Design: Religions

[QES]

If desert movement type stuff is to be introduces, a custom map script will certainly be required to form vast expanses of desert that would creat the desired effects without creating too much desert in general.

re malakim: what about a little concept thievery from dune? they can have desert only improvements similar to towns that go from something like a camp to a shelter to a sietch giving 1f,1h, 1-3c (maybe 2f for sietch). with this they could actually have a thriving city that had mostly desert (or even all) desert tiles. and maybe a 'holy' warrior that can haste and/or dance of blades.

WHile good in theory, it would create very crowded deserts. And the "vast wastelands" nature of the desert would be lost. Desert peoples dont change the desert, they use its natural affects to their advantage in creative (possibly magical) ways.

I agree about deserts needing to be vast - there's a whole thread on Map issues. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178192
-Qes

 

[evanb]

Reading all this Malakim discussion reminds me of Paul Atreides leading the Fremen...

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

I tend to be the same way, devoting most of my civ to a single "style" and maxing it. I like 10 options, but i oft, also only chose one or 2. If i'm forced to switch, i do so begrudingly.

And I'll only hunt you in so far as you'll be tasty after a good cooking. You're a cook-what would you eat you with?
-Qes

I am already well seasoned so probrabley in a Brandy Mustard Sauce topped with a touch of rosemary with a hint of thyme waterbrushed on before cooking served with a full vegetable only salad and a fine red wine.

 

[QES]

I am already well seasoned so probrabley in a Brandy Mustard Sauce topped with a touch of rosemary with a hint of thyme waterbrushed on before cooking served with a full vegetable only salad and a fine red wine.

No chestnuts? Seems like it needs something a little nutty, or perhaps a cheese?
-Qes

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

No chestnuts? Seems like it needs something a little nutty, or perhaps a cheese?
-Qes

Nah, I'm nutty and cheesey enough....but I don't drink yet I still love rum-cake. Parmasaen but not dirrectly on before serving if you must.....cheese to please each plate seperatley so everyones needs are fulfilled to their own specifications.
No desert? I don't know I thought maybe finishing up a new religion on this forum may give everyone their just deserts......... ....may the sun ever shining bright burn desert tiles into all your lands...hahaha! The sun and the rest of the seasons themselves as seperate entities of the gods that control them are very angry with winter.......and its greedy god.....Spring is getting alot of elbow room and Summer is getting jellous....Fall throws its hands in the air and says"Well at least my name is in the title of the mod."
Another religion similiar in function of dragging the others down like Cult of the Dragon is probrablily best like I beliebe Chalid said.
'

 

[QES]

This religion idea is supposed to be a bit "off" kilter. Much like the cult of the Dragon, it's intended to play against the other 5 religions as "a whole" instead of being particularly independant. STill, unlike the Cultists, this religion has a purpose, an end, and themes much like the other relgions.

Kinship of the Lost is a group of asetic monks (no particular God) who cultivate a sense of nothingness and try to acend. (Yes..its buddhism, but with a twist).

The Kinship of the Lost, spreads when war occurs. If a city is captured, there is an X% chance that it will gain followers of the lost. In this, the Lost spread through acknowledgement of woe and hard ache. Cities with unhappy people also have a Y% chance. These chances are only available if connected to the trade network of the founding civ.

The Kinship of the Lost, can make disciples, but have no other passive form of spreading. The Kinship have unique buildings and units that spread its word.
The Kinship's Goal is to acsend. They accomplish this by teching out. A tech victory. Because, once they accend, who cares? They accend not to the realm of gods, but to their own personalized, (and created) realm. They make their own heaven.

