[Development] Map Suggestions

[Leoreth]

1 hammer, 1 gold next to river, 1 food next to river, all improvements, +x% to improvement construction speed, some bonus to light cavalry (movement? attack? pillaging without losing movepoints?).

So, with steppe belt somewhere here -
View attachment 499573

- steppe east of Volga river is mostly untouched (farms are harder to built, and barbarians more threatening, but nothing too extreme), but Southern Siberia is seriously nerfed: cities still can be founded here, but their growth will be delayed until Chemistry and labourers, and even then they will need huge amount of work.

That looks good to me. As far as the art is concerned, do you think Steppe should be less saturated? The overall transition from plains via steppes and semidesert to desert looks alright. What if Steppe uses the Semidesert art and I come up with something inbetween Semidesert and Desert art?

I also see what you mean with the transition from Steppe to other terrains. I think this is related to what is prioritised to be drawn if two terrains border each other, so that might be an easy fix.

About stats, I am somewhat concerned how Steppe compares to Semidesert. Shouldn't it be better than Semidesert?

Bulgars -> Kazan/Astrakhan Khanate -> Tatarstan/Bashkiria, or Khazars -> Crimean Khanate/Nogai Horde -> Northern Causasus states and ethnicities.

First (Volga) variant provides more serious opponent to Russia (sudden rebellion in middle of empire), but Bulgars are less known and less interesting as PC civ.
Second (Pontic) less challenging for Russia and less historical, but Khazars (Judaism state religion, at last!) is more interesting civ.

Don't think a lot, though.

Khazars are just too shortlived to be the center point of an entire civ in my opinion. You don't think the Golden Horde should be in here somewhere, appearing in case the Mongols collapse? They are of course nominally a Mongol polity but in Russia most of the people under their rule were Tatars and they were referred as such by Russians. The Golden/Great Horde would be a good obstacle to Russia and is the predecessor to the other Khanates you mention.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

As far as the art is concerned, do you think Steppe should be less saturated?

It is a bit oversaturated right now, I think.

About stats, I am somewhat concerned how Steppe compares to Semidesert. Shouldn't it be better than Semidesert?

Agreed. We call it prairie over here, but it's basically the same thing. It can be quite lush near water, but much less welcoming away from it. 1 , +1 , commerce near rivers, and plenty of grain or herd animal resources should do a good enough job. I assume placing a lot of those resources won't be a problem, given that resources are now less effective.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I'm also wondering if improvements other than on resources that require them should carry a tech requirement? Making riverside Steppe equivalent to grassland would be too powerful for most of the game I think, plus it introduces some synergy between Steppe and the Elective civic.

 

[Finbros]

About stats, I am somewhat concerned how Steppe compares to Semidesert. Shouldn't it be better than Semidesert?

Semidesert properties affects other regions (Sahel, Middle East, Argentina), so I don't suppose changes to it.

I think that continiuum like this would be good:

- tundra: river commerce only
- moorlands (wetlands, podzol soils): 1 food, all improvements
- grasslands: 2 food, all improvements
- plains: 1 food, 1 hammer, all improvements
- steppe: 1 food near water, 1 hammer, all improvements. (Eurasian savanna, Argentine pampas, Midwest praires)
- semidesert: 0 food, 0 or 1 hammer, but all improvements.
- desert: river commerce only.

Using previously mentioned map:

I suppose this distribution:

Brown - steppe (temperate steppe biome, minus Great Plains - think it should be plains, plus northern Mongolia and South Siberia)
Orange - semidesert (dry steppes, semiarid desert, except Northern Mongolia)
Yellow - desert (arid desert and xeric shrubland)

P.S. After I draw this map I see that foodless semidesert will be too harsh for most regions.
So, 1 food near rivers seems ok.

 

[Leoreth]

I think I am mostly okay with this except that Semidesert for the entire Middle East including Persia seems a little harsh. At least western Persia deserves to be plains.

Also this is completely off topic but this map suggests that Chile should be much greener than it is.

 

[BarbarianX]

Talking about the textures, I sugget using the Semi-Desert one for Steppe terrains, while SD would be a fix of grass and rocky-desert patches, not sure if I made myself clear about it.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah so all I can do is change saturation and hue for existing textures

 

[Finbros]

Khazars are just too shortlived to be the center point of an entire civ in my opinion. You don't think the Golden Horde should be in here somewhere, appearing in case the Mongols collapse? They are of course nominally a Mongol polity but in Russia most of the people under their rule were Tatars and they were referred as such by Russians. The Golden/Great Horde would be a good obstacle to Russia and is the predecessor to the other Khanates you mention.

Ingame Mongols arrive to Russia somewhen at 1200 - 1300, and even at 1350, and collapse at ~1450-1500, as RL Golden/Great Horde does, so Mongol civ represent GH pretty good. (Probably, for better representing GH we should just give to arriving Mongols some settlers at Sarai).

