[Development] Map Suggestions

[Publicola]

There's been a lot of discussion about it over the years, but the West Coast is currently shaped like that because the map is based off of the Robinson projection

The original Big Map used the Robinson projection as a base, but that's really shouldn't be relevant in this case, because pretty much every proposal to change the map has been on the basis of a) what fixes the shape of the land and sea to match reality with minimal distortion and b) what fits the needs of the civs who use that land.


Regarding a), the Robinson projection is great for most of the globe, because it pushes all the inevitable distortion of depicting globe on a flat surface to the very edges. If you use a Robinson projection centered on the Pacific Ocean -- I own such a map (here's a link) -- the distortions are pushed to the new edges, which makes Europe look small and insignificant. In other words, this is purely an artifact of where the map projection places its edges. The world map in Civ is a flat rectangle, with no edges, so even while we use the Robinson projection, we are not bound to rely on Robinson's edges. Leoreth has acknowledged (link) that every other region along those edges -- Japan, Australia, New Zealand, and the Pacific Ocean as a whole -- have been placed & resized without regard to the Robinson distortion. It's only the North American West Coast that keeps it.


Regarding b), the entire reason for the many proposals to change the West Coast, is because the current map makes it impossible to settle the most important cities along that coast (San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver) without significant overlap. That's why it's been brought up, again and again; if you're playing as America, or Canada, or Mexico, or even Japan or China trying to settle the West Coast... you simply won't settle the most historically significant cities, because the region isn't designed for it.

Leoreth has said that he doesn't want to expand the region at the expense of California, but I don't recall a single proposal that did so. My two suggestions were to expand the coast out slightly westward (at the expense of the Pacific) or to push the whole region north (at the expense of northern British Columbia, where basically no one lives). You could even flatten the coastline and expand the region at the expense of the Rocky Mountains (also where no one lives).

I am actually happy with the current shape of the West Coast.

Is anyone who lives here happy with it? It's been a few years, but I distinctly remember posters from Canada and Oregon suggesting changes to the coast. I'm from Washington and made multiple suggestions. Pretty sure there was even a Californian who made suggestions.

(Seriously, if there are any others out there from the North American west coast, anywhere from Baja California to Alaska, I'd like to hear from you: do any of you like its current shape in the big map?)

This isn't a democracy, but surely a regional consensus should count for something. If there was a random Indian poster who said the coastline near Gujarat was flawed, that's easy enough to ignore. If every other poster from India and Pakistan chipped in to agree, would that get you to reconsider?

 

[Leoreth]

This isn't a democracy

I agree with this central argument of the post.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I agree with this central argument of the post.

Democracy is the worst form of government

 

[Dracosolon]

Don't have a strong position on the current debate but I don't think getting rid of either Portland or Seattle is that hard a sacrifice.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Don't have a strong position on the current debate but I don't think getting rid of either Portland or Seattle is that hard a sacrifice.

My proposal was about fixing the weird shape of the coast, not about fitting in more cities...

 

[Uncle Paul]

Hello. I've only had the opportunity to play DoC for a short while, but I liked it immensely, and upon finding out that a new and improved map is under development, I could not wait to contribute it it! Unfortunately, I do not currently have a computer, so I cannot use the actual state of the new map to demonstrate my changes. Therefore, I have resorted to creating a table myself for it.

The India-Pakistan-Bangladesh region (which I will call "India" hereon for the sake of brevity) is one of the most densely populated areas of the world, clocking in at around 1.4-1.5 billion people currently. China east of the Heihe-Tengchong line is also similarly populous and has a similar area. Yet in the new map, it seems that eastern China is somewhat larger than India, probably due to the map projection. Therefore, I have endeavoured to improve India a lil bit.

Spoiler Map :

View attachment 614049
If you're comparing this with the current map and are unable to anchor yourself, know that the lake in Tibet and the mountain near the Indus (immediately north of Quetta, at 1-5 on this map) have both not been altered at all.
This India has been increased in size by around 9-10 tiles, which makes it about as big as eastern China. Sri Lanka has been moved south by 1 tile.

H represents hill tiles, M mountain tiles, shaded tiles are the sea, the one shaded tile in Tibet is a lake, the solid lines inside land are rivers, the dotted lines denote modern international borders for convenience.

