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[Development] Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 26, 2018.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Thanks for the suggestions! I like your approach and the way you presented it, it's very easy to see what the changes are and what your reasoning for them is.

    All your proposals are very consistent, but I probably need to give them another look to make sure they are also desirable for gameplay. For food resources in particular they should encourage placement of actually major cities, so maybe they need to be rearranged a bit. City placement overall is more important than resource accuracy.

    Likewise, the semidesert terrain may be a bit too severe for cities like Denver. But on the other hand these currently get overproportionally large due to the food abundance in the plains, so it may be okay. In the same context, I probably would use the Steppe terrain here more. Not sure what to think about marsh + jungle/forest but I recently thought about something similar. It looks alright (except when the graphic glitches near the coast), I'm not sure what the gameplay effects are though.

    But in any case you have provided me with enough material to make my own revisions of North America, which I previously did not feel I had.
     
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  2. Finbros

    Finbros Chieftain

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    About Central Europe - how about this variant of city placement? (sorry, no game copy here, so I used map file)

    upload_2019-2-19_12-43-38.png

    We can get Vienna, Krakyw, Budapest and Belgrade, 4 cities in Poland (Krakyw, Warsaw, Gdansk and, e.g. Wroclaw), place for Illyrian/Dalmatian city and Thessaloniki reasonable far from Belgrade.
    (contras: we moved most of Central European cities 1E, and founding Vilnus now is a problem)
     
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  3. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    If you move the river for Detroit 1S it would look less strange, and we could say it represents the Maumee River.

    Toronto doesn't need an extra river there since we're already stertching the Ottawa River west so it touches Toronto, IIRC.

    IIRC the Great Lakes already have a fish resource in the current map. Though changing their structure in the new map might change things.
     
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  4. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Chieftain

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    That feels very american-centric; like you're focussing so much on just the American resources that you're stretching things outside to get in. Why not just put the fur in BC?
     
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  5. LacsiraxAriscal

    LacsiraxAriscal Below Settler

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    Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but how would people feel about a disappearing Lop Nur? I've been reading up on the Tarim cities recently and Lop Nur (which was way bigger than I realised) appears to have been the lifeblood of cities like Loulan. Previously I figured it was just oasis-sized, but seeing this map demonstrates pretty clearly that on the big map it's at least two or three tiles worth of lake. Thoughts?
     
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  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    The problem is that terrain looks strange when it's changed programmatically over the course of the running game, at least until it's saved/reloaded. Otherwise there's lots of stuff like that I'd like to do such as the Persian gulf coastline. Maybe it's better to use the current inland river delta, plus maybe marshes and flood plains that can disappear later. When did it disappear historically?
     
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  7. LacsiraxAriscal

    LacsiraxAriscal Below Settler

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    Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I think it's gone through a lot of phases throughout history (it was once called the Wandering Lake I believe), but it was damming projects from the 1930s onwards that doomed it, much like every other lake that met that fate.
     
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Oh that's relatively recent then. In that case it may be best to just include it. It's not like the Aral Sea shrinks in the mod either.
     
  9. Vectors

    Vectors Chieftain

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    Yes, on the south side so it can be the Maumee River. That river is about as long as Lake Michigan is 220km long which seems sufficient to be represented on the maps, and would allow either Detroit or Toledo to be major industrial powers, aided by Levees
     
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  10. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    The maps do not really take historical geography into consideration, otherwise there'd be forests on the Loess Plateau, and elephants in central China which were hunted by the Shang people.

    It will feel much more realistic WITH historical climate shift in game, though.
     
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  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    I've been looking into how EU4 models terrain, could be useful for all regions of the map. I think Drylands is a nice alternative name for Semidesert, and I am still considering to add Savanna if only for aesthetic purposes.

