[Development]Epic Adventures in Wildmana (civ specific victory condition)

[Randomness]

Where's Magister when you need him to tell everyone that there wrong because of this article that Kael wrote on some DnD subfourm before FfH became a Civ Mod?

 

[isthmus]

I'd like to see these conditions to lead to double-win situations for the civ that completes them rather than causing an outright win.
Could all lead to hurrying different 'standard' victory conditions, so for the amurites you could have all arcane units get a large XP gain rate with no cap to speed up the omnipotence victory, or mana spawning for tower victory.
For Balseraphs you could have a free culture building that massively boosts the culture output and great bard rate to speed up a culture victory.

 

[graywarden]

I don't particularly care for the score wins.




One other thing: Please make any victory require at least 3 steps, so the world can get a warning as each step is completed. I just remember one game being smashed by a sudden cultural victory win.

Ive been there, I thought I was going to get my first win by finishing the Luonatar, and within just a few turns, someone got me by a surprize cultural victory!!!!

 

[Tarquelne]

someone got me by a surprize cultural victory!!!!

You think you're just enjoying their sauces, fashion, and playwrights. But suddenly you realize they deserve eternal earthly dominion.

 

[graywarden]

You think you're just enjoying their sauces, fashion, and playwrights. But suddenly you realize they deserve eternal earthly dominion.

haha TOO FUNNY, and not FUNNY HAHA..... is what the warrior fears most...... arr arr

 

[graywarden]

And I'm not trying to at all. I've said multiple times now, I have no problem with viewing them as being willing to crusade against religion.

That's very different from requiring them to, though, as that DOES change the flavor. No matter how you base it, no matter how you back it up, changing from being willing to crusade and ALWAYS crusading is a massive change.

I'm not trying to force my view on it, all I'm saying is that a war-like interpretation changes their lore drastically. Make of that what you will.

WOW......... go to the Day Job for the daylight hours, and get home and realize you missed the entire SHOW.......

maybe the answer to the debate is in the middle........

and is one of my mantras......

the GAME is all about CHOICE for the PLAYER to decide.......... ??????????

 

[Neomega]

the GAME is all about CHOICE for the PLAYER to decide.......... ??????????

Yeah, but this particular project, as stated in the first post, is to encourage the player to role play. I just don't see the Grigori as zealous agnostics hell bent on the destruction of all religions. It just does not fit who they are.

 

[isthmus]

Why not have one condition that states that each religion must be below x% amount of world influence by y turns?
You could do this through enlightening or razing the hell out of a lot of cities. It's open to interpretation - I imagine there are some Grigori who despise religion, especially in the wake of the events that occur in the scenarios some of these more radical people with power would have the opportunity to enact on their religious hatred.
Sort of represents that the Grigori have succeeded in their goal to teach others to be less dependent on religion, by removing formal practice of religion in cities.

 

[Valkrionn]

That one would work IMO; Open to interpretation.

 

[tesb]

@sephi
any news if you want to add bonuses once the victory conditions are achieved, or do plan on keeping it a victory only mechanic?

 

[Jabie]

If there is a reward for role-playing the Civs then using the Quest system from BtS might be the easiest way to accomplish this goal.

 

[Calavente]

Valkrionn : I'll explain myself.

While I could agree with your interpretation and would decently agree with it there are 3 points you should note :

-holy cities goes to people that discover the religion. agnostic cannot discover the religion so can't have holy cities save through conquest.
I concure that the holy city aspect is I think not a problem for Cassiel.
But : it would seem to me that having a holy shrine in your empire is not "giving people their free will" but endorsing the religion enough so as to profit form the wealth/culture/science coming from the holy shrine. At the very least it seems to be allowing the religion's established churched enough free reign to get your share of the money. It would be a bit cynical coming from Cassiel to try to enlight people but at the same time profit from the money of conquered shrines.
The holy shrine is clearly linked not to the religion in itself but to the Established Church as there would be a big organization for helping the pilgrims, taking the tithe, raising the spreading rate of the religion...etc : those are traits that Cassiel doesn't like IMO.