Here are the major points of this map:

• The Ganges-Brahmaputra plain is larger. The Assam plain is properly shown north of the Brahmaputra (south of it are the Garo-Khasi hills).
• The four largest tributaries of the Ganges (Ghagara, Gandaki, Kosi and Son) have been added. These have a significant volume of water flowing through them and should be considered rivers in their own right.
• The Peninsular rivers also get their major tributaries. For the Godavari, the Pranhita is represented. For the Krishna, Bhima and Tungabhadra.
• The tile marked R is represented as a sea in the original map, but in fact this tile is the Rann of Kutch, which is mostly salt flats IIRC. It is classed as "flooded grasslands" however. Marsh?
• I have removed some mountains to make space for Srinagar (6-2) and Kathmandu (12-5). In the gaps between the Himalayas, there exist passes which were quite important IRL.

If you like this map, I can make a list of every city name of every tile in this map, complete with historical changes. If someone can show me screenshots of the current map with resources visible, I can plot every resource on this map as well, and perhaps suggest some more resources.

Now, considering the history of India IRL, I have a proposal to make that can take advantage of this larger India.

Spoiler Proposal :

Historically, India was disunited, with dozens of rival kingdoms fighting each other and brief periods of hegemonic unity. DoC does an adequate job of representing this with three civs (North India, South India and Islamic India/Pakistan). However, considering the increaser size of India currently, I propose using five civilizations instead.

• Maurya -> Gupta -> Pratihara -> Sikh -> India
• Delhi -> Mughal -> Pakistan
• Satavahana -> Vakataka -> Rashtrakuta -> Chalukya -> Vijayanagar (-> Bahmani if Muslim) -> Maratha
• Chola -> Mysore (-> (appropriate Lankan state) if capital on Sri Lanka)
• Gauda -> Pala -> Sena -> Bengal (Sultanate) -> Bengal (Nawabate) (if vassalised) -> Bangladesh

This will create far more variety in India and more accurately depict the struggle it takes to unite this land, while also allowing the player to play through iconic situations in Indian history such as the Tripartite Struggle. I am of course open to suggestions as well.

Thanks, looking forward to seeing your suggestion in game.

Do you have an idea for a good umbrella name for the third civilization you propose?

I'm going to try to recreate this suggestion in game tomorrow, since it looks very promising, and GoldenBronze hasn't posted since last December

 

[Krieger-FS]

More few map suggestions, this time regarding Guinea region. Most are minor adjustments and some thoughts about resources.

Spoiler Nigeria :

• Adjusted plot types to better reflect local topography: flattened few hill tiles (in Orange/India in Sokoto and 1N of Kano) and added hills (Yellow/Egypt) 1S of Kano.
• Switched (Green/Ethiopia) some Jungle tiles to Rainforest to allow earlier settlements in Nigerian southern rainforest, both for native peoples and colonial nations alike.
• In the far north, moved (Green/Ethiopia) the Agadez Oasis 1N to better reflect its real-life location and to open space for alternative Hausa cities.

Spoiler Lower Guinea :

• Few adjustments in local topography: flattened (Orange/India) Ghana and added some hills (Yellow/Egypt) to represent Togo Mountains.
• Changed the Volta River mouth (Accra tile) east to better reflect real-life Accra location. The suggestion was originally proposed by Steb.
• Switched (Green/Ethiopia) some Jungle tiles for Rainforest to allow colonial settlements. Also changed Kong tile to Savanna to better reflect the local vegetation.
• Moved (Black/Barbarian) northmost Gold 1N from Kong to better reflect the real-life location of Lobi goldfield.

Spoiler Upper Guinea :

• Removed (Cyan/Greek) Marsh tile near Niani/Monrovia, since didn’t find any reference for marshes there. Turned the tile in a Jungle + Hill + Savanna (to better reflect local geography) and put an Aluminum resource there (Guinea is one of the major bauxite producers in the world)
• While I’ve leaved (Grey/Independent) the Aluminum resource In Gambia/Senegal, it may be removed unless represents titanium. Senegal has some relevant reserves but are mostly underdeveloped today.
• Added a Flood Plain (Green/Ethiopia) in the Senegal river, since the area has many wetlands.

Spoiler Mali and Niger :

• Added (Purple/Babylonia) a Marsh 1W of Djenné/Jenne to reflect local wetlands/marshes/floodplains. I’m honestly not 100% sure about this addition, but it felt wrong to not add at least one in the Inner Niger Delta. Also added a Savanna (Green/Ethiopia) 1N of Niani for aesthetic reasons.
• Changed some plot types in northeast to improve the representation of local geography. Tadmekka tile turned into hill (Yellow/Egypt) to better reflect Adrar des Ifoghas and flattened Takedda (Orange/India), and extended Desert 1S of it (Grey/Independent) to represent the sandy area there.

