Design: Religions

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

Hmm, the ability to have sandstorms (like treants) show up in deserts when threatened after researching a certain tech or building an improvement could be very interesting, for the Malakim or for FfH as a whole. Maybe there could be a glass resource that only the Malakim could see?

Because windblown sand of a large sandstorm will eat cars away to the frame, skin,muscle and yes even bone.......it will get through the cracks and slits in armor and wittle it away if deserts get like this in future Civ games please somebody allow tunnel networks of some sort for something and by the way since we are on sand storms in a religion thread because of possible connections I find myself remember the DUNE series.........not only a building but a sandstorm spell in or next to any desert tile would be a good Idea and maybe the more desert tiles the better.......be afraid of the desert.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yeah, I've always disliked tiles that are absolutely useless to all Civs, regardless of other factors. That's why I think that the Khazad should get some bonus with mountains, the Malakim with deserts, and maybe some Civ should get a bonus from jungles (OMGWTFBBQ LIZARDMANZORZ??!!!1).

 

[Kael]

Yeah, I've always disliked tiles that are absolutely useless to all Civs, regardless of other factors. That's why I think that the Khazad should get some bonus with mountains, the Malakim with deserts, and maybe some Civ should get a bonus from jungles (OMGWTFBBQ LIZARDMANZORZ??!!!1).

But if all terrains are useful to some civ dont they all become the same? We end up in a situation where tundra for the illians is just like the deserts for the malakim which is just lihe the peaks for the khazad which is just like the jungles for the lizardmen (or whatever).

There needs to be better and worse of everything. Deserts and jungles do have some functions, even if it is just being the home to types of creatures and resources. But from a production standpoint, in order for something to be good, something has to be bad.

Im okay with creating some synergy with civs and particular terrain types. I just dont want to make that promotion bonuses. Which may be what you are saying anyway. We have the synergy between fire civs (malakim and the clan) and deserts with the sand lion spell. What else could be done?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I guess I'm just looking for a way to keep the world's deserts from being all converted to plains by the year 400, and the jungles being gone by the year 300. I'm surprised you disagree here, as the alternative is all of the Civs doing their best to cover their territory with grasslands, settling as far away from mountains as possible, and chopping down jungles ASAP. In short, you'll stifle diversity instead of promoting it. I'm not saying mountains for the Khazad should be the same as deserts for the Malakim, but it would be nice if each had some bonus (like high production for mountains and perhaps a couple of food or commerce from deserts). What sort of fantasy setting has all of the lands more or less the same?

 

[Corlindale]

The trouble is that deserts ARE rotten terrain for most purposes. Now matter how fire-attuned or accustomed to deserts a given civ is, it won't be able to conjure food and gold from dry sand.
However, there might be other bonuses coming with the terrain. Combat bonuses might be a nice idea, like the Dolviello has for tundra. It might be incitement enough to keep a few deserts around. One could also give some Malakin units the ability to hide in deserts, going invisible and ambushing whoever tries to pass through.
One might also go a different route, and give all units standing on desert tiles a slight health degeneration, except for Malakim units. Would be realistic that an invading army would become weary and undisciplined after walking through miles and miles of desert wasteland. Demons, undead and constructs should probably be exempt from this.
A happy or health bonus for desert squares for the malakim would be another option. Even if you would get 0 production from the deserts, there'd still be a reason to keep some in your city radius, though eventually you'd probably turn them to grassland anyway once the city started to get maxed out on worked tiles.

Hmm...or perhaps the Malakim could get a special kind of bonus from Oasis squares. That might make sense.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

One might also go a different route, and give all units standing on desert tiles a slight health degeneration, except for Malakim units. Would be realistic that an invading army would become weary and undisciplined after walking through miles and miles of desert wasteland. Demons, undead and constructs should probably be exempt from this.

This is a good idea, like the crusaders wandering through the desert in plate armor and collapsing at the feet of the enemy from heat stroke.

A happy or health bonus for desert squares for the malakim would be another option. Even if you would get 0 production from the deserts, there'd still be a reason to keep some in your city radius, though eventually you'd probably turn them to grassland anyway once the city started to get maxed out on worked tiles.

Hmm...or perhaps the Malakim could get a special kind of bonus from Oasis squares. That might make sense.

A trade bonus would make sense, desert peoples congregated in oasises (sp? silly plurals) Perhaps an extra trade in every oasis square equal to the number of adjacent deserts? Though oasis tiles are usually pretty rare, this might not be enough.