My first proposal was because I can't think of any other way to leave the choice for cassiel to have the shrine removed. For me, having Cassiel profit from holy shrine is much more "unlore-ish" than Cassiel razing the holy city.
I would rather have proposed "destroy 3-4 holy shrines". but as it couldn't be done, I proposed "raze 3-4 holy cities".

If Cassiel/grigori heroes/luonnater could create a Memory of Myths building ("Museum of the Fellowship religion" or "Great Library on Kilmorph's folklore" or "Compendium on the Octopus Overlord Myths"...) in a holy city, replacing the holy shrine, and being automatically removed if conquered by somebody else, with some cool effects replacing the holyshrine effects, but not too cool, then I would have proposed something along the following terms : "own 3-4 Memory of Myths buildings"

-Religious heroes and High priests are zealots and represent clearly the established religion that Cassiel condemns : they leave your civ when you change of state religion. I think that while Cassiel is not really bothered by people following acolyte or priests, he might be bothered by the presence of representant of established church. Killing a number of those zealots may still be thematic with the grigori lore and maybe even with Cassiel.
IMO it shows that Cassiel may be not anti religious but anti "state-religion" as you target not priests/acolytes but High priests/heroes.

-Hyborem, Brigitt, Basium, the Mithril Golem, and Mulcarn are angels/gods/avatar. I would think that if Cassiel is not in crusade against people following this or that religion, even AV, he would be much displeased to have avatar of the gods walking Erebus. Thus, for me, having the Grigori kill those guys, or at least not allowing the victory condiction while those guys are present might be accurate lorewise but I'm no expert.
---------------------------

Then this subject is closed from my part, I have given, I think, all my arguments.

I'm gonna think on ideas for another civs

 

[Valkrionn]

Valkrionn : I'll explain myself.

While I could agree with your interpretation and would decently agree with it there are 3 points you should note :

Honestly, I agree with your points. I just don't think razing the city (which to me implies utterly destroying it; Think Rome and Carthage) is the way to do it. I don't think the Grigori (lead by the Archangel of Balance, remember?) would do that unless utterly necessary.

-holy cities goes to people that discover the religion. agnostic cannot discover the religion so can't have holy cities save through conquest.
I concure that the holy city aspect is I think not a problem for Cassiel.
But : it would seem to me that having a holy shrine in your empire is not "giving people their free will" but endorsing the religion enough so as to profit form the wealth/culture/science coming from the holy shrine. At the very least it seems to be allowing the religion's established churched enough free reign to get your share of the money. It would be a bit cynical coming from Cassiel to try to enlight people but at the same time profit from the money of conquered shrines.
The holy shrine is clearly linked not to the religion in itself but to the Established Church as there would be a big organization for helping the pilgrims, taking the tithe, raising the spreading rate of the religion...etc : those are traits that Cassiel doesn't like IMO.

My first proposal was because I can't think of any other way to leave the choice for cassiel to have the shrine removed. For me, having Cassiel profit from holy shrine is much more "unlore-ish" than Cassiel razing the holy city.
I would rather have proposed "destroy 3-4 holy shrines". but as it couldn't be done, I proposed "raze 3-4 holy cities".

If Cassiel/grigori heroes/luonnater could create a Memory of Myths building ("Museum of the Fellowship religion" or "Great Library on Kilmorph's folklore" or "Compendium on the Octopus Overlord Myths"...) in a holy city, replacing the holy shrine, and being automatically removed if conquered by somebody else, with some cool effects replacing the holyshrine effects, but not too cool, then I would have proposed something along the following terms : "own 3-4 Memory of Myths buildings"

That would honestly be a good way to do it, and very possible. Just look at the Dural Colleges for ideas. Personally, I'd just remove the holy city status, and destroy the shrine (angering all followers of the religion, of course), but that's pretty much just because of the Dural. Wild Mana doesn't have them, so it doesn't have to accommodate both.