Some Building Ideas:
KINSHIP OF LOST FOUNDING CITY: +4 Happy, +2 Culture, +2 Food (Reproduction) {Concept: Tragedy}

Temple of the Lost - Templish features (Concept: Astestism)
Garden of Kinship - +2 Healthy (Concept: Be in Balance for the World to come)

The Obligitory Wonder that Ends the Game in a Victory (Kinda like the Master Tower, but only ONE religion can build it.) Not sure how to prevent people from being something else, then switching to it to win. It should be something sought after for a long time. Maybe the wonder can be built with the same technology as the one that discovers it.....but its VERY expensive....as in the most expensive in the game, but doesnt require ANYTHING else. And you must be Kinship to build it, if you switch, its production is lost.


Some Unit Ideas:
Kinship Monk - Attack Unit that also can bring the religion to other cities. If Monk defeats an opponent, it has a % chance to create another Monk. {Concept: Disciple type unit but martial}

Martyr - Invisable Unit, Can go into cities of other Civs, and Purge religions. Also may found a religion. {Concept: Missle-type ground unit designed for damaging or disrupting enemy cities, tragic}

Dalbudma - National Unit (Limit 3): Cannot be attacked except by Invisable units. {Concept: Serenely wise and untouchable}


Some Civic Ideas:

Cultureal Values: Ascetisism - +50% War Weariness
- -50% Military Production
- +3 Specialists in All cities with Ascetisism
- +2 Happy In All cities with Ascetisism
- +1 Food from Farms, +2 From Monestaries


Some Improvement Ideas:

Monestary (Replaces Winery) +2 Hammers, +2 Food

This Religion would be best suited for Tech Turtles, and people who want to avoid conflict. It also works great as a thorne in the side of the other religions, "snubing" them, without actually being agnostic. Plus it offers a different route to the completion of the game. And Civs will have to keep an Eye on Kinship of the Lost Civs, lest they build their accention wonder.

Maybe the space ship ending could be changed to fit this. Just a "List" of national wonders needed to be built. Ascention of the Body, Ascention of the Mind, Ascention of the Soul, Ascention of the Lost. Each having a tech requirement, but the lost not requiring anything but the other 3.

What about something like this?
-Qes

P.S. I will never question your ability to PUN ever again.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

Ouch....ooo eee ouch.....help....I dunno let someone recapture and raize that city on another one of your recaptures well at least something can compete with Cult for making life a pain for most civs.....but who could build it without a problem.........I also crave a desert power in addition to sand lions that make deserts good for some and really bad for others.........because if you have ever had any experience in the desert then you know why.

 

[QES]

Ouch....ooo eee ouch.....help....I dunno let someone recapture and raize that city on another one of your recaptures well at least something can compete with Cult for making life a pain for most civs.....but who could build it without a problem.........I also crave a desert power in addition to sand lions that make deserts good for some and really bad for others.........because if you have ever had any experience in the desert then you know why.

I've been in a desert, its not "good" For anyone, but there are defeinately those who've adapted to living in those harsh coniditions. This isnt to say they coax more production and income out of it, it means they surive what often others could/would not.

And the relgiion as i see it is supposed to be a pain in the neck, it can still grow through intentional (diciple) means, the only "natural" method of it growing is through the unhappiness and war-torn situations throughout the world.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I like the idea of the Malakim being able to build something in deserts, but I think that these "somethings" shouldn't ever give food. I think that one , one as a base yield for the Malakim, and the ability to build some improvements on deserts would be plenty.

 

[QES]

I like the idea of the Malakim being able to build something in deserts, but I think that these "somethings" shouldn't ever give food. I think that one , one as a base yield for the Malakim, and the ability to build some improvements on deserts would be plenty.

The issue with this is that then the deserts (for the malakim) would be generally very cluttered places. Every normal desert square would have a road and a "special" improvement. On the overall map, this would mean that there was no "halt" in growth, or in "improved" terrain. While the malakim are cool Desert peoples, the visual on the map still ought to show the desolation and utter "wastelands" that the deserts represent. Deserts are often boarders, but if they can be improved upon (im even a bit bitter about roads) then there's no real quality of them, other than being the next level down from plains. Grassland is 2 food, plains a food and a hammer, desert a hammer and a gold. All of which could be improved? Strikes me as unflavorful.

