[Development] Map Suggestions

[Vera]

I would much prefer technology to mitigate or even improve over time currently undesirable features. In a larger map with much more swamp, rainforest and dense tropical forest (jungle), there should be a way to represent both the human encroachment on these ecosystems e.g. rainforest deforestation, and the limited draining of wetlands, without it being the only prudent decision to immediately chop all these features the moment it is possible to, with the only exceptions being planning for your one national park or playing as Congo. Even though sadly this would seem to be a realistic representation of things, in actuality habitat destruction of said ecosystems is an ongoing process that is push and pull, with massively increasing public sentiment against it. However in a recent game as Indonesia, for example, apart from my one national park city the moment i researched microbiology there is only a benefit to chopping all rainforest.

An interesting suggestion would be to give these features a benefit similar to how coast benefits the solar panels improvement: plus one food to adjacent tiles (but the rainforest tiles themselves have a heavy malus such as -2 food), with a maximum of +1 (no stacking). This would encourage the player to create a realistic model of land usage where forest ecosystems become smaller and fragmented over time, but there is obvious value in keeping them around.

When I played as Arabia I found solar panels extremely useless. It's a very late technology, and by that time the number of possible specialist slots are plenty and it never worth to work these tiles even in costs.
So I guess solar plants should somehow turn more desirable to build.

And about the swamp and rainforest/jungle, yes we can say that they aren't any good at the moment. The point is valid. But at least jungles can be cleared while swamps are always there which isn't realistic at all. I mean we have the technique to drain them if there's a will.

 

[merijn_v1]

One of the main purposes of swamps is to create (permanent) spots that cannot be used. Allowing players to drain swamps would go against that purpose.

 

[Vera]

One of the main purposes of swamps is to create (permanent) spots that cannot be used. Allowing players to drain swamps would go against that purpose.

There's ice and there's desert without water. Those are realistically barren lands, but the concept of non-removable swamps is just not logical.
As far as I remember they are mostly in the Congo and Amazon basins, and if draining requires late techs it would not have a serious effect.

 

[Derdan]

It would be cool to be able to remove city-adjacent marshes via Great Engineer or some expensive project. Tiles with marshes removed could still remain unproductive in places such as Siberia by being tundra underneath. It would also mean it's often not worth removing small (1-2) patches of marshes.

 

[Temujin8k]

There's ice and there's desert without water. Those are realistically barren lands, but the concept of non-removable swamps is just not logical.
As far as I remember they are mostly in the Congo and Amazon basins, and if draining requires late techs it would not have a serious effect.

I think allowing draining of swamps and marshes would cause areas where its population growth is historically severely hindered by the their abundant presence to suddenly spike in growth--especially in the Congo basin and the Amazon--which should not be the case. I don't think it should be easily accessible, even with a later tech.

 

[Xfactor]

You all forgot the Russian swamps in Siberia, those are a nono in my book to be drained , swamps are in general ok for me , but a later tech can possibly "remove" the unhelthines from them.

 

[Vera]

I think allowing draining of swamps and marshes would cause areas where its population growth is historically severely hindered by the their abundant presence to suddenly spike in growth--especially in the Congo basin and the Amazon--which should not be the case. I don't think it should be easily accessible, even with a later tech.

The population boom in the Congo basin is actually real, check the demographic changes of the DRC.

 

[Vera]

You all forgot the Russian swamps in Siberia, those are a nono in my book to be drained , swamps are in general ok for me , but a later tech can possibly "remove" the unhelthines from them.

I guess draining the swamps in Siberia is a different story. That's permafrost, the only reason it's a swamp cause everything but the top layer of the earth stays frozen year-round. Draining wouldn't help.
But even if it would be cleared, the climate won't make it any better. In Civ4 terms, they would most likely be tundra, which has no use at all.

 

[Vera]

So in order to prevent this de-swamping causing serious changes in balances, the new land after draining could be relatively useless by default. I mean it must be better than the swamp was, but it can be less productive than a normal grassland/plain. Similar to semi-desert in values.