Spoiler Overview of suggested map changes: :

 

[Krieger-FS]

A take on the Sahara:

Spoiler Mauritania and Mali :

• Adjusted the terrain, notably flattening (Orange/India) some tiles to better represent local topography. Algo thought about adding Draa river in southern Marocco, but ultimately dismissed.
• Added two Oasis (Green/Ethiopia) to allow the settling of relevant historical towns that related to the Trans-Saharan trade, like Azuggi /Azougui (first capital of Almoravid Dynasty), Chinguetti, Oudane and Taghaza.
• Resources (Black/Barbarian): added a Copper in Mauritania (represent the historical and current production center in Akjoujt) and moved Salt 1E to place an Oasis in that tile.

Spoiler Algeria :

• Messed around with Oasis. Removed one (Red/Canadian) and added/moved others (Green/Ethiopia), again to allow settling some relevant historical/current towns such as Sijilmasa, Tuat/Adrar, In Salah, and Ouargla.
• Adjusted some plot types to better reflect the regional geography. Added an additional Mountain (White/Japanese) for the Hoggar Mountains and flattened (Orange/India) a tile in NE Algeria.
• Resources (Black/Barbarian): removed Sijilmasa Salt (the city was notable trade center, not a production one) but added a Coal 1E of it, to represent the production in Béchar. Added two Dates (I may have been overboard here!) to represent the historical and current production areas of it and allow the local cities grow a little in the desert. Lastly, added an Oil in the south (representing the production near In Salah) and a Rare Earths in Hoggar Mountains (the area has some valuable minerals, but production is underdeveloped though).

Spoiler Niger and Chad :

• Adjusted plot types and terrain to have a more precise Air Mountains, moving the Mountain 1N (White/Japanese), adding Hills in its original tile (Yellow/Egypt) and flattening and turning in to a full-desert the Salt tile (Orange/India). These changes also give more space for northern Nigeria, which should have some few large Hausa cities.
• Also moved Uranium 1N (Black/Barbarian) to open space for Agadez.
• For aesthetic and gameplay reasons, turned a former plain tile (Grey/Independent) into a semi-desert + flood plains.

Spoiler Libya :

• Messed with the local Oasis, removing (Red/Canadian) and adding (Green/Ethiopia) some considering relevant cities, particularly in Fezzan. I’m honestly not completely satisfied and would love to hear some feedback.
  Regarding terrain, turned Ghat tile in a semi-desert (Grey/Independent) and adjusted Tibesti Mountains, flattening and turning into a desert the westmost tile (Orange/India) and adding a mountain (White/Japanese).
• Resources (Black/Barbarian): moved the Deer from the Tibesti Mountains to southern Hoggar Massif, so it is accessible for the Fezzan cities, which should be larger than any on the former, and the Salt (in the Orange/India tile) to be closer to Bilma. Added Gems (Turquoise variant) to represent the Amazonite exploited there since Garamantes times. Finally, also added Dates in Fezzan since it is a major production area.

Spoiler Overview of map changes in Western and Central Sahara :

I’m planning to look Egypt next. I don’t know if Leoreth is still open to discuss the Nile course (there were some discussions earlier this year in this same thread), but it seems more to the West than it should be. I’m still not sure in how to adjust it yet, but will give a shot and show to you soon.

 

[Steb]

I’m planning to look Egypt next. I don’t know if Leoreth is still open to discuss the Nile course (there were some discussions earlier this year in this same thread), but it seems more to the West than it should be. I’m still not sure in how to adjust it yet, but will give a shot and show to you soon.

Good luck with Egypt. I think it's going to be hard to improve on it! Although I did convince myself that the Nile should be moved 1 tile east, with Thebes as a seaport.

 

[Steb]

Very minor aesthetic suggestion: add floodplains to the marsh tile in Mesopotamia, so that the marsh seems continuous with the river ecosystem instead of being separated from the river by desert. (I don't know if that would change the yield of the tile but I don't think it matters much.)

Spoiler :

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Very minor aesthetic suggestion: add floodplains to the marsh tile in Mesopotamia, so that the marsh seems continuous with the river ecosystem instead of being separated from the river by desert. (I don't know if that would change the yield of the tile but I don't think it matters much.)

