[Development] Map Suggestions

I don't think so, terrain features are objects on the terrain surface, and only the elevation type can impact the actual shape of the surface.

I think it is possible to shape the peak features so they look like elevation changes. The ones I used during my experiments were resized ice caps. Now I now how to use Blender, so reshaping should be possible.

Gameplay wise, I think it shouldn't be that hard to implement the peak features. They basically should be impassible and when placed the tile should not provide any yield. (This should be very easy to accomplish) I think the AI can be tweaked to ignore it, as peak tiles are useless. (Except for the Incan UP)

I think changing
Code:
bool CvPlot::isPeak() const
{
    return (getPlotType() == PLOT_PEAK);
}
to
Code:
bool CvPlot::isPeak() const
{
    return (getFeatureType() == FEATURE_PEAK);
}

NEW FUNCTION
bool CvPlot::isHighland() const
{
    return (getPlotType() == PLOT_PEAK);
}
would already fix a lot of the code.
 
I'd rather introduce highlands as a plot type, and if that's not possible, making highlands a feature type is less complicated than messing with peaks.
 
Has anyone looked into the Balkans a bit more? Somehow both the course of the Danube and the extent and position of the Carpathians seem wrong to me. In particular, it's basically impossible to place Belgrade both accurately at the Danube and far enough west. But I can't really put my finger on what's wrong.
 
Last edited:
I'm think that current Danube shape provides pretty good shape of East Balkans (Romania, Bulgaria, West Ukraine), and place in West Balkans (reasonable Bosnia and Croatia)



Based on my previous suggestion, I suppose something like:

upload_2019-2-17_23-19-52.png


If we try to move Danube near Belgrade 1W (increasing Vojovodina and all Serbia), we are losing Slovenia (though we can move Triest 1W and place Lublyana instead) and most of Bosnia, Croatia is disfigured, and Belgrade will fall into BFC of Ragusa/Durres.
And I'm really don't know why Serbia should be so huge.
(some bonuses: we can allow more sane Albania, Macedonia and larger Greece)

upload_2019-2-17_23-48-32.png



Speaking about terrain and relief, I suppose something like:

- remove peak 1N from Bucharest for Ploesti and its oil. So, remove oil in Belgrade (I think, it is artifact from map upscaling)
- place instead peak 3N near Dniester, in Southern Bukovina
- remove isolated peak near Budapest, I really can't find what it can represent.
- northwestern peak may be moved 1N (to Slovakia), though it isn't necessary.

Also, legacy resources is a sort of mess.

Reference map:


- about Ploesti oil see above (move 3E1N or 3E)
- aluminium of Yugoslavia probably represents Montenegro (Nikšić industry) and SW Serbia bauxite deposites, so it should be placed in Podgorica tile (wherever it will be)
- iron of Bulgaria placed pretty okay, representing Stara Planina deposites.
- idk about copper, it can be placed everywhere in West Balkans (it representing copper age Balkan industry and supplies early Greece from gameplay point of view, I think?) I'd place it in this hill spot 1NW from Olympus.
- iron of Romania (Poiana Ruscă) and Transilvanian gold probably should be switched.


So, Balkans will look like this:

upload_2019-2-18_0-47-57.png
 
That's very detailed, thanks. But don't you think the Carpathian mountain range is still off? On your map it's as far north as the northern section of the Adriatic, but on the map it's even further north than that.
 
Hasn't the Adriatic been shortened effectively to accommodate the expansion of detail in France and Germany though. That deformation will appear somewhere and the generosity for Northern Greece to back up the gameplay of the classical period will force all the Balkans slightly north
 
That could also be the case. Maybe the mountains are alright then.
 
Could you explore how it looks by adding 3 tiles: each east of Varna, Constanta, and the horses on the Black Sea coast? I think that would be more accurate for the Balkan countries (at the expense of the Black Sea, of course). Alternatively, only the latter two (to leave Istanbul more as a peninsula)?
 
I've seen that already and didn't like it.
 