 

[Tab911]

So in order to prevent this de-swamping causing serious changes in balances, the new land after draining could be relatively useless by default. I mean it must be better than the swamp was, but it can be less productive than a normal grassland/plain. Similar to semi-desert in values.

In that case, draining swamps in the Amazon and Congo basin would result in... desert?
I don't think its a good idea to add new tile types specifically for one purpose.
When looking at the board, there are very few swamp tiles which ought to be developed, and most of those are scripted to flip at appropriate times anyway. While it is true that we have the technology capable of draining swamps, most of the swamps on the map represent vast areas of largely useless land, even today. The draining of which would be unrealistic if the player had any capacity to do so.
Congo's massive population growth is not due to swamp draining and settlement in the basin, but rather, the effects of urbanization. Suggesting map changes is the best way to get swamp land converted if you can make the case for its use.

 

[Bu77Trout]

I know it's all a convoluted abstraction, but the way I see it, the food bonus resources on the map represent productive areas that feed a city/cities, and/or areas where those goods were important to trade or industry, and, finally for flavour: making sure the map and game comes to life for the player. I think things like poultry and guinea pigs, for most of history, represent very small-scale and subsistence agriculture, and so would be hard to fit into this framework, but if they could be included would contribute to this flavour. On the other hand, honey is one of the oldest trade goods but, if included, would be the same resource practically everywhere, and wouldn't contribute much to the feel of the game at all.

For more flavour on HONEY how about resource variant MAPLE SYRUP?

As far draining swamps goes I can see how it is desirable in certain locations but would be very undesirable in other locations. I think the current mode of hard-coding certain swamps disappearing at certain times in history is probably sufficient (that said usually they exist in the first place to prevent settlement rather than disappear to encourage settlement). Either way maybe the discussion should be expanded about where and when other swamps should disappear in order to encourage settlement. We've also added new terrains that address some of these issues of pre/post-industrial productivity (see Moorland).

 

[Vera]

In that case, draining swamps in the Amazon and Congo basin would result in... desert?
I don't think its a good idea to add new tile types specifically for one purpose.
When looking at the board, there are very few swamp tiles which ought to be developed, and most of those are scripted to flip at appropriate times anyway. While it is true that we have the technology capable of draining swamps, most of the swamps on the map represent vast areas of largely useless land, even today. The draining of which would be unrealistic if the player had any capacity to do so.
Congo's massive population growth is not due to swamp draining and settlement in the basin, but rather, the effects of urbanization. Suggesting map changes is the best way to get swamp land converted if you can make the case for its use.

As I said, in values. You can modify productivity of each plot, it doesn't have to look like desert...

I also haven't claimed that the population boom is thanks to the disappearance of swamps. Most people live outside of that area. It has little to do with urbanization anyway, but that would be a very different topic that would contribute little to this conversation.
All I said that the population boom (which would likely happen at the accurate time since the required tech is pretty late) is real.

 

[Vera]

Here are my more detailed suggestions about guinea pigs.

There should be several of this resource in the Andean region. They should provide some food and with the South American pagan shrines some happiness as well. Once Christianity arrives the happiness factor could disappear. (Although TBH catholicism adapted to the local customs, thus guinea pigs are still used in religious festivities, but the significance is way less than it was before.)
After the UN comes into play (or at a fix time, probably around 1960) guinea pigs resources should appear in the Subsaharan region. There were FAO-based programmes to popularize guinea pig husbandry. It is not very well known, but by now it's one of the most important farm animals, especially in the DRC. Given the actual spread, I would suggest to cover the regions of current Nigeria, Cameroon, DRC, Tanzania and Kenya with this resource.

(I tried to check the map to give more punctual suggestions, but I simply cannot open it, my worldbuilder crushed every time. 3.19 version BTS, I am clueless.)

 

[stormogulen]

And now a few ideas on Mongolia and its surroundings.

Spoiler East :

-The mountain areas between Ulaanbaatar and Chita are generally in the taiga biome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Baikal_conifer_forests) so could be changed to moorland+forest or similar instead of steppe.