I suppose, Mongol civ represents well not only united Mongol Empire, but cultural and dynastic unity of Mongolian successor khanates too (Yuan, Ilkhanate), why GH should be different?

Also, if Russia will be split into Rus and Muscovy, with spawn date of latter somewhen at 1350, probably, it will weaken Russia enough itself, without GH or Tatar civ?

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know, that remains to be seen. But I would definitely split Russia before adding a Tatar civ.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

I apologize if this is already in place. But the area of East Anglia in the UK, should have some marshland, which should disappear during the industrial revolution (when they were drained).

 

[Crimean Lord]

Ingame Mongols arrive to Russia somewhen at 1200 - 1300, and even at 1350, and collapse at ~1450-1500, as RL Golden/Great Horde does, so Mongol civ represent GH pretty good. (Probably, for better representing GH we should just give to arriving Mongols some settlers at Sarai).

I suppose, Mongol civ represents well not only united Mongol Empire, but cultural and dynastic unity of Mongolian successor khanates too (Yuan, Ilkhanate), why GH should be different?

Also, if Russia will be split into Rus and Muscovy, with spawn date of latter somewhen at 1350, probably, it will weaken Russia enough itself, without GH or Tatar civ?

That's right: current mongols are really convenient and flexible
1. They represents huge variation of post-mongolian weak states as indepent/barb cities;
2. Perhaps there is more simple way about adoptation of Golden/Great Horde: just give them 1/2 settlers for found cities in Lower Volga + Crimea in the period when mongol tribes arrives into Russia
(nowadays the have only military units)

 

[Crimean Lord]

I don't know, that remains to be seen. But I would definitely split Russia before adding a Tatar civ.

Split of Russia is magnificent not only because ti's base on historical ground
1. Rus have chance to represent both Kievan State and even Great Lithoania (90% of GL was Rus' lands and population);
2. It closed potential of early Wars between Russian and Poland but on the other side it will stimulate wars against Rus;
3. Also Rus have potential to stop early/extra cities for Russia/
Poland in Ukrainian and Belorussian lands;
4. Perhaps Moscovy (1300 start) should be scripted start with status of Mongol's vassal - its way to save newborn civ from tribes of Mongol. Also it's way ti save power and use it against post-mongolina states and other Russian foes;

 

[Leoreth]

I don't think the Rus should also represent Lithuania (Poland is fine to cover all of the PLC), but they could return later as the Zaporozhian Sich or Ukraine as needed.

 

[Crimean Lord]

I don't think the Rus should also represent Lithuania (Poland is fine to cover all of the PLC), but they could return later as the Zaporozhian Sich or Ukraine as needed.

It's so nice to listen about that
#MakeEasternEuropeGreatAgain

 

[Lokki242]

I'm a bit of an advocate for a distinct Lithuanian civ to represent all the baltic pagans since they're such a unique case for medieval Europe.

 

[ganker14]

I think the sheep resource in Lecce should be changed to an olive one, since that region alone produces around the 40% of the olive oil in Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apulia#Olive_cultivars

Also a coal source could be added in Cagliari (actually not sure this would be good for balancing stuff etc.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonia,_Sardinia

 

[TJDowling]

I don't think the Rus should also represent Lithuania (Poland is fine to cover all of the PLC), but they could return later as the Zaporozhian Sich or Ukraine as needed.

I think maximum one civ could be added to Eastern Europe without making the civs over-glorified independents. And Kievan Rus is probably the best candidate. I think Poland-Lithuania, Kievan Rus/Ukraine, and Muscovy/Russia could compete for territory in the Baltic and Black Sea without making any of them immediately too powerful/too weak. Any other civs (including and independent Lithuania) in the region could be represented by independent cities.

As far as Mongols go I think it could be beneficial to give them a settler for Sarai and give them conquerors for Kiev's eastern settlements. Muscovy/Russia's spawn could be moved to after the Mongol invasion. An independent Novgorod could pop up some time before that. Novgorod, Mongol Sarai and Kiev's settlements could give a late starting Muscovy the necessary boost to get it in the game. That said, if we didn't want to start Muscovy too late it would put an even greater time crunch on the Mongol UHV.

EDIT:
I'm also intrigued by the idea of Muscovy starting as a vassal of Mongolia if that is possible. As Mongolia is bound to collapse before long anyway. Does vassalized territory count towards Mongolia'a UHV?

 

[Finbros]

I'm think, timeline should look something like that (if without tatar civ)

- 800 AD: Independent Kiev spawns (Rus Khaganate). Barbarian/Turkic Itil (Astrakhan plot) spawns (Khazars).
- 860 AD: Rus spawns at Novgorod (1-2 settlers, Huscarls, archers).
- 880 AD: Rus flips Kiev. AI gets scripted palace, player, probably, should have UHV tied to moving palace to Kiev.

