1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Photobucket has changed its policy concerning hotlinking images and now requires an account with a $399.00 annual fee to allow hotlink. More information is available at: this link.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Dismiss Notice
  7. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Development thread for 1.5

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    Thanks!
    Yeah, it's usually not wise to update if you have an ongoing game.
    I should probably note if a new revision breaks savegames - but sometimes it's hard to predict.
    Ottoman stability was improved recently. They get less instability from Christian religions in their cities, as part of their Janissary UP (I think it was added for 1.4).
    The AI does significantly better now, but for the human player stability is still too hard. The difference is that the human player goes for the UHVs, while the AI takes it's time, and expands more slowly.

    So I agree, some further adjustements will have to be made.
    Maybe something along the lines of adding extra stability on the conquest of Constantinople, along with a cool new flavor popup? The palace is already moved there.
     
  2. Force44

    Force44 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Messages:
    477
    Location:
    The Low Countries
    I would consider that to be a real nice narrative for granting Ottoman bonus stability.

    ~

    also:


    In the latest update (SVN 1263) the problem (Scots refusing to spawn) did not occur.

     
  3. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    938
    That could be nice to add for any civ tbh. A bonus of +10 stability for capturing Constantinople and moving your palace there, to reflect being the inheritor of the Roman Empire. Would obviously only be really beneficial to civs which spawn around there and so can capture it without collapsing, but nice for Bulgaria, Ottomans, Hungary maybe Muscovy as well?
     
  4. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    Great! Thanks for checking.
    Wouldn't make too much sense to Venice or Genoa though.
    And they are the most likely conquerors (besides the Ottomans of course) with the derailed Crusades.
     
    The Turk likes this.
  5. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,902
    Location:
    Canada
    Maybe do what SoI does with their Roman Emperor title and require controlling some other cities/provinces in the area as well, to make it harder for Venice/Genoa to grab it? You could easily rationalize them getting the title if you think of the Latin Empire as a vassal/extension of their empire though.
     
  6. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,142
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    No, this not a problem just for the Ottomans, this is a problem for ALL civs in the game. When played by the human, and especially when requiring conquest heavy UHVs, collapse is almost certain. I highly recommend you take a look again at the stability code, and perhaps decrease for everyone the stability hit when conquering provinces not of your culture/religion. Currently it is way too high it seems, that I could collapse only 20 years into the game. This happened to me playing as Spain, France, Arabs as well, so it has nothing to do with the Ottomans alone.

    And yes, the Ottoman AI is fine with stability, this is a human issue alone.
     
  7. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Leipzig, Germany
    I highly disagree that the situation is that bad. I never collpased as France and have to be a little careful with Arabia. I can't even imagine what you are doing with Spain to have it collapsing. Even with Denmark which has to conquer the most border areas in the shortest amount of time I have hardly problems with stability.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    This.
    If anything, stability is too easy for most civs.

    @The Turk Simply don't overextend.
    Take your time for those conquests, AFAIK all of them are more than doable in their current forms.
     
  9. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,142
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    I'm simply expanding to historical regions. For Spain: Naples, for Arabia, Ottomans, Franks, its to achieve the UHV. You don't have time to sit around, you have to conquer. I don't see what the problem is with making stability for conquest heavy civs a bit easier. Once you collapse as a human, its game over.
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    As I said, I didn't experience that much difficulties with most of those civs with the latest revisions.
    Sure, they are the among the harder civs, but even those UHVs are far from being impossible if you manage/time your conquests well.
     
  11. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    I'm not sure if I want to tie it to the (claim of the) Emperor title.
    I don't think it resulted in +stability for Venice, probably on the contrary. Maybe some indirect stability gain through better trade, but that's already represented in the game.
     
  12. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,902
    Location:
    Canada
    Well, you could say that they didn't conquer enough to cement their "claim" to the title (e.g. failed to properly defeat Nicaea), so they didn't get the bonus. Ingame, AFAIK Venice/Genoa are unlikely to conquer much past Constantinople, so normally they wouldn't get the bonus. I imagine that the instability from controlling all those unstable provinces (if you make it tougher than just controlling Constantinople) would negate that bonus if they were to work for it.
     
  13. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    938
    True, but neither of those tend to have much stability issues in my experience, so it wouldn't influence their games much.

    It would allow for a Latin Empire style thing - particularly for Genoa which can be vulnerable to having its capital steamrolled by Germany or Burgundy if they get too strong. With a stability boost from Constantinople they could achieve their UHVs from exile, so to speak.

    Although it we don't like that one, maybe something like building a palace in Constantinople turns all foreign provinces in Anatolia and the Balkans into border provinces, or removes stability penalties from expanding in those regions? That would help the Ottomans, and also civs like Bulgaria which can struggle a bit with stability when achieving their first UHV.

    Likewise, even on Emperor I've not found stability to be too challenging. Particularly with the starting changes for France you have plenty of time to put chateaus in every city before building units so stability is fine. Arabia should be fine if we let them start with Farriers and militarism, although Ottomans could do with a boost.
     