I DO want the Malakim to be more deserty.......much more deserty, and ideas to this end are much needed i think, So i love that this discusion is going on, but is there any way we can come up with that makes the malakim powerful, while on desert, while also not depriving the "desert" of its natural and harsh qaulities?

-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

You raise a valid point, and one that I've been struggling with myself. I guess the way I envision it, the desert improvements would, aesthetically, look very small, lonely, and somewhat shabby, even. The gameplay yields would have to be fairly decent to give reason for the Malakim to not just spring all of their deserts like everyone else, but it's really no worse than the Lanun being able to run an extra specialist/laborer for every two water tiles they can work.

I'm fully willing to accept any other ways for the Malakim to be integrated with deserts and still be functional otherwise, but it's a tough problem to deal with. Maybe a desert resource could be included as well.

 

[xumio]

just some things of the top of my head:

-camel ... strategic resource, required for camel units, malakim only. so their allies might get them via trade. (ok, stolen form the lanun, but a unique strategic resource would be fun, and i think it has flavor ... no one except a desert people would spend enough time with camels to domesticate them)
-deserts have negative healing. (maybe less when they have fresh water - so units heal, but slowly)
-deserts take "forever" to build roads (so they CAN participate in trade, but won't spam them everywhere.
-deserts cost every unit one turn to cross - regardless of a road (so even an upgraded hippus raider moves only one tile/turn). [might? be possible to accomplish this by automatically upgrading roads to rails in desert, but setting the movement to 1; if the graphic would be changed to some light footprints it wouldn't even be that ugly]
-camels and (some?) malakim units get a healing (and combat?) bonus on desert so they can survive there
-camels only need one movement point per desert tile
-camels replacing malakim cavalry line, allowing a hit and run tactic. (attack enemy, retreat to nearest city/oasis)

as for allowing them some way of settling in desert, but still be able to survive, they might be able to build something, that grants -3 food from non desert tiles, but giving every specialist +1 food. (representing an elite society, where there are more great people per population to feed, but with slow growth)
so a city in the desert could support 2 specialists, +3per oasis (and maybe +1 or +2 per camel). could also give the building itself some food bonus/free GP, to rise the base.
(ideally these would be cheap world wonders, 100 availiable, only buildable by malakim, so in case someone captures their cities, they won't become useless - unless this were desired)

this would net them some nice production/gold/beakers without cluttering the landscape, they would produce lots of GPP, but as they are not philosophical it may still be balanced, if not, the building might give -X%GPP

 

[QES]

just some things of the top of my head:

-camel ... strategic resource, required for camel units, malakim only. so their allies might get them via trade. (ok, stolen form the lanun, but a unique strategic resource would be fun, and i think it has flavor ... no one except a desert people would spend enough time with camels to domesticate them)
-deserts have negative healing. (maybe less when they have fresh water - so units heal, but slowly)
-deserts take "forever" to build roads (so they CAN participate in trade, but won't spam them everywhere.
-deserts cost every unit one turn to cross - regardless of a road (so even an upgraded hippus raider moves only one tile/turn). [might? be possible to accomplish this by automatically upgrading roads to rails in desert, but setting the movement to 1; if the graphic would be changed to some light footprints it wouldn't even be that ugly]
-camels and (some?) malakim units get a healing (and combat?) bonus on desert so they can survive there
-camels only need one movement point per desert tile
-camels replacing malakim cavalry line, allowing a hit and run tactic. (attack enemy, retreat to nearest city/oasis)

as for allowing them some way of settling in desert, but still be able to survive, they might be able to build something, that grants -3 food from non desert tiles, but giving every specialist +1 food. (representing an elite society, where there are more great people per population to feed, but with slow growth)
so a city in the desert could support 2 specialists, +3per oasis (and maybe +1 or +2 per camel). could also give the building itself some food bonus/free GP, to rise the base.
(ideally these would be cheap world wonders, 100 availiable, only buildable by malakim, so in case someone captures their cities, they won't become useless - unless this were desired)

this would net them some nice production/gold/beakers without cluttering the landscape, they would produce lots of GPP, but as they are not philosophical it may still be balanced, if not, the building might give -X%GPP

I particularly like some of these ideas, especially the negative healing (i think in an earlier thread someone said something similar).

