Design: Technologies

[Kael]

Speaking of this i will submit my code as soon as the Version for the crowds is out. Have you read the comment of Lunargent above mine? I just replied to his one so i do not want it to be overread.

Yeah, I agree with both of you and rather than move the religions closer to each other in the tech tree (i like having later game religions) Im hoping that tending the ai toward waiting for the good and evil religions will work better.

It also helps move us toward the holy grail of making every randomly generated game different. In some games with a lot of evil leaders the veil will be a popular state religion, others will tend toward good or neutral religions. Players will have to consider the opponents they have discovered when they decide to religion ruch towards one their neighbors will be likely to adopt (or they could go for a opposed one, it will just be a more difficult road). Or players could force their hand and cherry pick their opponents on the custom game screen toward those that will favor the religion they prefer to play with.

 

[Corlindale]

Ive also added an AI block in the latest version so that ai's wont discover techs that would change their alignment. So if they are good they wont discover message from the deep or corruption of spriit, etc etc.

In that case I think the ability to build workshops should be removed from Dwarven Studies. I don't think such a general ability should be tied to the tech of a certain religion, and especially not if evil AI civs will consequently be completely blocked from making workshops.

Will neutral AI civs only be able to discover Elven Studies then, or do they have access to all religions?(I assume it's the latter)

 

[Kael]

In that case I think the ability to build workshops should be removed from Dwarven Studies. I don't think such a general ability should be tied to the tech of a certain religion, and especially not if evil AI civs will consequently be completely blocked from making workshops.

Good point, moved to Education (other posibilities Mathematics, Trade or Construction).

Will neutral AI civs only be able to discover Elven Studies then, or do they have access to all religions?(I assume it's the latter)

Anyone can found the fellowship.

 

[Corlindale]

Anyone can found the fellowship.

Can neutral civs also found anything?

I think workshops would fit better with Construction. I don't really consider the Education tech to have much connection with menial labour.

 

[Chalid]

I think we will reorganize the tech tree anyway. So no need to bother with fine tuning it now. But yes construction seem good, but it already gives a lot of things. especially improvementwise.

Does anyone look at Lunargents tree as he has not time to rework it (and we might want to get it into 1.12 or 1.13)

 

[Kael]

Can neutral civs also found anything?

No, the AI won't found the veil or the order if it is neutral.

I think workshops would fit better with Construction. I don't really consider the Education tech to have much connection with menial labour.

K, Ill switch it as you and Chalid suggest.

 

[Naphtali]

Just as an observation. You need to be careful about which religion techs are prerequisites for other techs.

Otherwise the AI may get into a situation where it can't research a given part of the tech tree beacuse it will found a non-compatible religion. This could be quite an issue if for example all the AI's are good, or all evil and the human players intentionally avoid founding a religion to stifle AI's options etc.

You could even just make it so that the AI may found any religion, but won't adopt a non-aligned religion as its state religion. (No idea how hard that is to change)

Other solutions are things like the currently proposed Healing Runes Or Destructive Runes leading to Binding Runes. (Ensuring that multiple alignments can get to Binding Runes)

 

[loki1232]

Just as an observation. You need to be careful about which religion techs are prerequisites for other techs.

Otherwise the AI may get into a situation where it can't research a given part of the tech tree beacuse it will found a non-compatible religion. This could be quite an issue if for example all the AI's are good, or all evil and the human players intentionally avoid founding a religion to stifle AI's options etc.

You could even just make it so that the AI may found any religion, but won't adopt a non-aligned religion as its state religion. (No idea how hard that is to change)

Other solutions are things like the currently proposed Healing Runes Or Destructive Runes leading to Binding Runes. (Ensuring that multiple alignments can get to Binding Runes)

As long as we make it simply more likely to adopt a religion near its basic alignment, i don't see a problem here.

 

[Kael]

Just as an observation. You need to be careful about which religion techs are prerequisites for other techs.

Otherwise the AI may get into a situation where it can't research a given part of the tech tree beacuse it will found a non-compatible religion. This could be quite an issue if for example all the AI's are good, or all evil and the human players intentionally avoid founding a religion to stifle AI's options etc.

You could even just make it so that the AI may found any religion, but won't adopt a non-aligned religion as its state religion. (No idea how hard that is to change)

Other solutions are things like the currently proposed Healing Runes Or Destructive Runes leading to Binding Runes. (Ensuring that multiple alignments can get to Binding Runes)

Your right, and either solution works. But we block at the tech because the civ shouldnt waste the time getting a tech if it cant use the religion anyway. And we make sure not to have a religious founding tech required by non-religious techs.

 

[Xanikk999]

I have only one complaint i can think of with the techs so far.

It seems that the starting techs for many of the civs are the same.

Can you vary it a little more?

I see several civs with ancient chants and agriculture as starting techs.

Its nothing major, but i think it would be better that way.

 

[Xuenay]

I see that you've considered removing the bonus tech ability from Philosophy or moving it somewhere else - I've got to say, come on. I don't really see it as being *that* unbalancing - yes, it may be somewhat unbalancing, but so is Orthus spawning right next to player X and wiping out half of his empire without touching any of the others. The mild unbalancing factor is just what makes it fun - how many of you can honestly say that you don't love grabbing Philosophy first and using it to develop some high-cost tech?

