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[Development] Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 26, 2018.

  1. FraggleJock

    FraggleJock Chieftain

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    I hadn't noticed that about Iron but actually think it's a good thing. It's Indonesia's iron with it way over there not a convenient spot to poach for anyone but Indonesia. There is copper on Borneo for early unit types and production and if the choice is made not to colonise Sulawesi then you have to work your culture hard to get your iron.

    It also possibly keeps it out of the Dutch flip zone so Indonesia can mount a defence with crossbowmen!
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  2. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    You might be right, bronze is probably sufficient for the first bit before you colonize the rest of the archipelago. Though it was definitely a nice hammer boost for an otherwise hammer poor region. And also I'm not sure a Sulawesi resistance is the most historically reasonable possibility. Then again, definitely not an expert on Indonesia.
     
  3. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    I managed to rebuild part of Ozqar's Africa proposal from a while back... because I thought it was a really good jumping off point. Now I basically started off by following ozqar's procedure from this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/development-map-suggestions.632861/page-2#post-15142218

    I believe the second step should read "Then I took a 9x8 square starting at 70,16 and shifted that 1S" Rather than "53,70" Because that seemed to replicate what ozqar did.

    After doing this I noticed that Angola was pretty cramped and Namibia's barren landscape unnecessarily large. Thinking that Namibia is not super important to the gameplay I figured I might expand the plains of Angola a little bit and compress the desert so I took a 6x8 square starting at 68,23 and moved it one South. I think this also better lines up a few things and improves the shape of the Namib/Angola/Congo coast. This is what I ended up with:

    Spoiler :

    Angola Bigger.png


    I also added the Okavango Delta as I suggested before, just with the delta point down this time. I think it's better placement. Problems? It occurs to me that Angola's southern border is a bit too far south compared to the Zambezi but even if I give that bottom row of tiles back to Namibia I think the shape is still better and Angola is left in a slightly better spot considering the cramped space.

    Also try to ignore the resources. I built this on my resource spawn map which has crazy numbers of resources.
     
  4. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Hey @TJDowling, great that you're picking this up :)

    I never got to doing this myself, but when I was working on the map back then, my impression was that the continent was quite distorted. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was shortened North-South. Back then I intended to compare the game map with a blank map (ie, just the outline) of an African map using the same projection type, to make sure. If you're up for it, that might be a good reference to continue working on it!

    Good luck!
     
  5. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    Yeah, it definitely seems that way. Before the changes to Southern Africa it's quite compressed. And Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia appear noticeably compressed (wider than they are long).
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I would argue Egypt to Sudan are stretched east-west more than they are compressed north-south.
     
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  7. MacAurther

    MacAurther Chieftain

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    Well hello!

    Today I'll be talking about the Canada and Mexico regions. I'll try to keep this post short and sweet! (if possible)

    (Methodologies are the same as in these posts: first and second)

    Canada:
    Provinces and Territories:
    Notes: The way this map was projected, the Provinces of Canada are proportionally larger than the territories, which, for game play reasons, is probably best.
    Spoiler Provinces and Territories :

    East:

    Central:

    West:

    East:

    West:



    Terrain Changes:
    -Lots of minor river changes. Due to where the Province boundaries ended up, lots of lakes and rivers were shifted.
    -I also tried employing the 'Moorland' terrain (which yields 1 food) to be a sort of intermediate terrain type between 2 yield terrain (grassland/plains) and 0 yield terrain (tundra). I like this for a few reasons: 1) visually, it adds a dulled green in between the luscious green of grasslands and the grey of tundra, 2) as for game play, it gives Canada a little bit more (semi) useful terrain in certain areas (Great Lakes region and Midwest), as well as make some areas slightly worse (North of Montreal). My methodology for choosing where the Moorland should go was looking at an average temperature map of Canada and placing it along the band of 0 to 2 degrees Celsius.
    -Also added in Semidesert terrain to blend into my American terrain changes. There is only one semidesert tile without access to a river, so all this really does is take away the river gold bonus, which I think is good for the Canadian plains region.
    -I tried more marsh experiments - this time: Marsh + Ice!
    Spoiler Terrain Changes :

