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[Development] Alternative Map during 1.17

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Ginseng grows in northern Korean Peninsula and Manchuria, so maybe move the spices to north Korea, alongside the Changbai Mountain and the Yalu River.
     
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  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yes, I agree (both on the oil and ginseng).
     
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  3. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Malaysia and Indonesia produce the largest amount of tin in the world. It's not on the map right now, but I don't know what resources to use to refer to tin, rare earth or copper, or something else?
     
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  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Tin isn't really represented in the current resources, if it's really important to reflect tin producing countries I would say copper.
     
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  5. Novicenoble

    Novicenoble Prince

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  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Okay, I don't think it's significant enough to deserve inclusion.
     
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  7. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

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    I found Lake Balkhash looking like this while looking around the map. This is on the most recent commit of the map branch. Is this intentional?

    Spoiler Weird Lake Balkhash :
    Civ4ScreenShot0339.png
     
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  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Yes. According to what I could find, the eastern half of the lake is saline and the western half is fresh water. I tried making it half and half to see how it would look, resulting in this narrow connection. Incidentally, that is quite close to what the lake is actually like, with a narrow strait connecting the two parts, so I decided to keep it like this.
     
  9. wololo

    wololo Chieftain

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    I support this. I think this has been a clear natural boundary throughout the centuries, and would separate the more Latin/Italian-dominated Dalmatia from the rest of the Balkans.
     
  10. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    That area has few tiles as it is, I'd vote for not losing more of those with mountains. The southeastern one I think is the Sarajevo tile, which I'd like to see settled every now and then.
     
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  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    New update: further changes in Western Balkans

    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    - placed the Dinaric Alps peaks as discussed before
    - changed Slovenia into forested hill
    - changed Slavonia into grassland
    - changed Dalmatian coast into hills
    - changed forested iron mountain in the Carpathian to flat steppe (the northern part of the basin is actually quite flat and dry)
    - extended steppe south into Serbia
    - placed iron in Slovakia (this way it is also accessible for Poland)
     
  12. DarkLunaPhantom

    DarkLunaPhantom Prince Supporter

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    What do islands next to Venice represent? Maybe they should be moved one tile SE.
     
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  13. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    I think when a proposal was made on adding steppe in Canada it was strictly about Canadian terrain but I think steppe should probably extend south of the 49th as well. The areas around Montana, Wyoming and Colorado are semi-arid cool hills/mountains which I think is well-represented by steppe. I also add semi-desert around the Northern part of the Great Basin Desert in Utah/Nevada.

    Also regarding salt flats. It's +1 commerce adjacent to river. Now, I don't know if we're planning on adding much more salt flats terrain but I think at present there is only 1 saltflat tile that is river adjacent (in India). If that's meant to be a boost it's not doing much for anyone.

    Spoiler :

    Steppe Semi Desert Rocky Mountains.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  14. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Of course, I just didn't want to get drawn into doing changes in the US because I knew there were already existing suggestions for that region.
     
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  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I'm working on China right now, mostly based on @soul-breathing 's suggestions here. I incorporated most of them with some exceptions noted below, but even the stuff that I added is up for discussion. For China, a lot of the resource placement depends not just on the most accurate historical locations, but also on which city locations are encouraged. Before I can work on that, we first need to agree on where the most important cities are situated, so I included my idea of them in the screenshots here:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    Comments:
    - I did not touch food resources because they are most relevant for city placement
    - a few resources would need to be moved if this city placement is accepted (from under the city tiles)
    - Beijing: could also be 1N1E but then a lot of resources would need to be moved accordingly
    - Huai River connects directly to the sea instead of the Yangtze, as it did for most of its history
    - Jade at Lake Tai is there for historical reasons, it should expire after the classical period
    - Dali is situated a bit more east than in reality, to reduce overlap with Burma
    - Henan/Shandong is the most challenging part of the map as it is very densely populated in modern times but also historically, placement of food resources should encourage cities there
    - we had some discussions in the past about inhibiting early settlement of coastal and southern China by delaying the spawn of seafood or placing marshes and jungles, let's leave that out of the discussion at the moment
    - also, this is not the final Chinese map in any other way, especially new terrain types have yet to be added in here
     
  16. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Nanjing and Suzhou are at the south bank of Yangtze River, but in this map it's hard to settle Suzhou 1 tile south.

    Nanjing move to 1 tile south, and the tile of pig is Yangzhou/Guangling.

    Wuhan and Chongqing could be 1 tile east, to coexist Chengdu and Chongqing. And the new tile of Chongqing need to become hill, this city is a mountainous city.

    Guiyang is not on the bank of Zhujiang River, maybe 1 tile north? Not sure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I'm not sure anyone would actually build all three of Chengdu, Chongqing and Wuhan. It'll probably end up as a choice between Chengdu and Chongqing.

    And yes, there's not enough space for Suzhou in an accurate spot so 1N of the lake was the best choice I thought. And Nanjing 1S makes more sense all around, it could potentially coexist with Shanghai. Not sure why the map I had was so misleading about its location on the north side of the Yangtze.

    Are Luoyang/Kaifeng okay? I might have put them 1W but I though less overlap with Chang'an makes the player more inclined to build one of them.

    Also, any thoughts on Beijing's location?
     
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  18. Publicola

    Publicola Prince

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    I think Beijing's location is fine, but I'd object to the lack of rivers. Now that it's a bigger map, we can more accurately depict the city as lying along several tributaries of the Hai river basin. Rivers are so central to all pre-modern cities, that it's bizarre to think of settling China's capital on a riverless tile. Without such a river, there'd be a very strong incentive for all human players to avoid settling the Beijing tile.
     
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  19. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    Still I think Wuhan need to be 1E, Nanjing is not so far from Wuhan in reality. And for Chongqing and Chengdu, these 2 cities represent 2 different kind of culture in Chinese history (Ba and Shu), but nevermind, it's both ok.

    In this map, Zhengzhou (between Luoyang and Kaifeng in reality) is missed, it's also important in ancient China. But you're right, making Xi'an and Luoyang coexist is more important. By the way, the tile of Xi'an needs to be plain.

    I think Beijing could be 1N. In reality, Beijing is not coastal and almost at the same latitude as the northernmost point of the Yellow River. The problem is the location of Taiyuan, it should be far east from the Yellow River (not alongside, but in this map it's hard to reflect), 1NE maybe.

    Yes it's ok to add Haihe River. But I'm hesitant about whether Beijing should be alongside Haihe River or not. In my original suggestion, I make it only 1 tile (the Tianjin tile). But now one of the Chinese players who lives in Beijing told me, Haihe River streams through Beijing.
    Spoiler :
    Beijing is 1SW from sheep, Tianjin is 2S from sheep, Taiyuan is 2SW from sheep.

    Also I think the 2 flood plains in north Vietnam could be normal grassland at beginning, and become flood plains in 940ad (in 938ad there is a battle between Chinese dynasty and Vietnam, after that, Vietnam got independence from China).
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  20. TJDowling

    TJDowling King

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    Here's a thought: not sure if it belongs here but don't know where to put it... to reflect the difficulty of mining rare earth metals perhaps we could add a new improvement (REE mine, strip mine? Not sure what you'd call it) that we would unlock with the discovery of REEs. It would be kind of strange to have just regular mining operations immediately unlock rare earths upon discovering them because mining rare earths is a whole different game than other minerals. By adding a new improvement, possibly with a high labour cost, then we have to actively set out workers to convert old mining operations to new REE. We already have an improvement that is just for one resource (Paddy Fields). It could also have specific attributes reflecting the environmental damage like removes rainforest/jungle, adds unhealth when worked, etc.
     

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