Don't sacrifice the fun factor for an exaggarated balance. Keep Philosophy where it is, please.

 

[Lunargent]

It's more than it being unbalanced- though it is. I just feel that it is lame to have a tech available that early that gives a free tech. It becomes so strong of a strategy that it's crazy not to go that way. I think moving it up will actually free up things. The original Philosophy was deep in the tree, and was moved whole cloth.

In any case, I really need to get on this ( I keep saying that to myself ). Working nights is crimping my style, since I'm working when I'm feeling most like coding. And I hate sitting at the computer in the afternoon, especially in the summer, I prefer to go outside. I've not played a game since late April.

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

The way I'll probably implement this is to make a new branch about where philosophy is now (it and it's free tech come FAR too early to be balanced, and I have plans to move to a late spot), and make each of the techs lead to a different religion. Depending upon how far Kael wants to go with it, I could have further techs leading off of those developing the lines further.

The way it is now, each of the religions requires one mystical branch tech and one other tech. This would expand the mystical branch nicely, I think, which is a bit narrow at the bottom for my liking.

Philosophy has spent its time shrinking according to modern European and American thought yet if you look at the conversations had during the most popular times recalled about the Philos Sophia you can find some interesting things about describing in modern language with the current flow of ideas like this:
1Paradigms
2Mysticism 2Ontology,
3Philosophy 3Religion, 3Philology............Now with this progression people may get excited and want to argue until you offer definition Because Ontology even though it is often found under the heading philosophy and like this erroneos conclusion, it actually belongs under what its name implies the Study of the Ultimate thus an ontological conversation is an ultimate coversation and an ontological arguement being the only thing you are not supposed to do in Ontology is an arguement that can't be answered by any method tradition, intuition or reason and usually is an arguement about God or gods or whatever...

In a similiar manner Paradigms are often found under the heading of ontology ,which is as much science as it is philosophy, yet once again being the primary and not the secondary source for paradigms are simply the sets of ideas, thoughts, values and associations that make up experience and all of those others are further down within that distiction....

So to be ontological about it. A distiction is dirrect ostention.An abstraction is deferred ostention and thus the abstraction is a number of distinctions grouped together. These sorts of breakdowns must happen first or mysticism, philosophy, religion,philology and even reason, emotion,intuition and every category after are impossible.....however the difficulty lies in the need to be a little self-referential in a non-linear thinking manner the root,tree and fruit analogy work well for this.......How quickly it gets slippery....

Likewise philology is where we find this happening again guess what some fruits of it are if you don't already know........History........Mathematics.......ect........
Boy am I sorry I had to do this again.....But I feel stronglly that those of us that study these things in depth could at least pay attention enough to notice that the name of the Base game is Civilization and vanilla's alright but I like Rocky Road and Butterscotch or Strawberry too.........later if you need reinteration let me know.........."doh!,I'm confused now" is not my goal.

 

[Sureshot]

I've been having trouble getting Elven studies before anyone else in the Deity setting with the Ljosalfar, and if I don't get it first then it never comes to me (I end up with cult of the dragon in all my cities or if I'm lucky I'll get Kilmorph or Octo religions).

Would it be possible to maybe give a Disciple of the Leaf to the elven civs when they discover Elven studies if they aren't the first to get it? It's a big let down to be working on Elven studies since the beginning and then get beat out at the last second and never getting ancient forests, just don't feel very elfy.

 

[Chalid]

Seems like you have to conquer a leaves city.

But if you are playing Deity, how is the difficulty up there compared to a Vanilla Deity game with similar settings (Map usw..)?

 

[Sureshot]

It's easier than Vanilla because of heroes, I can't describe just how many times Gilden stopped invasions single handedly (I even renamed a city Gildenstand for Gilden's Stand because he survived an army that would have wiped out my entire small nation), and then advancing on their lands pillaging, forcing them into peace.

Also the Charm spell saved me plenty as well, in Vanilla Deity games most wars wipe me out and I'm forced to just give in to demands and hope for the best if I want to survive.

Though in general I have to be much more defense oriented because of barbarians (on Raging usually, and in Vanilla civ barbarians are usually just a nuisance not a threat).

Using heroes to take over cities just doesn't work though, all my attempts at getting a Leaves city have failed miserably and there's no way of out teching civs on Deity (especially with 18 civs O_o).

 

[loki1232]

Pillage the countries of your enemies to slow their teching and make alliances, eh? Also, lots and lots of fireballs.

 

[Sureshot]

They get Fellowship of Leaves before I can even pretend to sustain a 2 turn assault before dying :O

 

[Chalid]

It might get better when the new tech tree is in. I fear you have to have patience until then and play someone else.

 

[Sureshot]

I just lowered difficulty a bit and got a high trade starter city and play a Classical time period game (Elven studies is available right off so only need to get one tech before any AI players) and it works out without it being too easy a game.