Here Are some of my thoughts on the matter.

Spoiler :

The major problem we keep rehashing, is that we all know that for a civilization to be coherant and compeditive, it needs to produce, it needs to produce hammers, it needs to produce food (for more ability to produce) and it needs to produce gold for research and other costs. Deserts are, and should REMAIN the anti-thesis of production. Deserts as for the 'cool factor' remain mostly a barrier and a pain-in-the-neck for all other civs. In this, our goal should be to come up with some idea/mechanic in which our civ is compeditive NOT because its a producer but because it has adapted (and wont die) in conditions normally felt. I like the negative healing, because then there is an advantage in building in desert for the malakim becuase (if they are immune) they'll have very natural protection, and a majority of the units they do build will be able to cross into foriegn soil but not necessarily vice versa.

My ideas earlier were that desert would be considered an impassible terrain to settlers and workers, and a hostile environment (e.g. negative healing) to military units. Any civ we designate as "desert people" would get units that would be immune to these causal problems. As for "producing enough" my theory is that floodplains - something that are naturally found in deserts already, would be the main source of food, while any desert hills might still function as a primary source of hammers. Since opposing civs would not be allowed to put workers on deserert, the only road builders (and it should take forever like you said) would be the desert people. This would mean trade across deserts would be exclusively for the malakim, or other desert peoples.

I think that the Malakim's Production or "survival" would be dependant on trade. Could we not give them large bonuses to trade? And perhaps a unit that functioned like a small version of the great merchant? Since gold can be used for almost anything (even production if the right civic is applied) they'd be competetive. I dont know about giving deserts "interesting" or "useful" resources, becuase it would again, clutter the thing. The wastes should be a boundry from which the malakim ride into battle, and then retreat across. If some cities put themselves up against a desert, they'd have a hard time warding off enemy attacks, considering the damage they'd take from being in desert terrain.

In the end we dont simply want to "add" features to desert's making them useful, and therefore just another "type" of terrain. (The elves have forest, the dwarves hills, the malakim desert) It looses something if its merely the paper the rock or the scissors. ITs better if the tactics surrounding "desert" are wholey different than that of normal civ progression.
-Qes

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I like your writeup, QES, and I concur. I'll drop the one one idea.

Making the deserts impassable for non-military units might be too much of a disadvantage to other Civs, as might be making them have an infinite movement cost. Would it be possible to make it so that mounted units move at half (or maybe one-third) speed, with the exception of camels which can move normally? I'd also venture to say that making roads and such take a whole lot of time to build over deserts (except for Malakim workers) and/or roads in deserts spontaneously disappearing (except in Malakim lands) might be a more moderate way to implement this idea.

Also, if memory serves correctly, I believe that camel archers are already a tier 4 unit. This could either be changed, and/or the Malakim could have camel UUs replace their lower-tier mounted units.

Even with these changes, the Malakim are really only "linked" with the deserts in times of war. Sure, deserts are less of a hinderence to them, but we should find a way to make it perhaps even beneficial to be by some deserts for the Malakim. I haven't really thought up any particular ways to economically link the Malakim with deserts in a reliable, believable way yet, so I guess the suggestion box is still open. I do like the idea of linking them to specialists, though.

 

[Sureshot]

QES, really like your idea of desert attrition for non-malakim civs.

And about Camels, i've never made them, since in most cases, they just seem weird for the civ im playing to have, would be nice flavour for only Malakim to have em.