Spoiler :

View attachment 643236

Flood Plains and Marsh are both terrain features, and you can only have one on each tile. There is also the Marsh terrain, but it seems that the specific tile is of Desert rather than Marsh terrain type.

 

[Steb]

Flood Plains and Marsh are both terrain features, and you can only have one on each tile. There is also the Marsh terrain, but it seems that the specific tile is of Desert rather than Marsh terrain type.

Oh, right. Doesn't really matter either way, but maybe making it a greener terrain instead of desert would look better.

 

[Krieger-FS]

As said, I messed around with the Nile to try to improve Egypt. As said here, it is difficult to improve it, but I do feel that the river should be moved 1E, which would mean that Thebes will be a coastal city. As Steb remembered some time ago, the city is not far from the sea and had an ancient road to it. And we have plenty of other cities in the real world that are inland but in game are coastal, for example, São Paulo, Quito (which is in the Andes!), York, and many others as can be seen in the spreadsheet.

That been said, the areas that I feel most problematic to represent is the mouth and the curve that included the first and second cataracts (which are now submerged in Lake Nasser). For reference, you can see here is the map. I found some few possibilities, as can be seem bellow (please ignore resource/oasis/terrain placement, here I'm discussing just the river course/location):

Spoiler Egypt and Nile :

Option 1:

Option 2:

Option 3:

Option 4:

Option 5:

I’m think the better options are 1) and 5), but honestly I’m not 100% sure. Would love to hear some feedback!

 

[Steb]

As said, I messed around with the Nile to try to improve Egypt. As said here, it is difficult to improve it, but I do feel that the river should be moved 1E, which would mean that Thebes will be a coastal city. As Steb remembered some time ago, the city is not far from the sea and had an ancient road to it. And we have plenty of other cities in the real world that are inland but in game are coastal, for example, São Paulo, Quito (which is in the Andes!), York, and many others as can be seen in the spreadsheet.

That been said, the areas that I feel most problematic to represent is the mouth and the curve that included the first and second cataracts (which are now submerged in Lake Nasser). For reference, you can see here is the map. I found some few possibilities, as can be seem bellow (please ignore resource/oasis/terrain placement, here I'm discussing just the river course/location):

Spoiler Egypt and Nile :

Option 1:
View attachment 643312

Option 2:
View attachment 643313

Option 3:
View attachment 643314

Option 4:
View attachment 643315

Option 5:
View attachment 643316

I’m think the better options are 1) and 5), but honestly I’m not 100% sure. Would love to hear some feedback!

All of your proposals seem to make the Nile area really wide along the east-west dimension, in the bend south of Thebes. I especially dislike the staircase pattern in Options 1-3, it looks very artificial. I'd say the part of the river west of Napata and the cotton should be aligned with the northern part (next to Memphis), instead of being to the west of it. The bend near Meroe can be further east by one tile.

In other words, just move the entire river 1E from the current setup; in yet other words, move 1E everything south of Aswan in Options 4 or 5. I'm not sure if it would cause problems further south but I'm not too worried.

I don't know what to do about the delta either — symmetry is nice but it should also reach south to Memphis/Cairo. I'd say it's clear that Options 1-3 make the bend towards Thebes start too far north, however.

Also—from looking at topographic maps of the area, I think it would be important that Thebes sits on a flat tile. The flat coastal tile east of it should be a hill instead, there's no need for a flat tile in the north of the Eastern Desert IMO.

 

[DC123456789]

Could I get access to the private map repository to take a look at/annotate? My github account is here:
https://github.com/DC123456789.

 

[Krieger-FS]

All of your proposals seem to make the Nile area really wide along the east-west dimension, in the bend south of Thebes. I especially dislike the staircase pattern in Options 1-3, it looks very artificial. I'd say the part of the river west of Napata and the cotton should be aligned with the northern part (next to Memphis), instead of being to the west of it. The bend near Meroe can be further east by one tile.

In other words, just move the entire river 1E from the current setup; in yet other words, move 1E everything south of Aswan in Options 4 or 5. I'm not sure if it would cause problems further south but I'm not too worried.

I don't know what to do about the delta either — symmetry is nice but it should also reach south to Memphis/Cairo. I'd say it's clear that Options 1-3 make the bend towards Thebes start too far north, however.

Also—from looking at topographic maps of the area, I think it would be important that Thebes sits on a flat tile. The flat coastal tile east of it should be a hill instead, there's no need for a flat tile in the north of the Eastern Desert IMO.

