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Design: Religions

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Kael, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. Shadius

    Shadius Chieftain

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    Doesn't the Veil already worship Bahl alongsides Agares, though?
     
  2. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    dunno, thought it was more about Agares (both veil and order use fire, but i dont think either worships such), and its entropy magic that the AV holy city wonder gives.
     
  3. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    Yeah, the Veil is more about the entropy aspect of Hell as I understand it. Fire's there, it's just not the main focus.
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I think that, after her fall, Bhall practically started worshiping Agares. She does share a heaven with him. It would make sense that her devout followers would follow the Veil. However, many of her lesser angels, including the strongest of them, remained good. Perhaps the good angels remain in what was once her heaven, and if Brigit could be freed then she could ascend there to lead a good fire-based religion. Since fire spells are already available to 2 religions, and would make sense in a Lugus religion too, this would not be one of the better faiths to add to the experience of gameplay.
     
  5. the_fish

    the_fish Chieftain

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    (apologies for bump, but it seemed the best place to post this)

    I had this idea about another religion to introduce in the 'Shadow' phase IF another is needed - it's not the fine tuning or details that are important, more the general concepts. If you like any of the ideas here, feel free to use them :)

    Spoiler :

    (name of religion something to do with balance or day/night cycles)

    new tech: Way of Balance

    The Three Angels: Lugus (sun), Dagda (balance/force), Esus (shadow)

    Although one religion, it takes slightly different facets depending on your alignment, each with its own hero and units. This is a way of having another three religions in the game for flavour reasons while only increasing the number of actual religions by one.
    Based on the spheres and themes involved, I think it's primarily matched to the Malakim, Sidar, and Svartalfar.

    I envisage this being an early religion, arising from primitive day/night cycle superstitions, and observation of opposites/contrast. The religion as a whole would try and maintain the balance of the world: but alignment would determine how this is carried out. Followers could shelter and aid the weaker civs, and would be more likely to defend them in wars (although not suicidally - diplo bonus based on score?).
    Likewise, they wouldn't care too much if another civ is following another religion, so a reduced diplo penalty here.

    The neutral civs adopting this would especially emphasize the balance between all things, but would accept the contrasts of day/night, birth/death, good/evil etc.. As such, they would become fairly pacifist and less likely to engage in wars except when directly threatened.
    A neutral hero could be some sort of wandering monk that could move through other lands without open borders/war, preferably with the ability to heal others as well as versed in combat.

    The good civs would view the equilibrium in terms of the light side (Sun). They would be more proactive and overt in restoring balance, so would be more likely to join wars on the side of the underdogs and prevent the destruction of the world by the Infernals. The good hero could be a monk with high visibility and the ability to cast Sun Divine spells (from early in the game).

    The evil civs would view the equilibrium in terms of Shadow. Balance would be restored in a subtle, underhand way with sabotage and deception, assassins and spies (and hidden nationality units). The evil path should be less about direct confrontation, and if wars need to be fought it might be best to bribe another civ to do your dirty work for you. The evil hero could be a monk with a command of the shadow sphere and be invisible to most units.

    As I don't think alignment can change (yet) outside of religion, this shouldnt cause any problems with alignment specific units. For simplicity, perhaps there could be one lowest level disciple unit that upgrades into one of three second tier units depending on alignment.



    Felt I'd share :)
     
  6. Tiranasta

    Tiranasta Chieftain

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    Am I the only one that feels that the ice phase should bring about a new religion involving the worship of Mulcarn?

    EDIT: And that the Illians should be forced to select that religion (Auric Ulvin is Mulcarn reborn as a man, isn't he?).
     
  7. icantcmyeye

    icantcmyeye Peace Through Power

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    Nevermind, further searching answered my question
     
  8. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    What supprised me most was the Mercurians-Amathalon-Cretion one since Basium was the second in command for Arawn. I know that your Elohim-Sirona-Spirit one is right, not sure about the the Kuriotates.
     
  9. icantcmyeye

    icantcmyeye Peace Through Power

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    yah, i was wrong

    Mercurians worship sucellus, and Life mana

    Kuriotates worship Amathalon, and Creation mana.
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Originally Mercurians should worship Arawn, but still with life (he was Angel over Life and Death until the rebirth Sucelli)
     
  11. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

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    Yeah, its not quite as simple as that. We have a big design grid that shows the archangel, god, sphere, civ, totem animal, interesting backgrounds, etc for each of the 21 aspects. And yes, the Mercurians are in Life. But Basium split from Arawn at the end of the Age of Dragons, when Arawn ruled over both the life and death spheres. Basium has little respect for Sucellus (who he considers weak for his loss to Mulcarn and completly undeserving of Arawn's gift of providence over Life, which Basium wanted to help him with his war against the Infernals).