Hmm, wait... Kurotates have a few LARGE cities... what if Malakim got such a bonus from this, that if they had an oasis, it would pay to have it completely surrounded by desert, leading to small cities that were still useful? Like +1 trade and hammer in an oasis for each desert tile adjacent and in the cities radius, but still only the 3 or 4 food. Combine with slightly lower maintence costs for # cities and a few units with small bonuses on deserts, maybe they'd have incentive to be desert people for a long time.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Hmm, I believe it's pronounced "oh-ACE-eez", not sure how it's spelled.

Negative healing promotion sounds great, perhaps (only/more deadly) in Malakim lands, with the Malakim immune to it in any case, or maybe the Malakim units could even heal faster there. I can imagine the Malakim having adepts using Fire 1 to scorch lands that their cities can't work, but that are still on the border to rival lands. Perhaps Malakim deserts could have a chance to spread into enemy lands? Wouldn't be too powerful, as a simple Water 1 could return them to plains. Could there be a way to change grassland to plains? Some people like it that way.

Maybe an extra trade route for each oasis that the Malakim (can/do) work? This could be interesting, but an oasis is already a valuable tile, I was hoping for more useful desert tiles.

I believe Kael said something earlier, on another thread, about having some types of terrain be more susceptible to certain Civs' cultures. Making deserts able to be spread to earlier, and being effected more greatly by Malakim culture might be a nice step. The only problem is that the Civ probably doesn't want the deserts in the first place, but it would still be a nice ability.

Perhaps there could be a Malakim hero that had some desert-enhanced abilities? One that has the ability to teleport from any desert to any other desert (with other units?) might be interesting.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

Hmm... maybe a Malakim Hero that gets stronger the more desert tiles that there are in the world? Malakim adepts turning the world to desert in preparation for their Angel of light. Doesn't sound all that good, but an interesting mechanic.

this one with.....well 151-155 ok I'll copy and repost if you want everybody or you can look..........sounds like rum-cake That is a compliment,I love rum-cake!

 

[Nikis-Knight]

A couple more thoughts about Malakim civ. It seems to be moving toward an arabianish feel, desert nomads and such, and I think that'd be cool. Analogous to the Lanun, focused toward one area, but through a different mechanism so they aren't just the Lanun of the dunes.

An issue as said is how can you encourage them to build in the desert without simply making desert tiles act like plains for them, because like Corindale said, deserts aren't going to give food to anyone. But you need food to have a city of any size. Desert peoples, to my knowledge, have been nomads and traders mostly. Here are some possible mechanics toward these ends:

1) Half of all trade route profit for Malakim cities is gained in food instead of commerce. This would allow them to grow without needing to rely on working terrain or springing all the tiles.

2) Remove health bonus from forests. This is a less harsh way of preventingthe trade route food bonus above from growing non-desert cites too fast too soon.

3) Make desert tiles provide one extra production. Malakim workers can't exactly feed themselves from cactus, but they know how to survive the heat to get at the resources there.

4) Whenever a city would lose a person (population) to either starvation or an attack, that person doesn't just disappear, but is moved instead to a random city connected via trade routes. (or maybe 50% chance). This may be a Malakim city, or else an allies with OB-in which case the citizen would retain it's nationality, making it harder for that civ to wage war against Malakim. (unahppiness form "we don't wanna fight our motherland") Limit this transfer to once per city per 10 turns or so to prevent abuse. This would represent nomads being willing to follow the food.

5) The malakim population fed by trade routes makes them another good candidate (Kuriotates and Gregori being the others) for great person strategies, as these people are either mining the deserts or specialists. A small synergy bonus for this could be allowing GP super specialists to leave a city as in 4 if the city is destroyed if that city has a trade route to another Malakim city.

6) A Carrot and stick method to make deserts attractive, rather than just possible, is needed. I'd enable any desert tiles in the city radius (regardless of what cultural boundaries it lies in--this is a gift from the sun god above, not the earth) to have some effect when an enemy enters it. More common than ancient forrests, as those also have great production value. It could be a 25% chance at a sand lion, but that is similar to the fellowship Treent summoning. It could be a dramatic health degen, like 10% per turn, but would the AI know to move? I think that was mentioned with regard to a recent wonder proposal. How about summoning a sandstorm, which is a weak unit that causes collateral damage and may push the attackers away, like tremor spell. To make this defense needed, give thier cities 10-15% less defense bonus no matter where they are.