 

[Xuenay]

Negative healing was apparently a problem to get the AI to understand, if I recall correctly what was said earlier.

 

[Sureshot]

What about giving the desert tiles high movement cost and negative defense modifiers?
That way their pathing leads around deserts, and they try not to end their turns there since they always try to end their turns on high defense tiles. Also, its an added benefit to the Malakim - if an enemy is attacking their cities from a desert then they can attack them back with ease.

 

[Silverkiss]

Thats a nice solution, as in deserts there is no place to hide or prepare a good defense... And it is normally hard to travel in deserts...

 

[QES]

What about giving the desert tiles high movement cost and negative defense modifiers?
That way their pathing leads around deserts, and they try not to end their turns there since they always try to end their turns on high defense tiles. Also, its an added benefit to the Malakim - if an enemy is attacking their cities from a desert then they can attack them back with ease.

This is more a reply to everyone.

First off, thanks for the compliments, but dont let me get away with anything.

Thoughts:

Spoiler :

Secondly i really like the idea of negative strength modifiers to all non-desrt peoples units, this would represent the vulnerability of the desert, I also like the idea of high (or nigh-impassible) movement modifiers. But i still have a problem with being able to build (even slowly) roads on the desert. Maybe make it ok for settlers to cross, (and of course military units), but i still dont want non-desert people workers to be able to go on the desert, this is primarily because even if its INCREDIBLY slow, by the time you see any sort of real warfare, or real kingdoms duking it out, every last square that CAN be developed will be. Even if its just roads. Now, i know there are valueable resources in desert, not the least of which is insense, so i do want there to be a way for either A) non-desert peoples to access incense, becuase perhaps its also available in non-desert squares, or that having insense in a tile allows access to that tile, for movement.

I imagine A desert near a malakim civilization, its vast and expansive, and there lies but ONE road along it, stretching out onto the far side, where the rest of our FFH world lies. The malakim are threatened by some evil state, and they retreat back across the desert, stopping their trade envoys and caravans, and destroying the road on the way back.
(by the way you cannot destroy your own roads currently, is this on purpose? I was trying to avoid having a religion spread to my city by cutting of the trade, and it wouldnt let me destroy the road..anyway)
The malakim send their forces out into the desert, hordes of mercenaries, horse archers, and summoned units cross the desert destroying the unacustomed lushlanders as though they were not even there. The Mirage of the desert steeps dangerously as city dwellers look to the horizon and see a dark cloud coming over the rise......a dark cloud of dust, an army is approaching from the desert, and it is Malakim vengence that is upon them.

Anything to preserve the "natural barrier" motiff in which the malakim have some sort of exclusive "exception" to, is key. Getting the AI to understand this is also key, which is why i think that "peaks" are our general answer if we can learn how to simulate them in certain ways.

I think that the "answer" is somewhere here in our collective consiousness.
-Qes

 

[SchpailsMan]

Only allowing road-building on incense won't work. There'll always be tricky cases such as an incense-desert square surrounded by water, peaks and desert squares. I think disallowing road building in desert is fine except in your own borders, if only because desert or not this is still your territory and you should always be able to take whetever time it takes to make it somewhat viable. Only wild, untammed desert areas would be non-improveable until someone sets foot on its border and tames the land.

Appart from that, I totally backup the defensive malus and high movement cost ideas. I'm not sure there is much need for the Malakim the have much more of an incentive to settle near desert areas. I mean, look at north africa: the most settled areas are close to the desert because that's where there was some space left to settle in, but its not like people actually took much benefit from the desert itself. Only making the desert a "natural defensive border" is already a strategic bonus in itself, and so far I didn't mind settling near desert if there was good land nearby anyway so I don't see much point in making deserts more valuable. In fact, if desert areas become less viable to other civs, the Malakim might only get to desert because no-one else wants to anyway.