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Design: Religions

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Kael, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    3,531
    Location:
    (Bris)Vegas!
    I liked a previous post idea that suggested lots of different religion possibilities but only certain ones get founded based on who gets the relevant technology first.
     
  2. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    663
    Location:
    Heavensent
    I wouldnt mind the OO getting a minor name change... but thats not a big deal
     
  3. Maniac

    Maniac Apolyton Sage

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,588
    Location:
    Gent, Belgium
    Idea: how about a mana node being created on the city tile, if a city with one of the six religious shrines is razed? In addition a Great Propher could be given for free.
    For the Grigori and Khazad it could be slightly different. For the Grigori mana and an adventurer. For the Khazad a great prophet and a great commander.

    It would be nice if a One Religion strategy was possible without necessarily cutting yourself in the flesh.
     
  4. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Yeah, I think that going with one religion should be the default option, with multiple religion strategies being either worthless or attached to strong penalties.
     
  5. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    663
    Location:
    Heavensent
    I agree very strongly. VERY strongly.

    Although as I said the other time it came up, I dont think a mana node appearing because a city got burned would fit at all..
     
  6. QES

    QES Court Jester

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    2,139
    Location:
    Minnesota USA
    Eh, Instead of making "Multiple religion" strategies worthless, why not give a boon to "1 religion" strategies.

    Because i dont want civilizations who "dont care" about religion to be penalized if their populations are very eclectic, you know? And temples get built usually automatically if the religion is available. So what about those who just dont care? And wave their hands arround accordingly.
    -Qes
     
  7. Maniac

    Maniac Apolyton Sage

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,588
    Location:
    Gent, Belgium
    What else should be done then? In any case, the Tower of Mastery victory condition should be possible without a multiple religion strategy, so IMO there should be compensation for the lost mana. Or if the Tower of Mastery is in fact considered a multiple religion victory, then the religious victory should get a more realistic goal than 80%.

    That's what I am proposing by giving a bonus when razing a shrine.

    Anyway, here are the events. Now please excuse me while I continue crusading as the Bannor. :D

    Code:
    	def onCityRazed(self, argsList):
    		'City Razed'
    		city, iPlayer = argsList
    		
    		owner = PyPlayer(city.getOwner())
    		razor = PyPlayer(iPlayer)
    
    		pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
    
    		if city.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_CODE_OF_JUNIL')):
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD') and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Code of Junil goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Order.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Code of Junil goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Order.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_COMMANDER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Code of Junil goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Order.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ADVENTURER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    
    		if city.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_TABLETS_OF_BAMBUR')):
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD') and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Tablets of Bambur have been broken forever.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Runes.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Tablets of Bambur have been broken forever.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Runes.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ADVENTURER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    
    		if city.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_SONG_OF_AUTUMN')):
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD') and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Song of Autumn will never be heard again.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Fellowship.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Song of Autumn will never be heard again.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Fellowship.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_COMMANDER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The Song of Autumn will never be heard again.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Fellowship.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ADVENTURER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    
    		if city.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_WYRMHOLD')):
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD') and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The hated Wyrmhold goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Dragon.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The hated Wyrmhold goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Dragon.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_COMMANDER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The hated Wyrmhold goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Dragon.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ADVENTURER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    
    		if city.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_THE_NECRONOMICON')):
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD') and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The hated Necronomicon goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Necronomicon.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The hated Necronomicon goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Necronomicon.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_COMMANDER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The hated Necronomicon goes up in flames.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Necronomicon.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ADVENTURER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    
    		if city.isHasRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_STIGMATA_ON_THE_UNBORN')):
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD') and pPlayer.getCivilizationType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The unborn have been saved.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Ashen.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_KHAZAD')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The unborn have been saved.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Ashen.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PROPHET'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_COMMANDER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    			if (pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_GRIGORI')):
    				CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,'The unborn have been saved.','AS2D_CITYRAZE',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Religions/Ashen.dds',ColorTypes(8),city.getX(),city.getY(),True,True)
    				newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_ADVENTURER'), city.getX(), city.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
    				city.plot().setBonusType(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BONUS_MANA'))
     
  8. Frozen-Vomit

    Frozen-Vomit Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    534
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    This looks great...
     
  9. Halancar

    Halancar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    170
    If I understand the new civic changes right, it becomes more difficult to run a multiple religion empire. At least, as far as happycap is concerned :

    1) Free religion is gone
    2) God King gives -1 happy per non state religion

    So is there any civic left that gives happiness for having a religion without giving -1 per non state religion ? Offhand, I don't see any.

    So a one religion empire has a happycap advantage already. And a little more choice in "good" civics. Now if you pushed it a little farther, by for exemple giving theocracy +3 happy for state religion and -3 per non state religion, a single religion empire becomes a real possibility.
     
  10. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    3,771
    i wonder if theres a way to make it so you can't research other religions if you have a state religion.

    so, you could potentially still found all the religions, but only if you didnt have one adopted when you tried (so founding them would require many revolts and much time without a religion adopted, so pretty much not worth doing)
     
  11. AlazkanAssassin

    AlazkanAssassin Engineer

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,310
    Location:
    Maryland
    That would eliminate the AI from ever founding later religions, unless they were phisically separated from where the first three are founded. I don't think the AI whould understand that dropping a state religion that they have in their citys is a good thing.
    I think its good that an AI that only has a religion that spread to it from another country can found its own religion and convert over to that.
     