6.5) Replace their pagan temple (he doesn't seem like the type to like pagans) with a special "lightbringer temple" that increses the sanstorm or whatever.

7) Perhaps a Malakim only Oasis improvement, a "bazaar" that adds +1 hammer, +2 commerce, and provides a spices resource or a happy face.

8) Maybe an extra withdrawl chance for their calvary units when attacking into deserts as well, they disappear into the sandstorms.

Okay, well, pick and choose if you want, or just pick apart and tell me I'm in the wrong direction!

 

[Silverkiss]

Some really nice ideas in the post above, hope the teams use some. *bump*

 

[Chandrasekhar]

1) Half of all trade route profit for Malakim cities is gained in food instead of commerce. This would allow them to grow without needing to rely on working terrain or springing all the tiles.

Could be interesting, as I like the idea of the Malakim not being the sort to just farm a place to death, instead living off the land. A city of nomads that has many of its citizens roaming from city to city time to time might cause this effect. Still, I don't like the implied commerce penalty from getting only half commerce from trade routes. Perhaps trade routes could provide full commerce and half food?

2) Remove health bonus from forests. This is a less harsh way of preventingthe trade route food bonus above from growing non-desert cites too fast too soon.

Seems like a small and rather strange penalty. Still, if it would be a balancing factor, it might be a nice idea. Any specific logic you'd use to justify it?

3) Make desert tiles provide one extra production. Malakim workers can't exactly feed themselves from cactus, but they know how to survive the heat to get at the resources there.

Maybe one one default yield for Malakim desert tiles? It would be nice if improvements that normally are blocked for deserts could be built there as well (farms, workshops, cottages), though they might have decreased yield, and perhaps the workshops and/or farms would give -1 . I'd think that farms would still have to be irrigated. We'd want to make these tiles and improvements better than turning the land under them into plains, but they still have to be different.

4) Whenever a city would lose a person (population) to either starvation or an attack, that person doesn't just disappear, but is moved instead to a random city connected via trade routes. (or maybe 50% chance). This may be a Malakim city, or else an allies with OB-in which case the citizen would retain it's nationality, making it harder for that civ to wage war against Malakim. (unahppiness form "we don't wanna fight our motherland") Limit this transfer to once per city per 10 turns or so to prevent abuse. This would represent nomads being willing to follow the food.

I've liked this idea myself in different places, and it might suit the Malakim well, but it sounds like it might be real tough to code/design, for too little benefit. Still, if the team wants to do it, it might be alright. Maybe their spread could be restricted by happiness/health cap on other cities (nomads wouldn't go there, and it would help make sure that it doesn't become an inconvenience).

5) The malakim population fed by trade routes makes them another good candidate (Kuriotates and Gregori being the others) for great person strategies, as these people are either mining the deserts or specialists. A small synergy bonus for this could be allowing GP super specialists to leave a city as in 4 if the city is destroyed if that city has a trade route to another Malakim city.

Heh, I like that idea. Maybe a percentage chance of the GP making it? Perhaps it would only provide a free specialist instead of a full-fledged super specialist?

6) A Carrot and stick method to make deserts attractive, rather than just possible, is needed. I'd enable any desert tiles in the city radius (regardless of what cultural boundaries it lies in--this is a gift from the sun god above, not the earth) to have some effect when an enemy enters it. More common than ancient forrests, as those also have great production value. It could be a 25% chance at a sand lion, but that is similar to the fellowship Treent summoning. It could be a dramatic health degen, like 10% per turn, but would the AI know to move? I think that was mentioned with regard to a recent wonder proposal. How about summoning a sandstorm, which is a weak unit that causes collateral damage and may push the attackers away, like tremor spell. To make this defense needed, give thier cities 10-15% less defense bonus no matter where they are.

6.5) Replace their pagan temple (he doesn't seem like the type to like pagans) with a special "lightbringer temple" that increses the sanstorm or whatever.

I like the negative healing thing, though I'm not sure if it can be made to work in workable tiles, regardless of cultural borders. I'd prefer to just see it effect all Malakim desert tiles. The AI would probably handle it like it does fallout (not sure how it handles fallout, though ).

7) Perhaps a Malakim only Oasis improvement, a "bazaar" that adds +1 hammer, +2 commerce, and provides a spices resource or a happy face.

I like this! Not sure what I can add to it, but it seems worth consideration.

