[Development] Alternative Map during 1.17

[Leoreth]

So how about add Shannon River in Ireland? And maybe add potato in Ireland after Industrial era. Maybe instead of sheep or cow?

I decided against including the Shannon river for two reasons:
- the way the island is configured makes it hard to include the river without it looking strange
- I don't want to make Ireland too commerce rich

As always, I am working on the 3000 BC state of the map, resource spawns are not part of the consideration.

Also another question, Aral Sea is a salt lake, but in the map the tiles provide 2 foods.

Right.

About Britain: I can't discern the moorlands from the grasslands, is it possible to make the color difference more noticeable? The mountain in Scotland looks really bad (aesthetically), there's nothing in real life there to justify it - sure, the highlands are there, but they're really not that high, and it's more like hills with moorland or tundra that we should have there. Perhaps you can move the Scottish oil much farther north so that it's only reachable from Aberdeen (since that's where scotland's oil industry is located). I'd also move other resources (not sure which though) to make Edinburgh or Glasgow interesting from the early game.

I think Moorland is distinctive enough, it's just somewhat obscured by the forests on them. The tiles in question are 1N and 1W of the Cow in Scotland and 1N1W and 1S of the Sheep in Ireland.

I like the mountain in Scotland aesthetically, it provides more geographical texture to Scotland as well. Peaks must not be of a specific height but rather are relative to the surrounding topography.

Most maps I have found for the British oil industry show oil fields in the North Sea, i.e. east of Great Britain, not so much to its north. I also don't want to really force players to found another city besides Edinburgh (or more generally, more than one Scottish city). Right now, I think there is enough incentive to controlling Scotland, most importantly the iron.

 

[Leoreth]

New update:
- changed the Aral Sea into a salt lake
- added semidesert west and north of the Sahara
- changed part of the Libyan coast to desert to disconnect Egypt and Tunisia
- Semidesert: now +1 hammer, +1 commerce next to river (removed food from river)
- changed plains in central and southeastern Persia to semidesert
- moved Millet in central Persia to Khorasan
- terrain changes in India (see screenshots below)

India:

Spoiler :

- added semidesert in Rajasthan and along the northern Indus, extending its floodplains upstream
- added Horses in Rajasthan
- removed some floodplains along the Ganges
- moved Tea near Patna and Calcutta to more accurate locations (Darjeeling and Assam)
- placed another Dye near Calcutta to compensate (three indigo is not too much for India)
- instead of plain floodplains, the Ganges delta is now mostly vegetation (a mix of marsh, rainforest, jungle, forest), it was very inaccurate to have no vegetation there of all places
- placed another Rice within reach of Calcutta and Dhaka and another Fish within reach of Calcutta to compensate the food difference somewhat

There was still very little feedback on India in my notes and southern India is still completely untouched, if anyone wants to give it a look it would be highly welcome.

 

[TJDowling]

Hey, just going to make the plea one more time to make Hawaii bigger. Yes even the main island of Hawaii is only 10000sqkm but if you think of the Pacific islands like you think of mountains on the map. Mountains are placed not based on topographical height but height in relation to the terrain. There are areas of the Andes that are thousands of metres higher than other mountains on the map but have hills in place because relative to their surrounding. Similarly, Tonga is represented by 2-3 full land tiles (each one island) even though it is less than 1000sqkm. If Tonga is 2-3 tiles then Hawaii, which is thousands of sqkm bigger than Tonga should at least be a couple more tiles. Even the old map 2 tiles for Big island and two more small islands for a total of 4 would be better than the current.

Sorry, I've become very into the Polynesia game. It's the only one I can reliably win historically so I'm feeling passionate about this.

 

[Leoreth]

Nothing against changing Hawaii, but I need an actual proposal of what it should look like.

 

[TJDowling]

This is a bit big but doesn't look terrible and represents all four major islands in Hawaii, Big Island, Maui, O'ahu and Kauai. Some island features to fill in the gaps. The ideal city to settle hasn't changed. Mostly it's an aesthetic change but in the late game the US could reasonably get two cities if the player is so motivated. One at Honolulu (O'ahu) and one on Big Island. Big Island is de-incentivized early on with Steppe, jungle and mountains. All that said Hawaii is purely a human player game. Don't know that I've ever seen a computer settle it. Anyway, maybe this is a good starting point?

I think the best argument for this is that if O'ahu is one tile Kauai and M'aui should be too. M'aui is bigger than O'ahu and Kauai is only a tiny bit smaller.

Spoiler :

 

[TJDowling]

Suggested additional Rare Earths. Vietnam has been quoted lately as having the second largest reserves of Rare Earths in the world seems they are concentrated in the South. Canada has at times been quoted as having the largest reserves (but not lately). Either way substantial reserves exist in the Canadian North. I suggest adding one in Northern Ontario and one in Northern Quebec.

