have to wait a long time for windmills.

 

[Zurai]

Oh yeah, there's also the fact that mines pull up copper/iron/mithril/gold/gems; the chance for that to happen might need a little increase, though, since there are fewer mineables than in vanilla (copper, iron, silver, gold, gems, aluminum, and I believe uranium).

 

[Civmansam]

I think that there should be a dwarven mine improvement that can be built in mountains. The mine automatically gives +3 hammers and +3 Gold. It also automatically discovers copper/iron/mithril/gold/gems. The mine also allows passage through that mountain. It would make sense because Dwarves are always working under mountains.

 

[loki1232]

Slightly overpowered perhaps? But yes i agree with you totally. What if all the mine did was automatically discover one of the metals? (or gems). That way it would be more balanced but still cool.

 

[Chalid]

How about introducing a new Ressource that will not be placed on the map but can only be dicovered by a dwarfen mine?

 

[loki1232]

How about introducing a new Ressource that will not be placed on the map but can only be dicovered by a dwarfen mine?

Silver?
Message too short

 

[AndrewDJ]

How about introducing a new Ressource that will not be placed on the map but can only be dicovered by a dwarfen mine?

Silver?

Really, dwarven mines should uncover mithril, if we're being "traditional".

How about allowing a new improvement, "Dwarven Mine" that grants production and commerce, with an increased chance of finding a resource. The Khazad and Luchiurp could build them right away, but everyone else would need to be Runes of Kilmorph with knowledge of Dwarven Mining.

Alternatively, for the Luchiurp and Khazad, the Dwarven Mine would replace the normal mine and normal cottages, and evolve like a cottage?

 

[Sureshot]

Forts need some work I think. In Vanilla Civ they're pretty useless, with Bloom spell they're somewhat useful though it may be a bug (if it is a bug then they're even worse than Vanilla Civ). Why? Fort adds +25% def bonus, and best scenario without Bloom is placing it on a hill (placing it on woods or a jungle destroys them, reducing def by 50%) which is still only +50% and only as good as a forest alone, and worse than a forest on a hill.

With bloom you're better off just putting a forest instead of a fort (+50% instead of +25%) [assuming that the ability to Bloom on a fort is a bug]

Are there special bonuses I'm missing?

If not, Forts need something, some ideas:
+50% def bonus or even +75%, but require Stone resource to build
Buildable in neutral lands, maybe even enemy lands (I think they're only buildable in your own borders)
Buildable by military units (long build time, possibly consume the unit)
Slow XP gain to stationed units
Adjacency autoattacks (was in Civ 3, but not sure if its in this Civ; a unit from fort attacks any enemy unit that moves from one adjacent square to another adjacent square, with respect to Fort)
Free Withdrawl Promotion while in Fort attacking adjacent squares (maybe only for Ranged units)
Ability to build in forests/jungles without removing the forests/jungles
Acts like an Outpost as well (I have yet to see anything in Civ4 like the Outposts in Civ3, but maybe I'm blind; collects resource out of borders)
Unit promotion City Defense is applied while defending in Fort (could already be, not sure)
Some production or trade bonus
Possibility of spawning basic unit (maybe trigger if cottages or other improvements nearby are pillaged)

Anything to make forts better, they just seem so useless currently, and they should be fun.

Maybe do different grades of Forts using the Cottage system of growth (possibly requiring certain resources for better Forts), like:

Woodfort
requires iron or copper or clay (something to bond wood)
+25% def bonus
some of the lesser bonuses listed above

Stonefort
requires stone
+50% def bonus
some of the better bonuses listed above or in better amounts

Castle
requires stone and copper(or iron or mithril)
+75% def bonus
some of the best bonuses listed above or in even better amounts

That would make them not only useful, but also fun investments to be protected and worked on/towards.

 

[loki1232]

We've considered much in the way of fortifications and castles, but haven't done anything yet because it's hard to program the Ai correctly. I like your ideas though...

 

[Sureshot]

I've checked ingame on some of the things I wasn't sure about, and fortresses don't have any of the neat things it had in previous Civs, only +25% def bonus, nothing else, no benefits of any kind are stated in the Civilopedia (in Civ 3 I think they also ended an enemies turn in they entered it, basically making it a high movement penalty square to enemies as well).