8) Maybe an extra withdrawl chance for their calvary units when attacking into deserts as well, they disappear into the sandstorms.

Perhaps a movement bonus as well? We don't want to make these guys clones of the Doviello, but I'd say that we aren't really in danger of that.

I might be stepping beyond myself to tell you this, but I think it's the right direction!

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Perhaps trade routes could provide full commerce and half food?

everything up for balance, of course.

Seems like a small and rather strange penalty. Still, if it would be a balancing factor, it might be a nice idea. Any specific logic you'd use to justify it?

Didn't want to copy the -1 farm penalty, and thought it'd be simplest to work with the already in health mechanic. It may not be needed or likewise may not be enough.

Maybe one one default yield for Malakim desert tiles? It would be nice if improvements that normally are blocked for deserts could be built there as well (farms, workshops, cottages), though they might have decreased yield, and perhaps the workshops and/or farms would give -1 . I'd think that farms would still have to be irrigated. We'd want to make these tiles and improvements better than turning the land under them into plains, but they still have to be different.

I'd rule out cottages in deserts, if any sort of realism is a goal. I just don't think you could have that many people living on the desert squares outside the cities. Farms could work, since a +1/+2 w/ sanitation bonus would still be small. My goal with the ideas was to have sort of a nation of traders who import most of thier food, and the cities having lots of empty squares but lots of specialists. So I'd rather not boost up the desert tiles too much, if the food/trade route thing worked.

The way that the deserts would be better than plains would ideally be the combat advantages.

EDIT: sorry, I meant the protection the tiles would offer by hindering incoming units in some way, not just a straight +% combat on desert like the Dovellio have.

I've liked this idea myself in different places, and it might suit the Malakim well, but it sounds like it might be real tough to code/design, for too little benefit. Still, if the team wants to do it, it might be alright. Maybe their spread could be restricted by happiness/health cap on other cities (nomads wouldn't go there, and it would help make sure that it doesn't become an inconvenience).

Yeah, my ideas come from a complete lack of coding knowledge. The goal was to see the population shift around as the trade routes change, and citizens fleeing a city when it's resources are pillaged.

I like the negative healing thing, though I'm not sure if it can be made to work in workable tiles, regardless of cultural borders. I'd prefer to just see it effect all Malakim desert tiles. The AI would probably handle it like it does fallout (not sure how it handles fallout, though ).

Does fallout give damage to units?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yeah, but if the Malakim get food from trade routes, and they happen to be in a fertile location, then they'll just have massive cities, and that was supposed to be the Kuriotates' thing. And the deserts being better primarily through combat would just mean that the Malakim are good desert fighters, but they really have no other relation to them. I think that a tundra combat bonus for the Doviello works out okay because they're supposed to be a warlike Civ, but the Malakim just don't seem that way to me.

I'd like to see the Malakim settling on the edges of deserts, using food from the grasslands and plains to work desert tiles which give other bonuses. Just as elves can build in forests where most would cut them down, I'd like to see the Malakim able to have some improvements there. Perhaps the Malakim cottages on deserts could be limited in their growth. Keep in mind that a village on a desert that gives the yields I've described would give one and five (because of Varn's finantial trait, and six if it's allowed to mature fully), with no food to supply it. The people working this tile would be getting their food from outside sources. A farm (with sanitation) would give 2 , 1 , one . It would be barely self-sufficient, built only because the city is too short on food in other areas, and could only be built by an oasis. A workshop (it would reduce commerce by one in the place of food), would provide a straight three , only viable for a city with little production and much need for it.

I'd like to see the Malakim using deserts as a viable component to their economic strategy. Of course, they'd need some grassland and probably some plains, too, but they should also have some vast deserts which they don't want to get rid of. Here's another, more moderate, idea for the team to chew on: Malakim windmills on flatland desert tiles.

 

[snarko]

I like the idea of food from trade routes but it wouldn't really make deserts better, it would just make the civ better. I would suggest changing it instead to rely on both trade routes and deserts. Like every two desert plots in the city radius gives +1 food per trade route. I don't think this alone would make deserts worth it but it's a start.

 

[Chalid]

Not read all the posts but one thing i also thought.

I guess I'm just looking for a way to keep the world's deserts from being all converted to plains by the year 400

My solution would be that you need the posibility to irrigate a plot to spring it. So spring would only work next to farms and next to rivers/seas. Maybe even stricter: limit it to only plots with fresh water.