    Spoiler :
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    I have started collecting suggestions made in this thread in a google doc, which is here. This is a copy/paste of the content to get an idea what has been covered:
    So in my estimation the parts that haven't gotten any attention yet are:
    • Plains Canada and Northern Canada
    • Caribbean
    • South America except the Southern Cone
    • Western Europe: Iberia and France
    • Central Europe: Germany and Poland
    • Middle East: Anatolia, Caucasus, Levant, Mesopotamia
    • Maghreb
    • Western Africa
    • Central Africa (i.e. Congo etc.)
    • India
    • South East Asia
    • Siberia
    • Mongolia and Manchuria
    Personally I also think Indonesia deserves more attention.

    By the way, please don't take inclusion in the above list as explicit intent to implement every suggestion made in the linked post, it's just a collection of ideas that I find worth considering when starting to work on the map.
     
  13. AOS9001

    AOS9001 Slightly over 9000.

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    I got some thoughts on the Caribbean but first a nitpick:
    Spoiler Orinoco river :
    This river really should be flowing the other way.


    Spoiler Caribbean suggestions :
    It bugs me that presently in DOC the Caribbean doesn't get good until 1700, when the competition for these islands started a hundred years before IRL and plantation operations were already well underway by the middle of the century. This is probably something more for the resources thread but there's some other things in here too that could be on the map from the start.

    Sugars: Sugar was a huge crop grown in this region, it was the main reason why the European powers spent time on these tiny islands. Cuba and Hispaniola would get them first, as they were settled first, and then sugar would spawn on Jamaica and the two eastern islands that represent the entire Lesser Antilles (from Saint Martin down to Trinidad, all these islands grow sugar as a huge crop, you can go there today and find sugar cane just growing all over the place).

    Salt: The Bahamas didn't have a big cash crop industry, but they did have salt, so it might be worth it to add a salt and plains combo to one of the islands and make it more attractive for settle. If a highly-populated Caribbean is desirable, which I think it is, because it makes America's and Colombia's UHV goals more interesting and gives more room to late-comers in the colonization game.

    Food?: Cuba wasn't like the other islands, they grew many kinds of crops. But adding a corn or potatoes to Cuba might make it too powerful, unless you've got two cities on a 5 tile island like an absolute madman.

    Santa Catalina: There's a small archipelago off the coast of Nicaragua that belongs to Colombia (for some reason), I think there should be islands there to represent these if we're having islands all over the rest of the Caribbean.

     
  14. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Chieftain

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    Why even have the Caribbean plantation resources spawn later? As you say, competition started shortly after they were discovered. Some things, like horses and wine in the Americas, make sense to have spawn later, but some spawns seem to occur around when those places would be settled anyways.
     
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  15. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    Mainly to avoid incentivizing the Mayans or Aztecs to settle them. Maybe make them appear once an Old World Civ discovers the Americas?
     
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  16. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Chieftain

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    I think the Maya or Aztec deserve those resources if they can expand that much. It's difficult to get that big as them, anyways.
     
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  17. AOS9001

    AOS9001 Slightly over 9000.

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    I celebrate the end of finals by thinking about resources in a mod of a mod for a 14 year old game. This post is for New Guinea and eastern Indonesia!
    Spoiler Eastern Indonesia and New Guinea :
    My image speaks mostly for itself but I will elaborate more in text.
    Eastern Indonesia: I switched things around and added where I think some later cash crops should spawn. This will create some desirable city spots in Timor/Flores and western New Guinea, and make the Moluccas not as much an obvious choice.

    Gold: moved to Sulawesi from New Guinea, because as far as I've read there seems to have been gold there at one point.
    Spices: replaced the incense in Timor because it's right in the spice islands area where Portugal and the Netherlands will fight in, maybe the incense can be moved to Java or Sumatra?
    Pearls: moved from Moluccas to Aru because I found a reference to pearling in Aru's waters but not for anywhere in the Moluccas. I could have overlooked it though, there's a lot of islands in the Moluccas.
    Coffee: Coffee is a big-time crop in both Timor and the Flores islands, so you could have it spawn in the 19th century on either tile.
    Tobacco: Aru island grows tobacco as a cash crop these days, it could spawn in the 19th century
    Whales: I didn't change the whales, I did some digging and found out they do actually hunt pilot whales in that area. Fun fact!
    Rubber: It's not on the map but Indonesia became a major source of rubber by the 20th century, I don't know if it's scripted to spawn or not?