The AI is quite smart about its usage of the current Forts (they intelligently don't bother making them ), I can see how some of the ideas would definately require some AI changes (worrying about adjacency moves and the like). Still it'd be nice to build useful forts.

 

[Kael]

I've checked ingame on some of the things I wasn't sure about, and fortresses don't have any of the neat things it had in previous Civs, only +25% def bonus, nothing else, no benefits of any kind are stated in the Civilopedia (in Civ 3 I think they also ended an enemies turn in they entered it, basically making it a high movement penalty square to enemies as well).

The AI is quite smart about its usage of the current Forts (they intelligently don't bother making them ), I can see how some of the ideas would definately require some AI changes (worrying about adjacency moves and the like). Still it'd be nice to build useful forts.

Yeah, I would love to have a more full fortification system. Sentry towers, gates, walls and an Ai they built them intellegently. But the AI doesn't use forts, and if we increase their value then we give human players an advantage over the AI.

 

[Sureshot]

Problem: Forts not being built.
What about treating it like a resource gathering building (quarry, plantations, mine, etc.) but for a non-resource (read: no resource there)?
Workers will build them outside of towns (at this point also within city tiles. which is unintelligent but a start) within borders on any tile lacking a resource.

Problem: Forts not being built in intelligent places.
What about either directly excluding city tiles (read: any tile that can be used for food/shields/trade) or make the AI's importance to build Forts less than the AI's importance to build any other tile improvement within City tiles?
In either case Forts won't be built in tiles used by the City (in the second option they'll build them in some places but intelligently, like Desert squares which have no food/shields/trade). This would create Forts everywhere within Civ Borders that wouldn't be better off with some other improvement instead.

Problem: Forts not being occupied.
What about treating Forts like a resource (as far as the AI is concerned; once built)?
This would encourage the AI to place troops on them.


These considerations, with a Civ 3 throwback (forts remove all movement points of enemies who enter it), would make an effective Wall surrounding their borders which would slow down any enemies trying to rush through, and encourage border guarding (since forts would be in the outer edges of the borders and have a value for troops to guard), without taking up tiles that could benefit a city.

Thats a pretty crude version of what could be done, its wasteful and although it would have no drastic negative effects other than wasted worker time, it would place some forts in tiles that arent likely to ever have an attack (like a coastal tile where all the tiles surrounding it are also within the cultural borders).
An added intelligent requirement on this could be that forts are only built on tiles that are within the civs territory with a land square adjacent that isn't within the civs territory (and so only protecting places where an enemy could conceivable walk in from outside).
Another intelligent placement could be hills within the civs territory that isn't a city tile.
Maybe make it unlikely to build them, or place their importance low to slow down fort building if its rampant, or make it more likely for Defender trait leaders.

All that together should make a fairly intelligent use of forts, if you throw in several of the other ideas from my previous post (personally I love the cottage type upgrading, makes them investments) it'd be fair to the AI players and a nice and useful addition.

 

[woodelf]

Aren't there any mod comps out there that deal with forts and trying to make them better? V. Soma was working on something a while back...let me check.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

Just an idea i had while not doing anything:

Arcane Road:

Roads that are actually shorter if you walk on them properly through arcane means.

"...with that said, we'll be taking the Mage's Path to Enaillellion today. For those who've never used it before, be careful not to step off the road or loose the runes that our company Adept is passing out to you.
If you do you may never catch up to us. And you'll catch hell from me if you do." - Hamallandel, Amurite Commander.

Replaces Vanilla Railroads
Looks like a normal road, but a little bit different. Darker, streighter, narrower, glittering if possible.

Randomly created by map script to exist on fresh world as ruins of the Age of Magic. Near those anchient temples and watchtowers preferably.

Initially provides the normal 2x movment of roads,
But once you understand the magic of it with Alteration it provides 4x (5x?) movement

Buildable with Strength of Will & Mithril Working & enchantment mana & takes a long time to build.
Some additional limit to them so they cannot be spammed would be good as well.