That's very detailed, thanks. But don't you think the Carpathian mountain range is still off? On your map it's as far north as the northern section of the Adriatic, but on the map it's even further north than that.
Yeah, they are absolutely off.
Actually I have been planning to post about the Carpathians for a while now.
Hasn't the Adriatic been shortened effectively to accommodate the expansion of detail in France and Germany though. That deformation will appear somewhere and the generosity for Northern Greece to back up the gameplay of the classical period will force all the Balkans slightly north
That might be one of the reasons, but actually it's the same from all directions. More on that below.
Maybe the mountains are alright then.
I very much disagree, IMO this is the weakest part of the new map by far.
Some distortion will appear on the map because of the enlarged Europe, sure.
But IMO it shouldn't appear on land tiles, and definitely not in the inner part of a continent. Preferably on some sea tiles instead.

In it's current state, Europe is enlarged in almost all directions when taking a look from the Carpathian-basin. Apart from the basin itself.
Furthermore the enlargement of the nearby areas partly happened in the expense of the basin.
Since it happened from all directions, the shape is more or less ok, but it's a fragment of it's supposed size.
Ingame Estonia and Latvia has around the same number of usable tiles as the Carpathian-basin. It's kinda insane, there is a 6-8x size diference irl.
Medieval Hungary had around 320-350.000 km2 even without it's conquests to the south of the Danube (so I'm only talking about the territory inside the Carpathian mountain range, the tiles in questions).
More than the British Isles altogether, more or less the same as France or Poland for most of the medieval ages (pre 16th century)

The most telling size is north-south direction of the region from the Baltic to the Aegen Sea.
In real life, the "height" of the Kingdom of Hungary was about as big as modern Poland in the north (up to the Baltic Sea) and the rest of the Balkans in the south.
In the original proposal, Poland is 5 tiles, the Balkans south of the Danube is 4, while Hungary is 2, with a mountain separator between Poland and Hungary.
 
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I think that Bucharest should be replaced with Targoviste, at least until the 16th century

Also I really liked Finbros map references, they are both very detailed and beautiful to look at
 
About Carpathian Basin - okay, flattenning the "Ploesti" tile seems wrong.



What about something like this:


upload_2019-2-18_10-43-56.png



Oil goes directly to Bucharest tile (or even Constanta one) - distance between Ploesti and Bucharest irrelevant in the map scale nevertheless.
Mountains are stretched north, to Bukovina tiles, Dniester is shortened. We are losing Carpathian Ruthenia with Uzhgorod, but in most games it will shadowed by Krakow and Lwiw, and we can just tune the CNM.
Hills of Stara Planina Mts. should be placed near Danube, forming Iron Gates. (Seems that hills and plains needs serious tweaks too, both for Balkan Mts and Transylvanian plateau)

Probably, we can place peak somewhere in Slovakia (1N of Budapest?) for the Tatras and western Carpathians, if it will not punish Krakow and Budapest.
 
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I think it's great idea to remove current this rocks - if I'm not mistaken there was no changes from Rhyes' version which appeared...12 years ago:)
At least now there is more space for South of Poland and probably for HRE/Austria;

P.S. By the way - have You any ideas/inspiration for Eaestern Siberia or (Russian) Far East?:)
 
@Finbros
You are running into the same problem I described above.
Can't have Budapest that far up north. It's actually more to the south than Vienna irl. Those should be on the same row ingame.
Also it would be way too close to Krakow that way.

I get that your intention is to keep a distance between Belgrade and Budapest.
But it won't work without extending the area. At least 1 row of tiles are missing, if not 2.
 
@Finbros
You are running into the same problem I described above.
Can't have Budapest that far up north. It's actually more to the south than Vienna irl. Those should be on the same row ingame.
Also it would be way too close to Krakow that way.

I get that your intention is to keep a distance between Belgrade and Budapest.
But it won't work without extending the area. At least 1 row of tiles are missing, if not 2.
Why not move Belgrad 1S, and move the bend of Danube 1W?

@Finbros I feel Slovenia is too flat, it's a mountainous country.
 
Hi all!

I'm glad to see that my river suggestions were liked! I don't want to distract from the Balkans discussion, but I've been working on my recommended changes to the resources and terrain of the Lower 48 US states, so here's what I've come up with (long post again!):

Disclaimer: I am American so personal bias might be unintentionally reflected.

