Development thread for 1.5

[The Turk]

Why is Marco Polo's embassy even a wonder? What did it actually achieve that makes it worthy as a wonder? Sure it made a good book, but I don't see Don Quixote as a wonder.

Also Cordoba really should have trade economy. Any civ that had a mercantile (monied) economy in the Mediterranean world should have Trade Economy civic. al-Andalus was part of the same trade network that connected West and north Africa with the Eastern Mediterranean.

More infamously, where do you think they got the slaves for the Saqaliba? Long distance slave networks to Northern Europe (hence... Slavs).

In fact I would replace Berber Cavalry, give that to Morocco if anything, and instead make the UU for Andalusia: Saqaliba.

Also please add: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kairouan

Major city that was the administrative capital for the Caliphate in North Africa (west of Fustat/Cairo).

 

[El Bogus]

Kinda. Not really sure how historic it is, but I though they were not as trade focused as Arabia.

Okay, just wanted to ask. It's not even that important for Cordoba and you can always make the switch on your first turn before the flips.

That's vanilla Civ IV behavior AFAIK.

Normally, if you ask for a present from pleased or friendly civs, they can decline or give in. Neither has a diplomatic penalty. This is just for cautious (or lower) civs: With them, you can't even ask for a present. You can only demand something.

Also vanilla Civ IV. Settling on resources also connect resources earlier. Or did I change that for RFCE some time ago? I'm not really sure atm

When you build a fort on oil before having Combustion you don't get the ressource.

EDIT: btw, it's both lower case right now

Oops, hehe...

Why is Marco Polo's embassy even a wonder? What did it actually achieve that makes it worthy as a wonder? Sure it made a good book, but I don't see Don Quixote as a wonder.

I really like this wonder. Not only does it represent an early best seller, it also stands for all travelers and traders (besides Marco Polo) that went into the Far East and who often were Italian. So, wether Marco Polo were in China or not (which I think, he was but that's irrelevant) doesn't matter. It gives Europe the chance to access silk without forcing its way into the Levant.

 

[The Turk]

So, wether Marco Polo were in China or not (which I think, he was but that's irrelevant) doesn't matter. It gives Europe the chance to access silk without forcing its way into the Levant.

Which is accurate how? Did Polo invent a teleportation machine?

 

[DC123456789]

The Marco Polo Embassy basically represents the Silk Road trade. Marco Polo is just the famous face of it.

 

[The Turk]

The Marco Polo Embassy basically represents the Silk Road trade. Marco Polo is just the famous face of it.

Except that "Silk Road" trade (whatever that means), went through the Middle East. Its silly that to get silk you need to build something called "Marco Polo" embassy. Marco Polo did not bring back anything noteworthy, except his journal.

Ditch Marco Polo Embassy, and add Red Sea --> Indian Ocean trade, like you have for the Atlantic. And have another point in the Lower Steppe for Central Asian trade which would represent part of the overland trade. To get around this you would have to build a colonial project through the Atlantic.

That already sounds far better than Marco Polo's Silk teleportation company.

 

[Swarbs]

That's vanilla Civ IV behavior AFAIK.

I thought the diplo penalty for asking only applied a penalty in vanilla if it was demanded (give us tribute) rather than asked (could you spare). That's how it is in the other RFC versions, and makes more sense imo.

The Marco Polo Embassy basically represents the Silk Road trade. Marco Polo is just the famous face of it.

No, the silk next to Damascus and Edessa represents the Silk Route trade.

Marco Polo is generally fairly overrated as an 'explorer'. Many European's, including Polo's dad and uncle, had already travelled to the east by the time of his travels. Marco Polo did nothing noteworthy other than get captured by Genoa and tell his story to his cellmate who wrote a famous book about it. He didn't even bring a huge amount of silk back with him, and only made one journey to Asia.

The current silk resources in the Middle East represent the land based silk road well enough imo, and give a reason for civs to remain friendly with Arabia. But I would argue in favour of replacing Marco Polo's Embassy with Vasco Da Gama's voyage, which actually took a new route to the east and brought sustainable trade routes. Constructed with Astronomy and required Atlantic Access. Definitely makes more sense that France, for example, being able to magic silk out of nowhere even if they are at war with every other civ and have no viable trade connection to the east.

EDIT: VDG's voyage could also give East Asia access, which would reflect the importance of this undertaking in Portugal gaining such a massive colonial springboard for such a small country.

 

[Swarbs]

Something else I think might benefit from a bit of thought are the UUs for some civs. In particular:

English Longbowmen are almost always too late to be of any value to the English UHV, particularly if they are going to move back to Military Tradition. In fact there is evidence of England using longbows from the late 13th century, so maybe have English longbows only requiring replaceable parts? Especially as the English have to deal with Welsh longbows from their start date
Polish Winged Hussars often don't emerge until after the UHV date. Maybe move them earlier but not as strong as full curaissiers? Strength 17 and require Professional Army, to reflect the fact that they were heavy lancers and not full gun equipped cavalry.

Btw, on the subject of longbows, why were the Welsh longbows boosted to 8 strength? They are already the strongest barb units outside the Mongols, Seljuks etc. Also will their spawn date now be moved back? As England and Scotland currently have absolutely nothing that can stand up to them until they get knights.