-I think coal is more relevant for Mongolia than rare earths (the current RE position seems fine for the 'Sharyn Gol' coal mining area), so could be switched in. Another possible alternative with potentially larger gameplay implications is adding copper near Erdenet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdenet_Mining_Corporation).

-Turned Buryatian sheep into a cow. According to Wikipedia cattle-breeding is the most important form of agriculture in Buryatia nowadays, and it seems that the Buryats were primarily cattle-breeders historically as well.

-Added fur in Barguzin area, famous source of sable fur.

-The amount of desert around eastern Mongolia currently seems a bit excessive IMO (the area tends to be mostly classified as steppe on vegetation maps), so more semidesert/steppe could make sense.

Spoiler West :

-Changed a desert hill to steppe for easier access from Mongolia to Dzungaria and the Dzungarian Gate (the major historical access point between the eastern and western parts of the Eurasian steppe).

-There could be gold somewhere in the Altai/Tian Shan area (the marked tile is somewhat arbitrary). Both the Sakas and the Xiongnu obtained much gold in the area. Probably not too relevant for the current set of civs though.

-The Mongolian Great Lakes depression is dry and sparsely vegetated so could have some desert terrain.

Spoiler Lake Khanka :

-And somewhat unrelatedly: north of Vladivostok there is Lake Khanka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Khanka) which seems large enough to be includable.

 

[stormogulen]

Today it's Caucasus.

Spoiler Caucasus :

-Added marsh at the river Terek which has a huge swampy delta (larger than the Danube delta according to some sources).

-Extended the Pontic-Caspian steppe into Dagestan.

-I'm not really sure if this is a good idea, but I tried moving a peak one tile west to the marked location. It can probably be thought of as the Lesser Caucasus range (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Caucasus). With this configuration we prevent settling a tile which reaches a ton of resources (including double olives and deer). As a bonus we can get another tile for the agriculturally rich Caspian area of Iran.

-Marked a few suggested resource spawns. Lots of other possible choices here, like rice in Iran or silk/tea/saffron in Azerbaijan.

On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about the stone resource next to Babylon. While there is some local limestone, southern Mesopotamia overall has very poor stone resources, which was a serious concern in ancient history (along with the lack of metals and timber). I have no real clue on gameplay considerations, but a cow could be a reasonable replacement I think.

 

[Leoreth]

The tile the peak moves to is Tabriz, isn't it?

 

[Bu77Trout]

Today it's Caucasus.

Spoiler Caucasus :

View attachment 600258

-Marked a few suggested resource spawns. Lots of other possible choices here, like rice in Iran or silk/tea/saffron in Azerbaijan.

On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about the stone resource next to Babylon. While there is some local limestone, southern Mesopotamia overall has very poor stone resources, which was a serious concern in ancient history (along with the lack of metals and timber). I have no real clue on gameplay considerations, but a cow could be a reasonable replacement I think.

I was meaning to suggest that rice South of the Caspian Sea. Though rice has been in Persia since ancient times it should probably should spawn around the Iranian spawn date as that's when rice became a staple in Persian cuisine.

Also do any of Babylon's Wonders require stone? That could be a reason it's still there.

 

[stormogulen]

Also do any of Babylon's Wonders require stone? That could be a reason it's still there.

It boosts the Hanging Gardens. I think it could make sense to have stone in Assyria, which is better known for good stone resources. It seems to me that building such gardens was mostly an Assyrian thing anyway, with some believing that the references to the Gardens of Babylon actually refer to Sennacherib's gardens in Nineveh (https://www.history.com/news/hanging-gardens-existed-but-not-in-babylon).

The tile the peak moves to is Tabriz, isn't it?

Yeah, that's probably the best spot although I don't think moving it 1E would be super bad. It could easily be better to keep the current peak configuration and maybe shuffle resources a bit though.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes. Overall the resources currently on the map are mostly a reflection of historical concerns, with only a first pass of attention being paid to balance. I definitely expect to find some overpowered (or underpowered) locations when it actually comes into use.

 

[stormogulen]

I found a pretty nice map of the estimated vegetation of Iceland at the time it was settled:

Spoiler Vegetation map :

In light of it I suggest placing its forests like this:

Spoiler Forest placement :