I'll start with changes to the terrain and features. Firstly, I reverted my Great Lakes changes from my rivers post due to game-play reasons. I kept the coastline and mountains all the same, as I think they are pretty good representations. My main goal with the terrain changes was either to represent some unique aspect of a region, include underutilized terrain types, or make settling choices more interesting (hopefully).

North:
Spoiler North Terrain Changes :

-It was recommended for Detroit to be next to a river so it could have a Levee, so I added in a river North of where Detroit would be (and one for Toronto too). I don't like how it looks, but I don't know how else to do it.
-Added forests to New England
-Added marsh to the Upper Peninsula and Minnesota. In reality, these are sparsely populated areas dotted with lakes and bogs. I also tried out putting a forest on a Marsh (and I like it).

South:
Spoiler South Terrain Changes :

-Added three hills around the Appalachians to represent the Piedmont regions of North Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama. Also added forest to Georgia's Piedmont.
-Added two new islands tiles to represent the East Coast's barrier islands (Outer Banks and Golden Isles), which are historically significant for the shelter they provide to coastal trade.
-Moved the Florida Keys (from my previous suggestions) one tile South to better represent their location with respect to Florida.
-Represented the Mississippi River Delta with Islands.
-Added hill to Arkansas
-Moved Georgian swamp one tile South to represent the Okefenokee Swamp - this opens the possibility of settling Savannah, while still leaving the possibility of settling St. Augustine/Jacksonville.
-I decided to enlarge the 'Bayou' to extend across the southern coast. I represented the 'Bayou' with a Jungle feature on a Marsh tile. This restricts possible settling locations and adds health problems for New Orleans (if settled)
-Flood Plains added to New Orleans in order to help compensate for the two lost grassland tiles. This way, New Orleans is still an attractive city location (as it should be)
-Added Marsh base terrain in Florida to represent the Everglades. (unfortunately, there is a graphical error)

West:
Spoiler West Terrain Changes :

-Added a lot of Semidesert tiles, one of the new base terrain types with the Large Map endeavor. The new semidesert regions are bordered in red. A large column of semidesert separates the Rockies from the Great Plains, and makes that area commerce- and food-poor region.
-Added Semidesert to central Arizona, where there is more precipitation than the surrounding desert
-Added Semidesert to southern Idaho, as Boise should not be in the desert
-Changed the Great Salt Lake to a Salt Lake
-Added Moorland Hills to southern South Dakota. This is supposed to represent the "Badlands," a harsh landscape of barren rock. While a two tile representation is an exaggeration of their actual size, I think it adds character to a mostly empty plain (Also I wanted to find something to do with the new Moorland terrain).

Now on to resources! My methodology for this section was two-fold:
-First, I went down the list of resources, and, for each resource, I looked up the ranked order of US state production. For example, for Wheat, I would look up the top wheat-growing US States. For each state that produced a large amount of wheat, I would put a wheat resource in that state. If the state produced an exceptional amount of that resource, I would put two tiles within the state (such as the case of Cattle in Texas). If I got to a resource that is not particularly common in the US (such as coffee or incense), I would skip it. If there was a resource already present on the map and I could not find evidence for why it should be there, I either moved it or removed it.
-Second, I referenced this website: http://www.netstate.com/index.html, which has nice summaries of the economies of each state, including agriculture, ranching, and mining. I looked at each state and noted what that state was particularly good at, and gave that state that resource (if it didn't have it already).

I feel like this combination gives a pretty holistic approach to get the right resources in a close-enough geographic location. If a state had a notable mineral reserve (such as the Comstock Lode or the Eagle Ford Formation), I tried to put the appropriate resource as close to the correct geographic location as possible. For livestock or produce locations, I tried to place them in locations that help grow what would be major cities (Chicago, New York, etc.) and not block those cities.
The major flaw with this approach, as you may have realized, is that some states are pure juggernauts in resources and others are not. Minnesota, for example, ended up with Iron, Corn, Stone, Cows, and Pigs in only five tiles (California's pretty dense too). To fix this, I did a 'diffusion' pass over that map where I tried to spread out the resources I had placed, deleting some resources where it was just too dense.
Another flaw is that all the resources are placed on the assumption that modern-day's outputs were constant through history. I tried to combat this by looking at historical production of resources as well, but this was to a lesser extent.
One final note: when looking at the maps, they look very resource dense in some areas. I fully realize this (see disclaimer above), but I tried to keep the new resource mechanics in mind (where health and happiness resources can only provide benefits to so many cities), and the American player has a lot of ground to cover with cities. Hopefully the 5 copies of Cotton will come in useful!