About the delta, I also don't know what the better option is. A symmetrical one seems easier and more obvious, but I do find less aesthetic pleasant. Looking at the Ancient Egypt map, the bend seems more pronounced on the west, but on the current basin map it seems more to the east (probably because of the canal connecting to Suez). I'm leaning for the west bend on the delta, but not wholeheartedly.

Took your suggestions and made another option here:

Spoiler Option 6: :

Making everything goes 1E south of Aswan seems to cause some problems in the south. Some additional adjustments are also needed in the White Nile and tributaries, but my main concern, as you can see, is that it takes some space from Ethiopia. While it is not much now, certainly will make the area quite cramped when we consider Nubia inclusion.

A possible alternative is to change the place where the White and Blue Nile meet, leaving everything south of it in the original position. While it makes some distortion, it leaves more space for Ethiopia and Nubian cities. Thus, we have a last option to consider (again, ignore terrain/oasis/resource placement):

Spoiler Option 7: :

 

[Steb]

About the delta, I also don't know what the better option is. A symmetrical one seems easier and more obvious, but I do find less aesthetic pleasant. Looking at the Ancient Egypt map, the bend seems more pronounced on the west, but on the current basin map it seems more to the east (probably because of the canal connecting to Suez). I'm leaning for the west bend on the delta, but not wholeheartedly.

Took your suggestions and made another option here:

Spoiler Option 6: :

View attachment 643337

Making everything goes 1E south of Aswan seems to cause some problems in the south. Some additional adjustments are also needed in the White Nile and tributaries, but my main concern, as you can see, is that it takes some space from Ethiopia. While it is not much now, certainly will make the area quite cramped when we consider Nubia inclusion.

A possible alternative is to change the place where the White and Blue Nile meet, leaving everything south of it in the original position. While it makes some distortion, it leaves more space for Ethiopia and Nubian cities. Thus, we have a last option to consider (again, ignore terrain/oasis/resource placement):

Spoiler Option 7: :

View attachment 643339
View attachment 643338

Hmm I do like Options 6 and especially 7 more! I think the shape of the Nile is approximated much better like this.

On the other hand, it's true that I hadn't considered Nubia. I suppose that a wider southern bend could be argued for, to allow enough space for Meroe and Napata to coexist, though overall I'm against it on aesthetic grounds.

(Also—I guess Thebes as a coastal city becomes a prime location for the Great Lighthouse? Not that it matters much, especially if Egypt spawns at Memphis.)

 

[Krieger-FS]

I also do like option 7 and, thinking now, seems to me the better approach given the circumstances. I’ll use it as base for the map suggestions in Egypt later.

Regarding Nubia, we certainly must think about their canonical cities, because not all the important ones can be represented here. I do think Napata and Meroe can reasonably coexist one tile away from each other as show, but things are less certain when we consider Kerma (the original Nubian and longer lasting capital), the medieval capitals of Makuria (Dongola, on the same tile of Napata), Nobatia (Pachoras/Faras, 1W or 2W from Aswan), and Alodia (Soba, 1E or on the same tile of Khartum), and the Funj Sultanate (Sennar), all which could be included on the same Nubian civ. But I’ll leave the discussion about them for the other thread.

 

[Krieger-FS]

Here is my latest take on Egypt, considering the discussion above in this thread, with a before and after changes for comparison:

Spoiler Egypt :

Current Egypt:

Revised Egypt:

• Moved the entire river 1E from the point where White and Blue Nile meet (Khartum tile).
• Adjusted resources and Oasis accordingly the east push. Switched Salt and Cotton locations (as Steb suggested) and moved Horses 1N, to be closer to the Delta, which was a grazing ground for the Hyksos and Ancient Egypt.
• Turned flat the Thebes (also suggested by Steb) and Gold tiles to better reflect local topography. Moved the Hill in the Western Desert to 1W of Camel to have a more precise location for Gilf Kebir Plateau.

With these suggestions, I finish my larger revisions on Africa, since the changes needed in Ethiopia, Horn of Africa, and South Africa, are much less extensive and essentially boils down to adjusting terrain and resources for canonical cities, given that we won’t make any substantial changes in landmass. I’m still working on CNM (just finished North Africa except East Libya and Egypt), but probably I won’t make more detailed and larger posts here discussing map revisions.

Thus, I’m also leaving here a save attached with all map suggestions for anyone see or make their own proposals.

 

[Derdan]

It looks really good but should Thebes really be a coastal city? What is the argument for it?