 

[QES]

This religion idea is supposed to be a bit "off" kilter. Much like the cult of the Dragon, it's intended to play against the other 5 religions as "a whole" instead of being particularly independant. STill, unlike the Cultists, this religion has a purpose, an end, and themes much like the other relgions.

Kinship of the Lost is a group of asetic monks (no particular God) who cultivate a sense of nothingness and try to acend. (Yes..its buddhism, but with a twist).

The Kinship of the Lost, spreads when war occurs. If a city is captured, there is an X% chance that it will gain followers of the lost. In this, the Lost spread through acknowledgement of woe and hard ache. Cities with unhappy people also have a Y% chance. These chances are only available if connected to the trade network of the founding civ.

The Kinship of the Lost, can make disciples, but have no other passive form of spreading. The Kinship have unique buildings and units that spread its word.
The Kinship's Goal is to acsend. They accomplish this by teching out. A tech victory. Because, once they accend, who cares? They accend not to the realm of gods, but to their own personalized, (and created) realm. They make their own heaven.

Some Building Ideas:
KINSHIP OF LOST FOUNDING CITY: +4 Happy, +2 Culture, +2 Food (Reproduction) {Concept: Tragedy}

Temple of the Lost - Templish features (Concept: Astestism)
Garden of Kinship - +2 Healthy (Concept: Be in Balance for the World to come)

The Obligitory Wonder that Ends the Game in a Victory (Kinda like the Master Tower, but only ONE religion can build it.) Not sure how to prevent people from being something else, then switching to it to win. It should be something sought after for a long time. Maybe the wonder can be built with the same technology as the one that discovers it.....but its VERY expensive....as in the most expensive in the game, but doesnt require ANYTHING else. And you must be Kinship to build it, if you switch, its production is lost.


Some Unit Ideas:
Kinship Monk - Attack Unit that also can bring the religion to other cities. If Monk defeats an opponent, it has a % chance to create another Monk. {Concept: Disciple type unit but martial}

Martyr - Invisable Unit, Can go into cities of other Civs, and Purge religions. Also may found a religion. {Concept: Missle-type ground unit designed for damaging or disrupting enemy cities, tragic}

Dalbudma - National Unit (Limit 3): Cannot be attacked except by Invisable units. {Concept: Serenely wise and untouchable}


Some Civic Ideas:

Cultureal Values: Ascetisism - +50% War Weariness
- -50% Military Production
- +3 Specialists in All cities with Ascetisism
- +2 Happy In All cities with Ascetisism
- +1 Food from Farms, +2 From Monestaries


Some Improvement Ideas:

Monestary (Replaces Winery) +2 Hammers, +2 Food

This Religion would be best suited for Tech Turtles, and people who want to avoid conflict. It also works great as a thorne in the side of the other religions, "snubing" them, without actually being agnostic. Plus it offers a different route to the completion of the game. And Civs will have to keep an Eye on Kinship of the Lost Civs, lest they build their accention wonder.

Maybe the space ship ending could be changed to fit this. Just a "List" of national wonders needed to be built. Ascention of the Body, Ascention of the Mind, Ascention of the Soul, Ascention of the Lost. Each having a tech requirement, but the lost not requiring anything but the other 3.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

I'm not quite sure why this discussion of deserts & Malakim is in a religion thread, but here's my $.02:

I like that idea of food by trade routes, and agree that deserts need to be more usefull. How about this:

1) One free food with every trade route.
Benefits from increases such as the harbor building's +50%, inn's +25%, and tavern's +25%.
Food limited to 1/2 the number of desert tiles in the city radius. (1/2 is just an estimate, tweak the number of deserts required untill it feels right)
Also limited by population to 1 free food per population

The bonus food will allow citys in desert areas to grow quickly initially, but the deserts will eventually cripple the citys ability to grow. Small, quickly growing, therefore more replacable, citys sound flavorful to me.


2) Allow creation of workshops on desert.
I'm not sure how one could do this just for the Malakim without making a new "Malakim Workshop" buildable only with a unique tech, worker, or resource. If a new workshop is added, I think it should have the <bCarriesIrrigation> tag true. This could allow irrigation water to be transported across deserts to plains and grasslands. This would provide a unique flavor benefit for the Malakim allowing better use of desert areas. I'd also give this workshop 1 extra trade yield.

The workshops will enable some conventional production in desert regions so that people will not resort to whip-builds with the people from the free food. Slavery doesn't seem to fit with the Malakim's good fire god to me.