Terminology:
-PC means "Post-Columbian" - any resource with this suffix spawns at a later date (such as 1600 CE)
-If I moved a resource that was already on the map, I labeled the location I moved it to with a suffix that specifies x tiles moved in y direction (for example: 1W means that I moved a resource one tile to the West)

North:
Spoiler North Resources :

-New England is relatively resource-poor compared to the other regions. This is for two reasons - the resource output of other states tends to overshadow that of the geographically small New England states, and I wanted to leave plenty of tiles available for cottage spam in the North.
(I hope my methodology explanation was thorough enough that explaining each change individually is not necessary :))

South:
Spoiler South Resources :

-While the South does produce a large portion of America's food (mostly chickens, which aren't a resource in this game anyway), I tried to stick to the theme of the South being focused on cash crops.
-I was surprised to find that Louisiana and Arkansas produces the majority of American domestic rice

Midwest:
Spoiler Midwest Resources :

-The Great Lakes have some of the largest Iron deposits in the world.

West:
Spoiler West Resources :

-Unfortunately, California produces too many things to represent on the map, so I chose the more interesting ones, such as wine and olive oil. Even still, I don't like how there's no room for cottages around San Francisco.
-The Fur in Oregon is to represent the 'Fur Trade Market.' While trappers didn't really operate much in Oregon itself, many shipped all their furs down the Columbia River, making the mouth of that river a major center for the fur trade.

Well, I think that's it! Thanks for reading and I hope this is helpful!
 
@Finbros
You are running into the same problem I described above.
Can't have Budapest that far up north. It's actually more to the south than Vienna irl. Those should be on the same row ingame.
Also it would be way too close to Krakow that way.

I get that your intention is to keep a distance between Belgrade and Budapest.
But it won't work without extending the area. At least 1 row of tiles are missing, if not 2.

My proposition was mostly for shape of Carpathians.
Budapest really should be moved 1S and Belgrade could be moved 1E, to the Iron Gates (and its current tile assigned to ancient Sirmium, now Sremska Mitrovica).

And yes, I need to review it with Central Europe added, totally forgot about Krakyw.
Why not move Belgrad 1S, and move the bend of Danube 1W?
Moving Danube 1W -> goodbye anything between Serbia and Dalmatia (and distorting Serbia or Romania), moving Belgrad 1S - goodbye Bulgaria.

P.S. By the way - have You any ideas/inspiration for Eaestern Siberia or (Russian) Far East?:)
Yes, but no time(
 
First of all great, post. I like your clear description of the changes in combination with the screenshots. And the border colors really help to get a good feeling of the geographical locations. I don't remember who introduced the idea, but kudos to that person.

I have some small remarks:

-It was recommended for Detroit to be next to a river so it could have a Levee, so I added in a river North of where Detroit would be (and one for Toronto too). I don't like how it looks, but I don't know how else to do it.
-Added forests to New England
-Added marsh to the Upper Peninsula and Minnesota. In reality, these are sparsely populated areas dotted with lakes and bogs. I also tried out putting a forest on a Marsh (and I like it).

I don't really know what I think of the rivers near Detroit. I really do like it from a gameplay perspective, but the aesthetic part is not so good. But I don't have any idea either how to do it.
I personally don't like putting forest or jungles on marshes. Marshes do have there own feature type. (They are both a terrain type and a feature type and used in combination with each other)

South:
-Represented the Mississippi River Delta with Islands.
-I decided to enlarge the 'Bayou' to extend across the southern coast. I represented the 'Bayou' with a Jungle feature on a Marsh tile. This restricts possible settling locations and adds health problems for New Orleans (if settled)
-Flood Plains added to New Orleans in order to help compensate for the two lost grassland tiles. This way, New Orleans is still an attractive city location (as it should be)
-Added Marsh base terrain in Florida to represent the Everglades. (unfortunately, there is a graphical error)

I kinda like the creativity for using the islands feature for representing the Mississippi River Delta.
I think that enlarging the Bayou effects New Orleans too much, making it bit too bad of a city for my feelings. The added flood plains will not help, because you can't work them if you settle New Orleans. (IIRC the foodplains will be removed when you settle it) I think it will even encourage settling a different city other that New Orleans, because then you can benefit from the food plains and aren't hindered as much by the Bayou.