  12. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    3,771
    hmm.. i was thinking more like if you have the state religion and had founded it (so you have the religion as your state religion and have its holy city)
     
  13. jimi12

    jimi12 Half Jedi

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    WA State
    This info should be put in the wiki
     
  14. Morganknight

    Morganknight Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Why not make the Holy City Wonders capturable like the Dragon's Hoard? Except for the Wyrmhold (I think), all of the Holy City Wonders appear to be texts of some sort, and readilly transportable: Tablets of Bambur, Song of Autumn, Code of Junil, The Necronomicon, The Stigmata on the Unborn...

    Make them capturable units like the Hoard and rebuildable in any city that the religion has spread to. Holy War anyone?
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,046
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Not a bad idea. I would assume that this would change the holly city. Perhaps this could also save a cities entire population from death if an enemy is trying to eradicate a faith. Now he could just kill (or conveniently lose, bu sending on a weak hidden nationality transport) the Holy unit and bring in the inquisition. (that would only make sense if it removed the holy city marker before making a new one. Otherwise you would need to move the holy city to a tiny, undefended city that is about to be destroyed by a Scorched-Earth civilization)
     
  16. BCalchet

    BCalchet Human, all too human.

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Location:
    Umeå, Sweden
    An idea for an alternate religion system, making it more expandable:

    Techs changed as follows:
    Holy Vows:
    First to research gains a free Great Prophet*.
    Enables all good-aligned religions.
    Replaces Ways of the Wise, retaining all other effects from it.

    Philosophy
    First to research gains a free Great Prophet*.
    Enables all good-aligned religions.
    Otherwise unchanged.

    Ways of the Wicked
    First to research gains a free Great Prophet*.
    Enables all evil-aligned religions.
    Otherwise unchanged.

    * maximum of one free Great Prophet per player - if one player is first to two of these, the second player to reach the second one gets the prophet instead.


    Religions are founded by prophets, requiring the correct techs:

    Holy Vows + Mining: Enables "Found Runes" for Great Prophet and Great Engineer.
    Holy Vows + Code of Laws: Enables "Found Order" for Great Prophet and Great Commander.
    Philosophy + Hunting: Enables "Found Leaves" for Great Prophet and Great Bard.
    Philosophy + Mysticism + Kuriotate/Sheaim: Enables "Found Dragon Cult" for Great Prophet.
    Ways of the Wicked + Fishing: Enables "Found Overlords" for Great Prophet and Great Merchant.
    Ways of the Wicked + Knowledge of the Ether: Enables "Found Veil" for Great Prophet and Great Sage.
    (Holy Vows + Divination: Enables "Found Light of Lugus" for Great Prophet, and so on as new religions are implemented.)


    Each religion usually has two specific techs - the first one enables temples, unique unit 1 and priests (with priesthood), the second enables the wonder, unique unit 2 and the hero. (...and summons Hyborem...)

    If the Veil is unfounded at Armageddon Counter 66, Dis enters the world in a free space, bringing the Veil and Hyborem - he's not missing Armageddon just because nobody invited him!

    Once a number of religions depending on map size are in the game, each additional one costs +1 prophet: 2 prophets for the first religion over the cap, 3 for the second, and so on - this stops everyone from getting a religion of their own unless they use large amounts of GP points.

    That's it.
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,046
    Location:
    Kael's head
    I'm undecided about your proposal for founding religions. I'm not a fan of the name Holy Vows.

    I like the AC @ 66 idea. Just wondering, but what happen now if the AC gets high enough to cause demon-spawning hellfire and Hyborem isn't there? Are they barbs like they would be regardless in .16?

    I believe Kael said that he is considering alowing more religions, but not more than 7 in one game, and that the religions with the same alignments would be founded by the same tech.

    I think it would be far more interesting if you couldn't have 7 at a time, but could completly wipe one out in order to replace it with something different. If you don't think you can defeat a Esus-worshipping civ directly, wipe out the Runes so you can get Lugus to help detecting their invisible disciples, ect. Perhaps when quests are introduced they can make destroying entire faiths a little easier.
    Imo, some techs should allow more than one religion based on a players choice, some on alignment, some on other known techs, and some randomly, while still other techs wouldbe tied to only one religion. Sorcey might lead to an evil, Ceridwen worshiping religion or a good Nantosuelta one. Message from the Deep could found the Overlords or could be the discovery of a few survivors of Danalin's sea people, signaling his return into the world of the waking. Perhaps one religion seeks to elevate Brigit (or what ever Bhall's second in command was caled) to Bhall's old position. Perhaps the greedy dwarves can fall to into Mammon's control at the founding of currency, creating a very evil religion that is better than Runes Financially. Some religions don't need to be tied to Angels at all.


    Religions whose gods hate each other should have much bigger diplomatic penalties than those whose gods are allies. The Order should really hate the Veil, the Light of Lugus shouldn't really mind the Order, and The Veil might even like the followers of Mammon.
     
  18. kenken244

    kenken244 Grammar Nazi

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Messages:
    980
    Location:
    Grammar Nazi Conclave
    i dontl iek the idea of 21 religions because all that is is adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff. it woudl be nearly impossible to have 21 religions all with a distinct theme, balence them all, and create meaningfull units and stuff without just having one or 2 unique things for each and pretty much ruining the improtance of religion.
     
  19. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,046
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Kael has already said that there will not be 21 religions. That doesn't mean we couldn't have 10 or 12. If some of these are Cults, like CotD, and they use the new mana spheres they could easily be unique.
     
  20. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    3,771
    it definately shouldnt be difficult to come up with themese for them all, since they all already exist.

    personally im hoping for a Fire religion while Fire is out, with a cool fiery succubus unit or two
     

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