- 12xx: Mongols arrive. Qazan (Kazan' plot) and Sarai (Volgograd) settled. Kiev captured, Rus, shifted north, turns into rump Novgorod or collapses. Mongols declare war on Poland (Liegnitz battle), but doesn't receive any scripted stack, allowing Poles grab from them western cities of former Rus.
- ~1330. Muscovy spawns, but doesn't flip anything at initial. Core of Rus civ shrink from full Rus territory to Belarus+Ukraine, making Novgorodian Rus (if it is still here) heavily unstable.
- 14?0. Mongolia collapses. Muscovy Russia and Poland-Lithuania grab indy "principalities".

 

[Crimean Lord]

I'm think, timeline should look something like that (if without tatar civ)

- 800 AD: Independent Kiev spawns (Rus Khaganate). Barbarian/Turkic Itil (Astrakhan plot) spawns (Khazars).
- 860 AD: Rus spawns at Novgorod (1-2 settlers, Huscarls, archers).
- 880 AD: Rus flips Kiev. AI gets scripted palace, player, probably, should have UHV tied to moving palace to Kiev.

- 12xx: Mongols arrive. Qazan (Kazan' plot) and Sarai (Volgograd) settled. Kiev captured, Rus, shifted north, turns into rump Novgorod or collapses. Mongols declare war on Poland (Liegnitz battle), but doesn't receive any scripted stack, allowing Poles grab from them western cities of former Rus.
- ~1330. Muscovy spawns, but doesn't flip anything at initial. Core of Rus civ shrink from full Rus territory to Belarus+Ukraine, making Novgorodian Rus (if it is still here) heavily unstable.
- 14?0. Mongolia collapses. Muscovy Russia and Poland-Lithuania grab indy "principalities".

Using new developing map and major of current suggestions - I've prepared a few screenshoots about prototipe of new Eastern Europe political map
1. Probably 1400: there are so many potential/historical foes for RUSSIA which need stop in the beggining of its development (Russ Accesor - Novgorod/Pskov + Golden Horde + growing Poland-Lithoania + Ottoman Empire in the north coast of the Black Sea)
2. Huge mediaval Kievan Rus. Golden Age (11-12 centuries): de-facto no enemies in this period except Byzantion Empire, Lithoanin's pagans and Khazarian/Bulagar tribes. Yes, there are even future Moscow's territiory - I think that in general it's historical accurate;

P.S. Also I suggest to add:
*Marshes (2 tiles) to Moscow; - it helps nerf Moscow, which have a lot of land's tiles
*Rice and Horses to Tatar's Land - it helps to develop Volga area withous historical damage;
*Potato to Central Russia, Upper Volga and of course Belarus;
*Extra CORN and Wheat to Ukraine appearing in the 1700-1800 which may decrease influence of new steppe-terrains;
*Horses and Vine to Crimean peninsula which represent Crimean Tatars and vine heritage of greeks (nowadays this tradition still live);
*More IRON/Coal and Cows to Ukraine (steppes) which represent Ukrainian mettalurgy in Krivoy Rog and mines of Donbass. Cows give good for Eastern Ukraine main cities like Char'kov or Dnepropetrovsk;
*More Fur to North Russia - because new system of luxury want a lot of copies of resources if we speak about big civilizations;
*Extra OIL to Bashkiria, Chukotka, Western Siberea, Sahalin, Yamal (4/5 new OIl bases on exteme territory so it will really hard to take it)
(Perhaps extra oil need spreading into Middle East's desert espessialy it's importnat for Saudi Arabia + Qatar. And also we need give more OIL to North America - there was some oil in Pensilvania and even South California)
*May be there is sense to transit one oil from Kaspian Sea to Azebaijan's land-territoty which represent beggining of the oil industry in the Russian Empire and also Soviet Russia

 

[Finbros]

At last.
Final fixes, except general (include some from Crimean Lord):
- steppe, moorlands, taiga everywhere
- Pripyat river moved 1N north, to Ukrainian-Belarussian border
- Dnieper stretched west (shape is more realistic and Kryvbass iron now on the west bank, as IRL)
- horses near Kiev changed to cows (too much horses in Pontic steppe)
- horses 1N from Crimea moved to Crimea (for same purposes, and also blocking ahistorical city spot)
- sheeps at West Ukraine
- furs at North Ural

Spawns:

- corn at (89; 63) in 1700
- corn at (80; 60) in 1700
- wheat at (87; 59) in 1700
- tobacco at (87; 60) in 1700
- potato at (79;66) in 1800
- potato at (81;63) in 1800
- potato at (84;66) in 1800
- potato at (83;69) in 1800
- potato at (88; 66) in 1800
- tea at (91;55) at 1850

Don't know how to merge it with actual scenario file, so here is just worldbuilder save (Harappa civ)