As said above, I think that the Everglades should have the marsh feature instead of the jungle.

Now on to resources! My methodology for this section was two-fold:
[...]

When I first read you explanation I thought "O no, not again one who looks at a source and tries to put every resources he/she founds in that source on the map". But after seeing you screenshots, I changed my mind because you didn't really do that after you removed some resources. You did a good job.

In general I think you approach is good. I think in a few cases, it would be better to drift a little from accuracy and move some places around a bit. For example by readding the corn resource to Texas instead of having all in the northern midwest. I think that would be good for gameplay.

I like the fish in the Great Lakes. But I'm not sure if it is possible to build fishing boats in the cities bordering those lakes.


My first impression was "too many resources". Then I looked at it more closely and saw that it also includes some tags that represent removed resources. And I though a bit about it and I came to the conclusion that is isn't really bad if America has many resources as it is supposed to become a powerhouse. And for quite some time, there will be multiple civs contesting these resources. So my feelings now are that the amount of resources feels just about right.


San Fransisco seems really resource dense, while Los Angelos seems a bit resource poor. I think moving some resources from SF to LA would be better for gameplay. (Although it possibly sacrifises a little accuracy)
 
Hi all!

I'm glad to see that my river suggestions were liked! I don't want to distract from the Balkans discussion, but I've been working on my recommended changes to the resources and terrain of the Lower 48 US states, so here's what I've come up with (long post again!):

Disclaimer: I am American so personal bias might be unintentionally reflected.

I'll start with changes to the terrain and features. Firstly, I reverted my Great Lakes changes from my rivers post due to game-play reasons. I kept the coastline and mountains all the same, as I think they are pretty good representations. My main goal with the terrain changes was either to represent some unique aspect of a region, include underutilized terrain types, or make settling choices more interesting (hopefully).

North:
Spoiler North Terrain Changes :

-It was recommended for Detroit to be next to a river so it could have a Levee, so I added in a river North of where Detroit would be (and one for Toronto too). I don't like how it looks, but I don't know how else to do it.
-Added forests to New England
-Added marsh to the Upper Peninsula and Minnesota. In reality, these are sparsely populated areas dotted with lakes and bogs. I also tried out putting a forest on a Marsh (and I like it).

South:
Spoiler South Terrain Changes :

-Added three hills around the Appalachians to represent the Piedmont regions of North Carolina, Georgia, and Alabama. Also added forest to Georgia's Piedmont.
-Added two new islands tiles to represent the East Coast's barrier islands (Outer Banks and Golden Isles), which are historically significant for the shelter they provide to coastal trade.
-Moved the Florida Keys (from my previous suggestions) one tile South to better represent their location with respect to Florida.
-Represented the Mississippi River Delta with Islands.
-Added hill to Arkansas
-Moved Georgian swamp one tile South to represent the Okefenokee Swamp - this opens the possibility of settling Savannah, while still leaving the possibility of settling St. Augustine/Jacksonville.
-I decided to enlarge the 'Bayou' to extend across the southern coast. I represented the 'Bayou' with a Jungle feature on a Marsh tile. This restricts possible settling locations and adds health problems for New Orleans (if settled)
-Flood Plains added to New Orleans in order to help compensate for the two lost grassland tiles. This way, New Orleans is still an attractive city location (as it should be)
-Added Marsh base terrain in Florida to represent the Everglades. (unfortunately, there is a graphical error)

West:
Spoiler West Terrain Changes :

-Added a lot of Semidesert tiles, one of the new base terrain types with the Large Map endeavor. The new semidesert regions are bordered in red. A large column of semidesert separates the Rockies from the Great Plains, and makes that area commerce- and food-poor region.
-Added Semidesert to central Arizona, where there is more precipitation than the surrounding desert
-Added Semidesert to southern Idaho, as Boise should not be in the desert
-Changed the Great Salt Lake to a Salt Lake
-Added Moorland Hills to southern South Dakota. This is supposed to represent the "Badlands," a harsh landscape of barren rock. While a two tile representation is an exaggeration of their actual size, I think it adds character to a mostly empty plain (Also I wanted to find something to do with the new Moorland terrain).