-Religious heroes and High priests are zealots and represent clearly the established religion that Cassiel condemns : they leave your civ when you change of state religion. I think that while Cassiel is not really bothered by people following acolyte or priests, he might be bothered by the presence of representant of established church. Killing a number of those zealots may still be thematic with the grigori lore and maybe even with Cassiel.
IMO it shows that Cassiel may be not anti religious but anti "state-religion" as you target not priests/acolytes but High priests/heroes.

To me that feels more like a blind attack based on dogma (any deeply held belief can have that effect, remember). I'd rather see some ability to convert High Priests into Luonnotar units.... Convert enough and you fulfill that requirement. More representative of a reasoned crusade, and more awesome for the Grigori IMO.

-Hyborem, Brigitt, Basium, the Mithril Golem, and Mulcarn are angels/gods/avatar. I would think that if Cassiel is not in crusade against people following this or that religion, even AV, he would be much displeased to have avatar of the gods walking Erebus. Thus, for me, having the Grigori kill those guys, or at least not allowing the victory condiction while those guys are present might be accurate lorewise but I'm no expert.
---------------------------

Then this subject is closed from my part, I have given, I think, all my arguments.

I'm gonna think on ideas for another civs

This one I completely agree on. I'm not sure he'd actually have a problem with Brigit herself (due to the circumstances of her being there), but any other Angel/Demon/Avatar I could see him wanting to remove. He IS one of the architects of the compact, after all, even if he doesn't believe it went far enough.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

maybe we could add Steve Hawkins as a leader for the Grigori.

oh and Benedict as a Bannor leader. special trait: cover pedophiles

 

[hbar]

Considering the recent discussion, I think Richard Dawkins would be a better leader for a militant atheist

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah that's the one. similar names, I got confused

 

[Valkrionn]

Considering the recent discussion, I think Richard Dawkins would be a better leader for a militant atheist

I could easily see him liking the Grigori (or better, the Mechanos).

 

[hbar]

Actually, Stephen Hawking would make a better leader for the Mechanos. [/hijack]

Svartalfar: Take 7 cities on the first turn of a war dec (don't have to be on the same turn or from the same civ)

Svartalfar: Declare war on 7 civs you are at Friendly or better in diplomacy

Matzal (sp?): Capture 2 greater dragons

Elohim: Reduce the Armageddon counter from 100 to 0

And I'd like to restate my idea for a **Permanent Golden Age** when you achieve an Adventure instead of a win button.

 

[Tarquelne]

And I'd like to restate my idea for a **Permanent Golden Age** when you achieve an Adventure instead of a win button.

Will you stop if someone second's it?
I second the idea.

 

[Breez]

Valkrionn : I'll explain myself.

While I could agree with your interpretation and would decently agree with it there are 3 points you should note :

-holy cities goes to people that discover the religion. agnostic cannot discover the religion so can't have holy cities save through conquest.
I concure that the holy city aspect is I think not a problem for Cassiel.
But : it would seem to me that having a holy shrine in your empire is not "giving people their free will" but endorsing the religion enough so as to profit form the wealth/culture/science coming from the holy shrine. At the very least it seems to be allowing the religion's established churched enough free reign to get your share of the money. It would be a bit cynical coming from Cassiel to try to enlight people but at the same time profit from the money of conquered shrines.
The holy shrine is clearly linked not to the religion in itself but to the Established Church as there would be a big organization for helping the pilgrims, taking the tithe, raising the spreading rate of the religion...etc : those are traits that Cassiel doesn't like IMO.

I disagree in the aspect of Having a holy shrine doesn't FORCE the people to follow that belief. Their freewill to decide to follow or not remains open to them.

I don't see why Cassiel would have a problem with pilgrims ect spreading their beliefs. As long as the governement is not sanctioning it, it remains up to the people's individual choice. If anything destroying the shrines/cities REMOVES free will by not allowing the people to have the option of that religion.

Just my opinion tho for all thats not worth