    Basium himself isn't religious. He only wants to kill demons. But he is flexible enough to adopt a state religion (or just about anything else) if it helps him in his war.

    So even though we do have a relationship between every civ and a sphere, and a god. That relationship isn't always direct your typical patron god/faithful followers kind of relationship.
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    His Civilopedia entry made him sound quite religious-just devoted The One rather than to any of his fellow Angels. In that regard, I guess, he could be seen as similar to Cassiel (it is also probably a big part of why he is considered good, despite the lengths to which his fanaticism take him), although his idea of how to serve the one is diametrically opposed to Cassiel's.
     
  13. hossam

    hossam Chieftain

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    i have an idead . how about religin based promotions? i.e the necrmancer promotion for the veil, this gives all units with this promotion the ability to cast contagion and convert a percentage of defeated units into zombies. for the oo it could be the command but a little nerfed i guess.i still havent tought of the other religions though.
     
  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Religion-specific promotions are a must (and will be easy to implement in BtS, since the religion requirement was added for the Gods of Old mod). I can see there being several unique promotions per religion, but I'm not a huge fan of your specific proposals.

    I don't see what command has to do with OO, or why necromancy should duplicate the effect of the Death II Sorcery spell (especially as it seems like a promotion that would best fit arcane units). I do like the idea of a necromancer promotion though, and the random revival of defeated units. It would also be nice if AV promos could give units extra bonuses on defied/hell terrain. Additional bonuses for their summons would be nice too.

    I can't really think of much for the OO, but it should probably enhance ships somehow. I was thinking that letting OO ships get fear would be nice, then I remembered that ships are not living units, so this ability would be useless against your enemies navies. I guess they could always go with something more mundane like extra movement, withdrawal, or cargo capacity.

    A nice Order promotion would be one that removes the religious attributes from defeated units (so they won't serve Hyborem in the afterlife) and removes religions from conquered cities. Allowing them access to the Blessed promotion could also work, but it would be kind of a waste since it it gotten so easily by spells and altars.

    The leaves could grant access to promotions that have a chance to spread forests, a weakened version of subdue animal available to more unit classes, and a promotion that makes Treants likely to appear to defend a unit if attacked in the forests. The Woodsman III promotion could also be made FoL dependent.

    Runes could get promotions that give units the ability to move through impassible terrain (peaks) or give extra defensive bonuses on tiles with mines or quarries. I also see siege units getting some sort of RoK specific boost, and the Guerrilla III promotion being made RoK specific.

    The Empyrean (Lugus based) religion's promotions could offer bonuses against Vampires, increase a units line of sight, let units detect invisible, and maybe even remove the Hidden Nationality promotion from rival units.

    The Council of Esus could grant access to the Hidden Nationality and even Invisible promotions (preferably with fairly high prerequisite promotions, to prevent abuse). Promotions that increase withdrawal chances and give additional first strike would also be good.

    Difficult to attain religious-specific promotions which grant affinity to a mana type related to the religion (and possibly negative affinity to its opposing mana types) would also be nice.
     
  15. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Chieftain

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    Ah, I can see why'd you say that--carving the names of the one into his flesh. I see that more as using whatever works against the demons he is single-mindedly pursuing.
    In a spiritual world, words may be seen to have physical effects, and being an angel Basium knows what the demons, rebels in every way, will be most effected by.
     
  16. BeefontheBone

    BeefontheBone Windbag of the sea

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    Using the existing religious promos which mark followers as prerequisites would be a nicer way to do it (though you might still want the state religion requirement in some or all cases) without needing that addition, and mean that the unit's personal religion was the determinant.
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The existing religious promotions have been removed in the BtS Beta, so that probably wouldn't work. The promotions have been replaced by a religious attribute. If possible, requiring both the state religion and the attribute mught be nice.
     
  18. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

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    I wonder what Kael and co. have in store for the units who get a religion designation promotion...
     
  19. Victorvanwavere

    Victorvanwavere Chieftain

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    I noticed that when I switched to Fellowship of Leaves, I got a bunch of Ancient Forests after a while. Is that a function of Fellowship of Leaves or just time? (The Civlopedia did not mention this.)

    If it is a function of Fellowship of Leaves, what effect does the other religions have?
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    it is an effect of FoL...

    RoK (runes of kilmorph) can allow you to have +1 in mines with the good civic...

    each religion has its own stuff... and they are balanced but not equal.

    most have 2 heroes but not same levels,
    ...Etc
     

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