 

[El Bogus]

I'd argue against a removal of Marco Polo's Embassy. There are only a few Wonders in the early to midgame and removing one of them would make this time period more poor. It is a very strong wonder, though, because it is basically Notre Dame (two tradeable happiness ressources) plus a trade route and a free merchant for 100 less hammers. So maybe it could be nerfed a little. For example remove the silk and give like 2 more culture in compensation.
The free merchant is the main reason the wonder is important for Venice because it helps with buying the crusade and the trade route helps Genua if you can manage to grab it.

 

[The Turk]

So? We can think up a new wonder. I don't see why Marco Polo as a wonder is even needed.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think the original intention was to represent the increasing interest in Eastern Asian trade in Europe.
Mostly with his stories, but Marco Polo did take a part in that.
I guess that's why it is called "Marco Polo's Embassy" instead of "Marco Polo's Voyage", while there was nothing embassy-like in it.
So I feel that it's more connected to the legacy of it, not to the actual events.
What would be a better name?

Anyway, you guys are probably right. It's overpowered with the free Silk resources. Not too historic either.
The free merchant (or another trade-based bonus) is thematically fitting IMO, representing the aformentioned increased interest.

For example remove the silk and give like 2 more culture in compensation.

Probably something along these lines, yeah.

Related:
I think I will rather put another Silk resource in western Anatolia, which is removed when Byzantium collapses / Constantinople is conquered.
Now they don't have access to it after the Arab spawn, which wasn't the case at all.
(don't remember who suggested it, but I have it among my planned map changes)

 

[AbsintheRed]

The current silk resources in the Middle East represent the land based silk road well enough imo, and give a reason for civs to remain friendly with Arabia. But I would argue in favour of replacing Marco Polo's Embassy with Vasco Da Gama's voyage, which actually took a new route to the east and brought sustainable trade routes. Constructed with Astronomy and required Atlantic Access. Definitely makes more sense that France, for example, being able to magic silk out of nowhere even if they are at war with every other civ and have no viable trade connection to the east.

EDIT: VDG's voyage could also give East Asia access, which would reflect the importance of this undertaking in Portugal gaining such a massive colonial springboard for such a small country.

VDG sounds good, I'm not against adding this at all.
But I don't see why should it be mutually exclusive with the Marco Polo wonder.

 

[The Turk]

VDG sounds good, I'm not against adding this at all.
But I don't see why should it be mutually exclusive with the Marco Polo wonder.

Because the Polo wonder makes 0 sense, logically, historically or gameplay wise. Vasco de Gama ACTUALLY was a forerunner for greater exploration. Also can we have a slave resource. Slaves in Crimea and West Africa, and Northern Europe would be a nice touch to the game. So if you want to build slave soldiers, you have to have a source of slaves. Plus it would make otherwise marginal areas of the map, important.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Something else I think might benefit from a bit of thought are the UUs for some civs. In particular:

English Longbowmen are almost always too late to be of any value to the English UHV, particularly if they are going to move back to Military Tradition. In fact there is evidence of England using longbows from the late 13th century, so maybe have English longbows only requiring replaceable parts? Especially as the English have to deal with Welsh longbows from their start date
Polish Winged Hussars often don't emerge until after the UHV date. Maybe move them earlier but not as strong as full curaissiers? Strength 17 and require Professional Army, to reflect the fact that they were heavy lancers and not full gun equipped cavalry.

Btw, on the subject of longbows, why were the Welsh longbows boosted to 8 strength? They are already the strongest barb units outside the Mongols, Seljuks etc. Also will their spawn date now be moved back? As England and Scotland currently have absolutely nothing that can stand up to them until they get knights.

Good points.
I didn't (and don't) want to get into too many changes in the unit roster right now, the main point in the commit was to boost those defensive unit types against cavalry.

The Longbowman change was a direct consequence of that, it was moved back to avoid it being too close to the Arbalestier.
Wasn't careful enough with the special Longbow units, thanks for pointing it out!

 

[gilgames]

I don't know much about Marco Polo's Embassy, but if we speak about wonders then i have to mention that orthodox civs have very few wonder, and now even notre dame is lost too. What they most need is some military production boost, specially early on: to pop some idea it could be:
Vsevolod's Fortress. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vsevolod_II_of_Kiev) +15% military unit production in all cities. Since they barely have any knightly order or other military boost.

Other idea: that they all are lack health, so another wonder:
Kiev Pechersk Lavra. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agapetus_of_the_Kiev_Caves) could give +1 health in all cities.

 

[Swarbs]

Anyway, you guys are probably right. It's overpowered with the free Silk resources. Not too historic either.
The free merchant (or another trade-based bonus) is thematically fitting IMO, representing the aformentioned increased interest.

Well Marco Polo's voyage was part of the general cultural, philosophical, technological and scientific exchange between East and West which occurred along the Silk Road. Polo's book had a fairly big impact on society in general, but limited direct impact on trade. So maybe the wonder should be more appropriately named "The Travels of Marco Polo" and gives the city it is build in a 10% bonus to , and ? Along with the free merchant, so remove the silk and the trade route it currently gives.