    Bodies of Water changes:


    Terrain Changes:




    Resources:
    -I threw in some 'suggested' city locations this time, so it's easier to see how the food resources line up with historical city locations. I also tried to keep the resources at least 1 tile north of the American Midwest border, so Canada has a better chance at grabbing them over America.
    -PC means Post-Colombian
    -Sorry for the overlapping labels
    -With these resources, Canada should have 5-7 decent cities to work with.
    Spoiler Canada Resources :

    East Resources:
    -I think I may have found a solution to providing Detroit a river while not looking that bad? Maybe?

    West Resources:



    Mexico
    States:
    -It's probably not worth the effort to outline states when they're this small. I couldn't even fit all 31 states.
    Spoiler Mexico States :


    Terrain:
    -Continuing with my creation of a buffer zone of Semidesert in between plains and desert. This minimally affects the Mexican flatland semideserts, but I believe Mexican farms built on semidesert hills will have 1 fewer food than normal. Something to consider.
    -No river changes! They looked good to me
    Spoiler Mexico Terrain :


    Resources:
    -This was a bit tricky, since Mexico was already so resource-dense. I kept in mind that the Aztecs and Maya have to use the same land prior to Mexico, so most of my changes were only PC resources.
    -The iron in Chihuahua should probably be PC, so the Aztecs don't get it, but without it, Mexico would have no iron, which would be problematic (unless you want to force them to trade for it)
    -Other than than, I wanted to make sure Mexico had a few extra health resources, and wanted to represent their large sugar and banana industry of modern times.
    Spoiler Mexico Resources :


    That's it! Thanks for reading!
     
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  8. hnrysml

    hnrysml Warlord

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    I just noticed with Africa that even on the new map the great lakes barely resemble their true shapes, Lake Tanganyika and Lake Malawi have almost the same surface area, the former slightly larger. On the map the former is two tiles, the latter three. I suggest that Lake Victoria, Lake Tanganyika, and Lake Malawi be the foundation of the design for the rift valley region. The other lakes should be one tile, with the exception of Lake Turkana, and they can fit around the initial three I mentioned. I'm sorry but I can't make a visual suggestion at the moment.
     
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  9. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Those are nice additions - I'd suggest just some minor changes:
    - The southernmost tile of the Baja Peninsula should also be semidesert, while the the northwest tile of Sinaloa (ie, two south of the deer) should be forested plains, not semidesert
    - I can't tell from the pics - but are the Yucatan and the north Campeche tiles rainforests or jungles? Yucatan at least should be rainforest, since the most important city in the area is right tile (Mérida); the north Campeche tile should also have rainforests to be readily settleable (for the city of Campeche). There were also important Mayan cities in the area, just to clarify that the rainforests should be there from the start, not only in post-colonial times. Conversely, the south tile of Campeche (where you added the sugar) can be a jungle, as it's sparsely populated until today.
    - The iron was indeed meant to be only postcolonial, same as the sugar and banana. Likewise, the tile northwest of Mexico City should spawn a horse at that point.
     
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  10. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    Sweeping terrain changes for Africa: suggested of course. Based on my previous Africa map.

    I mostly focused on terrain as well as minor tweaks of the Great lakes. Things I might look at but didn't look at; The shape of West Africa. It looks good but it also looks a bit small. Particularly Nigeria seems like it could use a bit more space. Again, ignore the resources.