Now on to resources! My methodology for this section was two-fold:
-First, I went down the list of resources, and, for each resource, I looked up the ranked order of US state production. For example, for Wheat, I would look up the top wheat-growing US States. For each state that produced a large amount of wheat, I would put a wheat resource in that state. If the state produced an exceptional amount of that resource, I would put two tiles within the state (such as the case of Cattle in Texas). If I got to a resource that is not particularly common in the US (such as coffee or incense), I would skip it. If there was a resource already present on the map and I could not find evidence for why it should be there, I either moved it or removed it.
-Second, I referenced this website: http://www.netstate.com/index.html, which has nice summaries of the economies of each state, including agriculture, ranching, and mining. I looked at each state and noted what that state was particularly good at, and gave that state that resource (if it didn't have it already).

I feel like this combination gives a pretty holistic approach to get the right resources in a close-enough geographic location. If a state had a notable mineral reserve (such as the Comstock Lode or the Eagle Ford Formation), I tried to put the appropriate resource as close to the correct geographic location as possible. For livestock or produce locations, I tried to place them in locations that help grow what would be major cities (Chicago, New York, etc.) and not block those cities.
The major flaw with this approach, as you may have realized, is that some states are pure juggernauts in resources and others are not. Minnesota, for example, ended up with Iron, Corn, Stone, Cows, and Pigs in only five tiles (California's pretty dense too). To fix this, I did a 'diffusion' pass over that map where I tried to spread out the resources I had placed, deleting some resources where it was just too dense.
Another flaw is that all the resources are placed on the assumption that modern-day's outputs were constant through history. I tried to combat this by looking at historical production of resources as well, but this was to a lesser extent.
One final note: when looking at the maps, they look very resource dense in some areas. I fully realize this (see disclaimer above), but I tried to keep the new resource mechanics in mind (where health and happiness resources can only provide benefits to so many cities), and the American player has a lot of ground to cover with cities. Hopefully the 5 copies of Cotton will come in useful!

Terminology:
-PC means "Post-Columbian" - any resource with this suffix spawns at a later date (such as 1600 CE)
-If I moved a resource that was already on the map, I labeled the location I moved it to with a suffix that specifies x tiles moved in y direction (for example: 1W means that I moved a resource one tile to the West)

North:
Spoiler North Resources :

-New England is relatively resource-poor compared to the other regions. This is for two reasons - the resource output of other states tends to overshadow that of the geographically small New England states, and I wanted to leave plenty of tiles available for cottage spam in the North.
(I hope my methodology explanation was thorough enough that explaining each change individually is not necessary :))

South:
Spoiler South Resources :

-While the South does produce a large portion of America's food (mostly chickens, which aren't a resource in this game anyway), I tried to stick to the theme of the South being focused on cash crops.
-I was surprised to find that Louisiana and Arkansas produces the majority of American domestic rice

Midwest:
Spoiler Midwest Resources :

-The Great Lakes have some of the largest Iron deposits in the world.

West:
Spoiler West Resources :

-Unfortunately, California produces too many things to represent on the map, so I chose the more interesting ones, such as wine and olive oil. Even still, I don't like how there's no room for cottages around San Francisco.
-The Fur in Oregon is to represent the 'Fur Trade Market.' While trappers didn't really operate much in Oregon itself, many shipped all their furs down the Columbia River, making the mouth of that river a major center for the fur trade.

Well, I think that's it! Thanks for reading and I hope this is helpful!
Great suggestions and very detailed but I think you might run into trouble making areas of Louisiana and Florida less valuable than Amazonia. I don't mind the aesthetic of rainforest on marsh though (Mangrove Forest). That could be used to add more visual variety to areas like the deep Amazon that are ultimately not super important to gameplay but more geographically diverse than represented on the map.

Oh and as for the Detroit/Toledo River, I'd move it to the southern side of the Detroit tile for accuracy and not being smashed up against Lake Huron.
 
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