    New Guinea: An underrated island full of resources, wildlife, and interesting human cultures, but sadly not historically relevant... But I made changes here to open some new viable colony spots.

    Pig: Like the picture says, pigs are an important food on this island, if not overly abundant, I thought they were worth adding. Also I changed their tile to a hill so you don't have too much food.
    Cotton: German settlers on New Britain/New Pomerania brought cotton at the end of the 19th century, the only reference to gems I found on the island were possible crystal deposits far inland, about 1S and 1E of the copper (under the peak). I decided to replace the gems with cotton here.
    Rainforest: This will let you found Rabaul, could be nice if you're playing as Britain, Germany, or Japan. It'll give you a choice between Rabaul and grabbing the copper on Bougainville (I think that's the island that tiles is supposed to represent) or Port Morseby and... uh, nothing really. Hmm, this needs some more work.
    Mamberamo river: It's a pretty big river on the island, why not include it?
    Other resources: New Guinea produces coffee, rubber, seafood, and sweet potatoes too, but I didn't really want to add these because it might make the island too strong, when historically it was very isolated until the last half-century.

    In conclusion this opens up a few new competing city spots on New Guinea. You have Rabaul and Port Morseby in the east, and in the west you can have Jayapura on the copper (or 1W of the copper), a city 1E of the sugar, or a city 1N of the sugar, or a city ON the sugar... You've got options now!



    Personally, I'm not quite satisfied with this, it could use some tweaking. But no one else has touched on this area so why not try my hand at it?
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    Like coffee and tobacco, rubber was introduced to Indonesia. So no rubber has been placed because the map has the initial game resource distribution. If you want to suggest locations just go ahead.
     
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  19. AOS9001

    AOS9001 Slightly over 9000.

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    Alright, Indonesia and New Guinea 2.0 for your consideration:
    Spoiler It keeps happening :

    1. New Guinea
    -River added, pigs added, and gold moved as previously noted (gold is produced in western New Guinea today but historically it seems to have been in Sulawesi)
    -cocoa and cotton should spawn in 1800 or 1850
    -as the map notes, to make Port Morseby a more appealing location, you can add another food like (sweet) potatoes, or a luxury resource like coffee, or an industrial resource like rubber to the two circled tiles with ? on them. IRL there is oil (and in greater quantity, natural gas) under that marsh. Do as you please with that information.

    2. Moluccas, Aru, Timor, and Flores
    -pearls moved down to Aru and spice replaced incense because muh history
    -coffee on Timor and maybe Moluccas should spawn in 1650 or 1700
    -cocoa and tobacco should spawn in 1800 or 1850
    -in the Moluccas, you can have coffee, cocoa, or a banana because that's what they grow along with cloves and nutmeg today
    -on Sulawesi, the cocoa should be in the south but I think it's more aesthetically pleasing to have it up north, spreads things out more
    -on Timor/Flores, you can have the coffee on either tile and it'll work well



    3. Borneo and Malaya
    -added rubber to be discovered with appropriate tech, Malaysia produces lots of rubber these days
    -cocoa should spawn in 1800 or 1850

    4. Java
    -two sugars should spawn in 1650 or 1700, Java rivaled the Caribbean centers for sugar production in the 18th century
    -there should also be a cocoa in Java if we wanted to be accurate, but I think there's enough resources already

    5. Sumatra
    -cocoa should spawn in 1800 or 1850
    -added two rubber resources because Sumatra produces most of Indonesia's rubber



    Concluding thoughts:
    I can't help but feel I went a little overboard, especially with the cocoa, but Indonesia produces a lot of this stuff these days... there's a reason the Japanese went after it. I'm glad palm oil isn't a resource in this game because then ti'd be on every remaining empty tile!
     
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  20. TJDowling

    TJDowling Chieftain

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    Nice. I'm just noticing there is only one iron in Indonesia and it's not on one of the big three islands. Unlike the current map. While that may be accurate I'm not sure it's good for gameplay, should we add iron to Sumatra, Java or Borneo?
     

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