    Horn of Africa:
    Spoiler :

    Added some semi-desert in Eritrea, Somalia and Northern Kenya... Though you'll see Kenya has changed a bit in a later image. Added semi-desert for the Sahel region. Perhaps the floodplains of the Nile should be adjusted in that area as its gone from desert 0 food to semi-desert +1 food adjacent to river. Added grasslands in the Northwest of Ethiopia. Also grasslands and plains in Southern Somalia.
    Horn of Africa Terrain.png


    Great Lakes:
    Spoiler :

    Greater detail on the grasslands/plains added to Somalia. The final cut of the Kenyan semi-desert after moving Lake Turkana 1E and lengthening it to 2 tiles. I added a lot of grasslands in the Great Lakes area but was not as generous as ozqar's proposal. I lengthen Lake Tanganyika by 1 tile and moved Lake Rukwa 1NE. I think this placement is much better in relation to the other lakes. I added coastal grasslands and mixed forest/rainforest to represent the East African Coastal Forest region.
    Great Lakes Terrain.png


    Southern Africa:
    Spoiler :

    Again coastal grassland and mixed forest/rainforest. Added grasslands for the Central highland in South Africa perhaps it would be better if those flat tiles were changed to hills or perhaps Moorland is appropriate here but I don't know for sure. Changed the SW coast of South Africa to plains to better reflect its Mediterranean climate. Added semidesert stretching from Angola, through Nambia, Botswana and Northwest South Africa. Added Steppe through Namibia, Botswana and North Central South Africa. Changed a good chunk of desert in Angola/Botswana to plains to represent savanna. Added a smattering of forest throughout Zimbabwe.
    Southern Africa Terrain.png


    Congo River Basin:
    Spoiler :

    I added a quite generous amount of grasslands to Angola as it has always been a quite agriculturally rich region. I lost track of what I changed so I've just outlined all the grasslands in the Congo basin. Maybe it could be balanced with some more rainforest or jungle but I think it's okay. I deleted some swamps that I could find no explanation for replaced with jungles and rainforests. Added some plains with no trees for a relatively arid region spanning Angola/Southeast Congo and Zambia. Added a mix of Forest and Rainforest across Angola, Congo and Zambia. A small chunk of semidesert in Angola's SW.
    Central Africa Terrain.png


    Central Sahara:
    Spoiler :

    More of the Sahel. Mostly aesthetic because without a river semi-desert is the same as desert. Changed a chunk of plains to grassland and jungle to rainforest. I think this is okay because no civs really settle here until the late game anyway.
    Eastern Sahara Terrain.png


    Niger River:
    Spoiler :

    More of the Sahel. Again the floodplains should probably be adjusted considering the slight food bump of the semidesert but I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe take the floodplains off a couple of the outside corner tiles? Reduces the food but doesn't sacrifice the aesthetic appeal. Some slight changes to the plains and jungles, adding grasslands and rainforest instead, especially in Nigeria.
    Niger River Terrain.png


    Finally, Northwest Africa:
    Spoiler :

    Added semi-desert between the Mediterranean zone and the Sahara. Might provide a slight food bump in Algeria? Extending the Sahel to Senegal, expect a modest food bump.
    Northwest Africa Terrain.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  11. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    West Africa Changes!

    This will probably be controversial as I'm not even sure how I feel about it but parts of it are good for sure. Parts of it are good. Parts maybe not so good.

    So I noticed that there isn't a lot of space in West Africa. Nigeria seems small. Some very important early European colonies are very small. Additionally some things just don't line up.

    1. So first thing I did was move the Senegal River 1N so it is between Senegal and Mauritania. This lines it up with Cape Verde and the Northernmost point of the Niger as it should be. I also changed the course a bit at the end so it points East. I added the Gambia River since we can't represent the country might as well represent its river. (Perhaps I moved the Gambia and added the Senegal... not sure actually)

    2. Next, I moved what I believe is the Volta river 1E so that it is in the middle of Ghana not Cote D'Ivoire. I also moved the Bandama River accordingly and made it longer. It is the longest river in Cote D'Ivoire and you can find the capital there.

    These are the probably uncontroversial changes.

    3. Now for the big-gering. I moved 14x9 section starting at 53,36 (which is the coastal tile 1S of where the new Senegal river meets the sea). I moved this section 1S. Giving a bit more room to play with West Africa's borders.