Spoiler :

 

[Leoreth]

This is a bit big but doesn't look terrible and represents all four major islands in Hawaii, Big Island, Maui, O'ahu and Kauai. Some island features to fill in the gaps. The ideal city to settle hasn't changed. Mostly it's an aesthetic change but in the late game the US could reasonably get two cities if the player is so motivated. One at Honolulu (O'ahu) and one on Big Island. Big Island is de-incentivized early on with Steppe, jungle and mountains. All that said Hawaii is purely a human player game. Don't know that I've ever seen a computer settle it. Anyway, maybe this is a good starting point?

I think the best argument for this is that if O'ahu is one tile Kauai and M'aui should be too. M'aui is bigger than O'ahu and Kauai is only a tiny bit smaller.

Spoiler :

View attachment 526581

That's way too big.

 

[TJDowling]

That's way too big.

Yeah, I mean it's only as long as the South Island on New Zealand which is CLOSE to accurate IRL but I agree it's too big. Well perhaps we can revert back to what it is on the current playable map. 2 tiles for the big island one tile for O'ahu and one tile for Kauai.

 

[Leoreth]

New update:
- changed the Aral Sea into a salt lake
- added semidesert west and north of the Sahara
- changed part of the Libyan coast to desert to disconnect Egypt and Tunisia
- Semidesert: now +1 hammer, +1 commerce next to river (removed food from river)
- changed plains in central and southeastern Persia to semidesert
- moved Millet in central Persia to Khorasan
- terrain changes in India (see screenshots below)

India:

Spoiler :

View attachment 526559 View attachment 526560

- added semidesert in Rajasthan and along the northern Indus, extending its floodplains upstream
- added Horses in Rajasthan
- removed some floodplains along the Ganges
- moved Tea near Patna and Calcutta to more accurate locations (Darjeeling and Assam)
- placed another Dye near Calcutta to compensate (three indigo is not too much for India)
- instead of plain floodplains, the Ganges delta is now mostly vegetation (a mix of marsh, rainforest, jungle, forest), it was very inaccurate to have no vegetation there of all places
- placed another Rice within reach of Calcutta and Dhaka and another Fish within reach of Calcutta to compensate the food difference somewhat

There was still very little feedback on India in my notes and southern India is still completely untouched, if anyone wants to give it a look it would be highly welcome.

I forgot to mention some changes in Central America in this post:
- placed Lake Nicaragua
- changed a Rainforest between Central and South America to Marsh to represent the Darién Gap

Yeah, I mean it's only as long as the South Island on New Zealand which is CLOSE to accurate IRL but I agree it's too big. Well perhaps we can revert back to what it is on the current playable map. 2 tiles for the big island one tile for O'ahu and one tile for Kauai.

Which brings us back to this:

Nothing against changing Hawaii, but I need an actual proposal of what it should look like.

 

[TJDowling]

Lol, perhaps something like this?

Spoiler :

 

[Leoreth]

.... the relative position to the rest of the map kind of matters here.

 

[TJDowling]

.... the relative position to the rest of the map kind of matters here.

Fair enough, the rainforest tile is 4, X: 2, Y: 42

Could also add island feature 1W of the western most island.

 

[Novicenoble]

Talking about rare earth materials, you can find it on almost anywhere on the landmass of the earth. The real problem is extracting them from the earth requires huge manpower and generates great pollution. That's why most rare earth production had done on 3rd world countries. I wonder rare earth suits well as the resource in civilization game, but you may represent it as it gives big pollution penalty to the nearby city but no pollution from the resource itself. So you can choose whether you go for developing your own rare material mine with pollution, or just import from some other civilizations.

 

[Leoreth]

New update:
- added a land tile at the southwest of Iberia
- adjusted terrain in the Balkans (Carpathians and course of the Danube, see below)

Spoiler :

It took me quite some time to figure out why I found dealing with this part of the map so difficult. Eventually I realised that the Black Sea is way up north compared to where it should be relative to the Adriatic Sea and the rest of Central/Western Europe, which caused problems for the Danube which connects the two. Also, as AbsintheRed pointed out in the suggestions thread, Europe is essentially being expanded at its edges, leaving regions in the center like the Carpathian basin disproportionally unchanged. Part of the problem as well are peaks: they take up an entire tile while the intent is often to use them as borders between the inside and outside of a mountain range, this is especially pronounced with the Carpathians that are like a half circle.

Anyway, it was impossible to completely fix this distortion without moving Anatolia south at the expense of the Levant and Mesopotamia. This is obviously not desirable, so some other region had to lose out and have diminished space compared to what they should. Before it was essentially Hungary/Romania. Here I have made the decision to instead reduce Moldova/Bessarabia. This region seemed kind of large before and isn't as important historically.