 

[Sureshot]

It'd be neat if Dwarven mines acted like tunnels to other Dwarven mines in adjacent tiles, specifically for the purpose of allowing movement for all units from a hill tile to a peak tile.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

ive put this in resources but i thought i might put this in improvements also.

i wondered if certain things may get multiple improvement types like change wheat to grain then allow it to have farms or wineries on it so you can get either
a. wheat or
b. beer from the source

also change banasas to plain fruit and allow it to get both
fruit and wine promotions.
this may not possible but i think tis realstic to have multiple things being able to be built on one resource

 

[Sureshot]

City Ruins are technically an improvement, so I'll mention this here.

After a few turns city ruins could spawn bandits, and then after a longer period they could become haunted ruins and spawn undeads, units entering the tile could become diseased. Some barbarian units could try protecting/hiding in ruins.

Instead of making ruins pillageable (as they are now.. you pillage them and theyre gone), you could make it necessary to "cleanse" them to remove them.


Tribal Villages are also considered improvements (in the world builder), and I was wondering if there could be some way of spawning new ones, or of really old ones forming into cities if left alone.
On that note I always liked the idea of barbarian cities (or collections of connected barb cities) possibly becoming full fledged civilizations if built up enough (turning into Clan of Embers). It'd be neat if you wiped out the Clan of Embers only to find them resurfacing from some barb cities later in the game, or playing a game without them at all and then having the new threat materialize.
And also the converse, like if a civ loses its capital while on strike and is generally unhappy then they revert to barbarian cities, and if cities shrink (like because of cult of the dragon removing all culture) they become tribal villages.

Added:
I'd like to mention forts again because I miss them being useful. I've been thinking about the arguement of "the AI doesn't know how to use them" and I realized that happens regardless: Instead of forts I just use bloom on hills as my "forts." The AI doesn't know how to do this either, but its possible.

Forts are in the game, but they are so uselesss... I just wish they had +100% def or something (like City def promotions adding to fort def % as well) to make them worthwile (atm you put an archer on a hill/forest with the second forest defense promotion and you get +25% from hill +50% from forest +100% (woodsman 2) which is nearly 4 times better than a hillfort (+25% from fort +25% from hill with no promotions that are gonna help except hills ones.. but the hill forests get that possibility too).

If it's just me who thinks so it'd be nice to figure out a way to just improve them myself, I miss good forts!

 

[TheCowSaysMoooo]

I was thinking about goody huts and ruins a bit as well. I like your idea of ruins occasionally turning "haunted" or being a haven for brigands (though it sounds like it may be similar to the monster resources specced in Shadow).

I had been thinking about instead of having ruins just pillaged (like a normal improvement) or picked up (like a normal goody hut), making them require an "explore" worker-type ability, perhaps for raiders or recon units and have it turn up a chance for goodyhut-esque rewards. Alternately, a new improvement called "dungeon" could be created for wilderness-type areas with this sort of effect.

I'd also like to see a wider variety of goody hut risks/rewards. Maybe teaching the unit a spell or ability, casting a ritual spell on the unit (good or bad - increase/decrease iPower/Movement, add promotions, etc), updating the "You gain a warrior/scout" to scale a bit depending on the age you're in, updating the barbarian pops to scale depending on the age you're in, (eventually) dropping hints of some long-lost artifact, telling of some distant civilization (like the MAP result, but instead of revealing nearby areas, revealing a small plot of the distant civ's lands), etc.

Anyway, just some recent brainstorming... =)

 

[Maniac]

Fort

For starters you could just make forts buildable over forests and jungle in Civ4BuildInfos.xml.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Maybe forts could be upgradeable a couple different ways, only one way per fort. They'd all retain the original +25% defense, and I think making city garrison (and raider) work with them is a good idea, the same bonus or perhaps half as much. Also, I don't know hos it is now, but forts should not be able to be built w/in 3 (or so) spaces of each other.
Fort upgrades:
Castle: +75% defense
inn: +x% heal, +1 commerce if worked, and/or +1 trade route in nearest city
Sentry Tower: Same as existing improvement
Trade post: +1 culture/turn (centered on the fort.) Would have to be availible a bit late or take a long time to build to prevent city blocking early.
Dungeon: umm, don't know, just sounded cool, maybe sac slaves here for some effect...