    4. I moved one section 5X3 starting at (I think) 65,34 1N. This gives Nigeria a bit better balance between the Northern arid region and the Southern rainforests. I fixed all the wonky rivers. Sao Tome is now in a better position relative to the mainland.

    5. I added one land tile south of Sierra Leone and one NW of the Gambia. I think it better reflects the shape but that's up for debate.

    6. I shifted the Northern curve of the Niger River to the East a little bit.

    Potential Problems:
    -We are now within two diagonal ocean tiles of South America.
    -The Niger River Delta looks kind of weird. Should I extend on land tile to the East? Or delete that piece of land sticking out? Or leave it?
    -Nigeria is taller than it is wide now. I thought about moving 12or13X6 square starting at 54,36 1W to give more lateral space but it could be too much and distort the shape too much. Perhaps I'll try it see what the result is. We'd still be within two diagonal tiles of South America even with a move 1W.

    Anyway, here it is:
    Spoiler :

    West Africa Shape and Terrain.png
     
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  12. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    @Leoreth Is it possible to just add a column of ocean tiles for the Atlantic and two (or even three) columns for the Pacific?
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    No.
     
  14. TJDowling

    TJDowling Prince

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    One other option is to look at a scenario that would narrow Egypt/Sudan since we have established that they are possibly too wide.

    EDIT: Yeah, I took a look at Egypt and I think this falls again under a problem of perspective. Just by shifting the Western Egyptian border 1E (which is much more accurate in relation to Greece/Crete to be honest) I'm able to shift the borders of all the countries and I think they are all sitting in a better position now. The only one that maybe suffers is South Sudan... but I think Ethiopia is more important. Also, after looking at it I don't see much point in moving the Nile 1W, it looks good where it is but could use some more twists and turns as per ozqar's earlier proposal. Also maybe extending or moving the Libyan "bump" 1W to line up with the Western coast of Greece could be benefitial but I'm not passionate about it either. Libya is very wide... but I think that has to do with it mirroring an expanded Europe.

    I think expanding Western Africa 1S as I did before is still potentially a good idea, even at the expense of the Cameroonian coast as it gives a bit more space for colonies in a historically crowded region.

    Spoiler :
    Sahara Borders.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  15. Bautos42

    Bautos42 Warlord

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    Just for clarification, I assume you don't want that to further enlarge the map because of performance. From a technical standpoint, this can be done quite easily. I did that sort of thing all the time when creating this map and could do it again within a few minutes.
     
  16. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Yes, my question was from a technical point of view, thanks @Bautos42!

    @Leoreth, could we discuss the pros and cons? It might be worth it. From my point of view, having the continents a bit farther apart would be beneficial (no culture overlap, not seeing the other coastline when exploring, etc). I think the changes in the continent shapes we've had so far are positive and should keep them. Do you agree on those points? If yes, then expanding the oceans could be a good solution.

    Are there cons? Well, I imagine (but don't know) that expanding the oceans wouldn't be heavy on performance, but tell me if it's not the case. Also, if we agree that this won't bring us to expand continents any further then we can not be worried about never-ending expansion of the map. Do you have different concerns or reasons not to do this? Perhaps we could find a way to address them?
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    We have not established that, the observation has been made that Egypt is wide but that it is too wide is interpretation. As I suggested above, Egypt is deliberately wide both in this map and the current map because the Nile is an actually important area of the map that many civs interact with (Egypt, Greece, Rome, Byzantium, Arabia, Turkey) so adequate space needs to be given to it to reflect that. The Nile is both more relevant than the Sahara at whose expense it was expanded and than Senegal/Cameroon or whatever place's expansion would be justified by its size.

    True. I took the question to mean if it was possible that such an enlarged map would be included into the mod.

    I am not that concerned with performance but rather with the advantages we get from operating under constraints. It can always be argued to increase the map by 1-2 columns or so. If you want to talk pros and cons, what are the pros that justify it? Accurate Senegal or Cameroon? Not worth it for these fringe parts of the map.