I think I will rather put another Silk resource in western Anatolia, which is removed when Byzantium collapses / Constantinople is conquered.
Now they don't have access to it after the Arab spawn, which wasn't the case at all.
(don't remember who suggested it, but I have it among my planned map changes)

Sounds good to me - probably one within the BFC of Constantinople, arguably the Thracian side as that was where Justinian cultivated the silkworm he stole from China. To be removed when Constantinople is conquered by any other civ?

Good points.
I didn't (and don't) want to get into too many changes in the unit roster right now, the main point in the commit was to boost those defensive unit types against cavalry.

The Longbowman change was a direct consequence of that, it was moved back to avoid it being too close to the Arbalestier.
Wasn't careful enough with the special Longbow units, thanks for pointing it out!

Tbh I don't think the Longbow was too close to the Arbalestier. It would take at least 100-200 years of game time to go from Plate Armour to both Chivalry and Replaceable Parts, probably longer as most players will only get RP when they need it for something else.

Personally, I think moving Longbows back means they will almost never be used now. Why would you bother spending 110 on a Longbow when you can get a stronger Arquebusier for around half the cost, and can get access to it much quicker. Both Gunpowder and Military Tradition require Guilds, but Military Tradition also requires Drama which is down another branch of the tech tree, and Longbows also require Replaceable Parts. I don't think anyone will ever build a longbow again if they require MT, as they will be obsolete almost before they are available.

If anything, I would argue that given the cost of Longbows (more than Musketmen and Pikes), they should have their tech cost reduced to make them viable. If they are going to be so expensive they should be available before the 1300s, particularly for the English. It's not like they are even particularly OP - Arbalests are as good against heavy infantry and Guisarmers as good against cavalry.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Turk]

Well Marco Polo's voyage was part of the general cultural, philosophical, technological and scientific exchange between East and West which occurred along the Silk Road.

He really wasn't. Very marginal figure, except that in the 19th century his character and role were vastly exaggerated. Compared to Matteo Ricci or William of Rubruck, we don't even have evidence of anything he said. Marco Polo is way too mythologized, and this wonder only plays to that mythologization.

Polo's book had a fairly big impact on society in general, but limited direct impact on trade.

Whilst the book did become important to some explorers later on.... does this mean we should include all the influences of later explorers into the game? And he had ZERO impact on trade. He didn't bring back anything, start a trade network, or anything of the sort. Plenty of Venetians/Genoans already manned the Italian side of the trans Eurasian trade routes. I don't see what Marco Polo did of import.

So maybe the wonder should be more appropriately named "The Travels of Marco Polo" and gives the city it is build in a 10% bonus to , and ? Along with the free merchant, so remove the silk and the trade route it currently gives.

The only justifiable bonus is culture. I don't see how or why science or gold should be effected.

Sounds good to me - probably one within the BFC of Constantinople, arguably the Thracian side as that was where Justinian cultivated the silkworm he stole from China. To be removed when Constantinople is conquered by any other civ?

On that note, can we just copy and paste Sword of Islam's Eastern Mediterranean/Middle East into the game? The map for England or Scandinavia is beautiful, but the Middle East looks really ugly. Makes more sense to just copy paste IMO. The reason I bring this up, is because SOI has silk resources next to Constantinople.

 

[SanJose]

On that note, can we just copy and paste Sword of Islam's Eastern Mediterranean/Middle East into the game? The map for England or Scandinavia is beautiful, but the Middle East looks really ugly. Makes more sense to just copy paste IMO. The reason I bring this up, is because SOI has silk resources next to Constantinople.

Different scales, different projections of the earth.

 

[The Turk]

Different scales, different projections of the earth.

When I wrote "copy paste", I meant it figuratively, not literally. I know you can't just copy over files from SOI into RFCE. So in terms of resources, mountains, etc, all of this can be "copied" from SOI. The geography of Anatolia is in big need of a good update for instance, and the only mod that I can think that gets it right, is SOI. I have no idea how Embryodead got the geography in that game so damn correct. The map itself is a piece of art.

 

[SanJose]

When I wrote "copy paste", I meant it figuratively, not literally. I know you can't just copy over files from SOI into RFCE. So in terms of resources, mountains, etc, all of this can be "copied" from SOI. The geography of Anatolia is in big need of a good update for instance, and the only mod that I can think that gets it right, is SOI. I have no idea how Embryodead got the geography in that game so damn correct. The map itself is a piece of art.

The main problem of expanding the map to the east is space for the Moscow state, this was discussed earlier AbsintheRed & merijn_v1.

 

[The Turk]

I didn't say anything about expanding the map eastwards, however expanding it to Iraq would be optimal. The space of Moscow is already wrong, moving it further east will still be wrong, but still make it more correct than it already is. To be clear though, that is NOT what I'm suggesting.

Just that Anatolia, Egypt and the Levant should take inspiration from SOI. IIRC (and this was many years ago), RFCE came out before SOI, and the map of the Middle East has, effectively, not been touched since. It would be best to just copy the geography of SOI.