Changelog:
- moved the Dniester delta north. While feeding into the Black Sea southward would be even better, this is still more accurate.
- likewise, moved the Danube delta north
- added marsh at the Danube delta
- moved the eastern peaks of the Carpathians east
- left a gap in the southern peaks of the Carpathians, and added another 1S1W to suggest the overall shape of the range and represent the Iron Gates. This way, there is also a way from Wallachia into Transsylvania to make Romania a bit more connected
- extended the southward flow of the Danube another tile south. This is overall more accurate, even though it makes the course of the river less varied. It also expands Hungary at the expense of Serbia which was too far north before
- changed the Great Hungarian Plain into Steppe
- changed the Ukranian part of the Eurasian Steppe into ... Steppe
- removed Horses from the Danube delta (does anyone know why they were there specifically?)
- placed Horses in western Anatolia (to match the current map, not shown)
- placed Wine in Romania southwest of the Carpathians
- placed Oil on the Bucharest tile to represent the Ploiesti fields (by the way, does anyone know what the oil in Serbia is about?)
- moved Deer from 1W of Budapest to Transsylvania. This way it is still in reach of Budapest, but also alternatively Bucharest, and the triangle between Wheat, Pig and Deer is no longer as appealing

I am also considering to add peaks for the Dinaric Alps (not pushed though). It gives the western Balkans more texture, and it seems there is a little too much space there considering the historical importance of the area:

Spoiler :

Thoughts?

 

[Leoreth]

New update:
- merged a pull request by merijn_v1: fixes rubber art defines
- added Lop Nur lake in the Tarim basin
- added Santa Catalina islands in the Carribbean
- added Salt on the Bahamas (southeastern island)
- added Silver in northern Mexico
- added Marble and Olives in Spain
- added Gold and Spices in Korea
- adjusted terrain in Arabia (see below)
- adjusted terrain in the Caucasus (see below)
- added Rare Earths in Vietnam and Canada

Arabia:

Spoiler :

- moved Sheep in Yemen 1S1W (the previous sheep tile should be Sana'a which is clearly landlocked)
- changed the new Sheep tile to grassland to reflect that Yemen has the most rainfall in Arabia, and to make the area not too food poor
- added Semidesert to eastern Yemen
- added Semidesert around Hejaz
- added Semidesert around Bahrain
- changed Najd to Semidesert
- changed the Salalah tile to forested plains

(Arabia really gets a lot of value out of the addition of semidesert imo.)

Caucasus:

Spoiler :

- swapped places of Lake Van and the peak 1W of it, bringing Lake Van into a more accurate location and making the peak a good approximation of Mount Ararat
- added Lake Sevan
- removed Horses in eastern Chaldia
- changed eastern Chaldia to forested grassland
- added Wine in eastern Chaldia

 

[star15389]

It's accurate to have Bengal be jungle and marsh in 3000BC as it was a marginal region with limited agricultural output for a long time, but in the Mughal era there were a lot of forest clearances and it rapidly became the very densely populated place it is today. So I think it would be better if not only the new marsh but some of the old rainforest was removed around 1600 or so. The Spices in Korea should also not appear until at least that time; they didn't have peppers until the Imjin War and peppers weren't commonly eaten there until even later

 

[JHLee]

New update:

Spoiler :

View attachment 526763

What, there's oil in Hungary?
*searches on Google*
Oh! I never knew that.

Also, is it historically correct that there's so many forests in Anatolia?

 

[JHLee]

It's accurate to have Bengal be jungle and marsh in 3000BC as it was a marginal region with limited agricultural output for a long time, but in the Mughal era there were a lot of forest clearances and it rapidly became the very densely populated place it is today. So I think it would be better if not only the new marsh but some of the old rainforest was removed around 1600 or so.

It'd be cool if this could be implemented for China as well.

The Spices in Korea should also not appear until at least that time; they didn't have peppers until the Imjin War and peppers weren't commonly eaten there until even later

That Spice probably represents Ginseng.

 

[Leoreth]

It's accurate to have Bengal be jungle and marsh in 3000BC as it was a marginal region with limited agricultural output for a long time, but in the Mughal era there were a lot of forest clearances and it rapidly became the very densely populated place it is today. So I think it would be better if not only the new marsh but some of the old rainforest was removed around 1600 or so. The Spices in Korea should also not appear until at least that time; they didn't have peppers until the Imjin War and peppers weren't commonly eaten there until even later

It'd be cool if this could be implemented for China as well.
That Spice probably represents Ginseng.

That's correct.

What, there's oil in Hungary?
*searches on Google*
Oh! I never knew that.

Well, is there? Which source did you find?

Also, is it historically correct that there's so many forests in Anatolia?

It feels wrong by modern standards, but I'm not sure.

 

[merijn_v1]

The original map had an oil resource representing the Ploiesti oil fields. I think that the oil resource was copied to the new map, but placed very roughly in the same area (to match the original map). I guess was meant to represent the Ploiesti oil fields, but placed in a wrong location.

So I think removing the Hungarian it is the best option. Even if there is oil IRL, I think it is not very significant. (If it was, we would probably have known it) The Ploiesti oil field are already fixed.