    First of all, the goal here is creating a map with sufficient verisimilitude but more so to facilitate gameplay, are these parts of the map really important for that? Also, why not fix the shape of the continent by adjusting other parts and possibly shrinking their size? I find it very hard to imagine a scenario where I would see a justification in changing the map size and it definitely cannot come from such parts of the map as the African west coast or Paraguay.
     
  18. AOS9001

    AOS9001 Slightly over 9000.

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    Speaking of adjusting continents and landforms, I've got some thoughts on Iberia to share now.

    As mentioned some time ago, Iberia is looking a little weird. I did an overlay and found out that it's been quite vertically compressed (or horizontally stretched).
    Spoiler proofs :


    This also indicates Lisboa should be one tile south of the current spawn but that could be a problem against Santiago/La Coruna's culture. Furthermore I believe an additional tile should be added to the southwest corner of Iberia. As you can see above, Portugal's border extends beyond Douro river, but half-tiles aren't possible in Civ IV, so adding a tile to the southeast corner makes up for this theoretical lost land. Portugal actually would lose a tile of territory between the current map and this one, which seems to be the opposite idea of a big map. No matter what one does Iberia is still going to look funny because of the compression, so I argue this from a gameplay perspective.

    Now, onto resources.
    Spoiler resources :
    My presentation skills are pretty low-tier so I decided to steal a page from the guys above and indicate country borders. Geographically, Iberia is looking fine, the only landform changes I made was the extra tile in the southwest and adding another hill to Portugal, along with some forests. Finding forestry information on Spain before the 1970s was difficult, so I didn't change any of Spain's forests.

    Spain:
    -I added a marble in the north, out of Madrid's fat cross, to help with Santiago/La Coruna/Oviedo's lackluster production. Spain produces lots of marble and granite.
    -I added olives to represent the citrus industry on the Mediterranean coast, and because Spain is the number 1 olive product exporter in the world.
    -I added a corn to Andalusia because lots of food is grown there and because I personally think it's silly that Spain of all countries doesn't have any New World resource spawn in it.
    -I was skeptical about the gold but I did some reading and found out Spain was producing 65% of the EC's gold by the 1980s. Who would have known?

    Portugal:
    Ah, my favorite civ to play, so take everything I say about Portugal with a grain of salt.
    -I moved wine to the north. Before Roman times, wine was mostly produced in the south, but it moved north after the Romans came and spread their culture and technology. Since most of the this game takes place after the Romans, I thought wine fit better on the Coimbra tile.
    -Iron spawns on the hill NE of Lisboa as usual
    -Horses moved one south because southwestern Iberia produced very fine horses, and they look better on plains
    -corn spawns where the wine used to be in 1600
    -I added an olive because citrus and olives alike are grown in the south of Portugal, but this might be too much for a country that's supposed to colonize and take other people's resources.



    Final notes:
    -Did you know Portugal and Spain both operate uranium mines? I didn't add any uranium since these two countries can find it elsewhere, but if you want some late game fun, put a uranium on the tile east of Lisboa and another one northeast of that.
    -Spain is a major producer of minerals and supplies much of Europe's mineral resources, including copper, mercury, and more. If Spain is found to be lacking in production beyond Madrid (which it shouldn't be with that marble up north), remember this.
    -I still think the Azores tile should have sugar or wine but Ponta Delgada with a feitora is okay as it is
     
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  19. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    Was your overlay using the Robinson projection? That's what this map is based on.

    Also, I'd disagree that Iberia looks stretched at all. Your own image shows that it matches to within a tile everywhere. It's just a tiny bit further west.
     
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  20. AOS9001

    AOS9001 Slightly over 9000.

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    Oh wow, I didn't mention I stretched that overlaid image out significantly to make it fit. That was me trying to fit the map Iberia to our game's Iberia. Without editing, Portugal's coast was two tiles east, and the northern coast was one tile south.
     
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