  14. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    2,142
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    @AbsintheRed , ever thought of adding SoI titles to the game? Some ideas:

    Emperor (Tsar) of all the Russias
    Holy Roman Emperor
    Roman Emperor
    Caliph (pre-1258), Khadim al-Haramain (post-1171)
    Caliph of Cordoba

    I'm sure there are others! Each of them could give a bit of stability. This would be especially helpful for the Holy Roman Emperor.
     
  15. Chep

    Chep Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Somewhere in Europe
    I have to say, I always really enjoyed this mod, so I fired up a game on SVN 1226 (most current, right?), but I have to say events like this just make me go back to other games/mods instantly.



    Spoiler :





    I literally just started this run, had to waste a few turns to build ships and then boom, lost half my army because the stability mechanic is at the very least missleading. Having a city you just conquered declare its independence with all your troops inside the turn you conquer it is extremely annoying.
     
  16. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    938
    Most current version is 1263 so you are playing with a very outdated version if you are at 1226.

    With regards to the stability, the -6 shown on the screen will probably be your stability at the start of the turn, whilst the +1 you see on the stability screen is the current figure after it has declared independence. So you were unstable before Sevilla declared independence, but now it has gone you are now stable.

    Given that Malaqah is unhappy and unhealthy, Sevilla was almost certainly unhappy and unhealthy when you conquered it. So you get -2 stability from a city with less than 20% culture, -2 for an unhappy city, -1 for a unhealthy city and -2 for a city in a contested province (all from the stability guide). Net result = -7 from capturing Sevilla, so +7 stability when Sevilla declares its independence.

    In general, stability for Morocco needs some improving, but you are asking for trouble conquering large cities without having developed your core and having sufficient resources to keep them happy and healthy. Try waiting until Malaqah is out of revolt and is happy and healthy before capturing Sevilla - the health from the fish in Malaqah will help, but you will need to spend a bit more time hooking up resources in your core and building stability buildings before going for Iberia.
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    I think Swarbs said almost anything I would have.

    One more thing: stability checks for city independence are not done on each turn.
    It's also random even if when it's checked, based on the stability.
    So with -20 stability you will have more than 90% chance, but with -6 you only had around 10-15%
    This was a rather unlucky roll, especially at your first play after quite a while...

    While expanding should be hard, the game is not that punishing :)
    Do try to develop your core area more before you move on to other targets.
    You only have 4 cities in Morocco, and probably even those are without stability boosting buildings (either direct or indirect).
    Also there are surely some missed resources there, +health and +happiness in your cities is always a good idea.
     
  18. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    7,895
    Location:
    Szeged, Hungary
    The main screen stability counted should be refreshed more often though.
    You are absolutely right in that, it's very misleading in some cases.
     
  19. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Budapest, Hungary
    Well, i am happy that u r back and hope u will stay regardless of this bad omen.
    Morocco's first uhv is tricky anyway. And stability is its biggest challange. Making peace cordoba helps. Collapsing them equal victory and having ibiza is unnessery (get it for 2 turns only)

    So dont give up!
     
  20. Chep

    Chep Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Somewhere in Europe
    okay, I fired up the SVN again, it downloaded a single file (40kb) and told me I'm at 1263, so either that was a display-bug earlier or there havent been any large changes since 1226^^.

    The issue with Morocco is:

    You start with a huge army (I already disbanded 5 or 6 units and still had something like 8 or 10 decent offensive units left, not counting city defenders). And it seems you're not allowed to do literally anything with it (because it takes >100 years to properly develop your lands so you can actually take cities from Cordoba, it seems). I'd recommend scaling down their starting units and maybe instead increasing their growth and give them possibly a settler more.


    ---------------------------

    Tried a game with Scotland to compare. And they can seemingly just do what they want. I conquered and razed and conquered and yet my stability was always +10 or higher. However, there I ran in the issue that France wouldn't sign a defensive pact with me "because my lands are too far away". Awesomesauce. And they vasallized England around 1200 AD. Despite me playing like their little lapdog (selling them 7+ resources, being on "friendly" since before 1100AD and joining every war of theirs within 1-2 turns) I was only at around 1000 relation points with them in 1500 AD. Also, what's the point of building the forts? I mean it's cool that they have a unique goal, but...I just dont get why I should use my workers to essentially do nothing for half a century.
    Also weird: I had countries declare war on me for seemingly no reason at all. Countries like Genoa or Arabia, that really have no interest in my lands, at all. Not that it was an issue, they never sent any units my way (except maybe a single ship), but it just felt weird.


    Playing Byzantium still is fun. But the AI tech speed on Emperor seems a little off.

    Either way, maybe it's just me, I dont seem to have as much fun playing this mod as I used to. And compared to games like EU4 the limitations of the civ-engine start to show here and there.
     

Share This Page