 

[QES]

I'm not quite sure why this discussion of deserts & Malakim is in a religion thread, but here's my $.02:

I like that idea of food by trade routes, and agree that deserts need to be more usefull. How about this:

1) One free food with every trade route.
Benefits from increases such as the harbor building's +50%, inn's +25%, and tavern's +25%.
Food limited to 1/2 the number of desert tiles in the city radius. (1/2 is just an estimate, tweak the number of deserts required untill it feels right)
Also limited by population to 1 free food per population

The bonus food will allow citys in desert areas to grow quickly initially, but the deserts will eventually cripple the citys ability to grow. Small, quickly growing, therefore more replacable, citys sound flavorful to me.


2) Allow creation of workshops on desert.
I'm not sure how one could do this just for the Malakim without making a new "Malakim Workshop" buildable only with a unique tech, worker, or resource. If a new workshop is added, I think it should have the <bCarriesIrrigation> tag true. This could allow irrigation water to be transported across deserts to plains and grasslands. This would provide a unique flavor benefit for the Malakim allowing better use of desert areas. I'd also give this workshop 1 extra trade yield.

The workshops will enable some conventional production in desert regions so that people will not resort to whip-builds with the people from the free food. Slavery doesn't seem to fit with the Malakim's good fire god to me.

For the Workshop...what are they working with? Sand? Id prefer it if it was a "glassmaker" workshop replacement. This could provide that city (and perhaps that city alone?) with "glass" a luxury and/or strategic resource.

MOST Desert peoples did one of three things to live. A) They traded obscenely, and made sure no one else could trade but them. B) They built up large armies (Usually a LOT of calvary) and conquered peoples to give them tribute. Or C) Get assimilated by their neighbors.

IF something is done "special" for desert peoples, it shouldn't be making the desert more profitable (any income, food/hammers/wealth) it should be using the desert more as a barrier to other civs. Use it to launch attacks from (because one's units are attuned to it). Or trade across it. ID be more willing to say that ALL settelers and workers cannot go into Desert, except for desert people settlers and workers. That would provide the Desert people with a unique advantage, and "raise the bar" for everyone else. Deserts are harsh, not productive. It'd make people play them different, and it would also create and interesting strategy to use fire magic to reduce a boarder to desert, then have the only roads available through it. You could use this tactic to cut off an enemy from trade routes (unless he's got access to the sea).

Desert peoples are traders and warriors. Not producers. (Except for Oil...but this is a Fantasy Mod)

-QES

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

For the Workshop...what are they working with? Sand? Id prefer it if it was a "glassmaker" workshop replacement. This could provide that city (and perhaps that city alone?) with "glass" a luxury and/or strategic resource.

MOST Desert peoples did one of three things to live. A) They traded obscenely, and made sure no one else could trade but them. B) They built up large armies (Usually a LOT of calvary) and conquered peoples to give them tribute. Or C) Get assimilated by their neighbors.

IF something is done "special" for desert peoples, it shouldn't be making the desert more profitable (any income, food/hammers/wealth) it should be using the desert more as a barrier to other civs. Use it to launch attacks from (because one's units are attuned to it). Or trade across it. ID be more willing to say that ALL settelers and workers cannot go into Desert, except for desert people settlers and workers. That would provide the Desert people with a unique advantage, and "raise the bar" for everyone else. Deserts are harsh, not productive. It'd make people play them different, and it would also create and interesting strategy to use fire magic to reduce a boarder to desert, then have the only roads available through it. You could use this tactic to cut off an enemy from trade routes (unless he's got access to the sea).

Desert peoples are traders and warriors. Not producers. (Except for Oil...but this is a Fantasy Mod)

-QES

I spoke of desert tiles allowing something with glass and I just thought about Glassiers for glass blowing and the ablity to make glass containers not only could bring commerce and allow food to be held better... but I think Moltov Cocktails ......

 

[Chandrasekhar]

The problem with requiring deserts to have fresh water before they can be changed to plains is that many fresh water desert tiles are flood plains anyway. Still, it might be a nice limiting idea. And, it could stack with our ideas for making Malakim deserts more productive.

About the deserts not being productive in real life, keep in mind that if these Malakim have the blessings of the Sun god, and if they have a magical affinity for deserts, they'd probably be able to coax something out of it. Also keep in mind that FfH is supposed to be fun and flavorful, so anything that will promote those goals is good.