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Development thread for 1.5

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Changing the Ottoman UHVs may be enough to address the issue of needing to reach Egypt in time, but I still think an earlier start date is more historical, both for the capital and for the start of their rise.

    No you can't that has been removed in the latest SVN.

    You may face a few Bajoras and Ushkuiks, but you face far more Keshiks. The whole point of the Boyar is to help you with your first UHV, by the time you move on to the second and third you will be pushing towards Cannons and Musketeers.
     
  2. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    True
     
  3. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Morocco is still badly broken.

    It's impossible for them to conquer Ifriqiya, Andalusia and Valencia by 1227AD without going unstable and collapsing. Possible solutions:

    1. Kasbah should add +1 stability to balance out the amount of foreign territory
    2. Make Andalusia and Valencia potentially stable regions, as they had been Islamic for around five centuries by that time
    3. Move the UHV date back to 1269AD. I appreciate this is the fall of the Almohads, but that is the same as for other similar UHVs e.g. England's conquest UHV being to the end of the HYW, Prussia's being the Battle of Grunwald etc. Gives another 14 turns to build Manor Houses etc before the mad dash to grab 6-7 unstable cities in Iberia
     
  4. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Also I don't think civs should start at war with the AI. All that achieves is to ruin the start, as the AI gets a free turn to attack ships and units that are in a bad position. England and the Netherlands regularly get hit by this - their starting navies are completely vulnerable and often wiped out on the first turn if the AI starts at war. The only real option then is to restart as you are crippled without the starting forces.

    I think the uncertainty should be taken out of the start in this regard - you should always start at peace with all AI nations, but should always get a DOW if you flip one of their cities. This would make the start a bit more predictable and balanced, and make it less likely to have to restart as you are wiped out on turn one.
     
  5. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    I like those ideas. On a related note, is it possible to make a completely "neutral" province? No penalty for controlling a city or cities in certain provinces.

    An issue I remember having with potentially stable provinces is that they change to the "green" border provinces, but they remain so (which causes instability, especially if you lose the city). It has been a while since I last played though.
     
  6. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Fixed this as well, it was related to the issue in the other thread.
     
  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Just wanted a post about this:
    Tested it again, and seems to work as intended.
    So on small islands in your cultural borders, the matching improvement and a road connects resources to your trade network.
    Without the need to settle the island, or put a fort on the resource. So you can get the extra yield from the resource, if it's worked by a city on the nearby landmass.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Changed the promotion, but I think I will leave them as heavy cavalry. They are more parallel with the western knights in their current representation.
    Maybe it would be better to replace them with a proper UU (Boyars are a little stretch as a separate military unit IMO), which could be a light cavalry, filling the role you described in the post.
    I really dislike the thought to spawn the civ that close to the Constantinople. There would only be 2 tiles between the capitals.
    IIRC that was one of the main reasons in the first place why they spawn at Gallipoli instead.
    With the other one being in a better position to go for the Balkans as well.
    While I appreciate the thought behind it, would like to solve the overpowered enemies problem in a different way.
    On the other hand, will implement those UHV changes, I like both suggestions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
    Rafaelito likes this.
  9. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    The problem with that is Muscovy didn't really have an equivalent of western knights. The Rus' use of heavy cavalry largely ended with the fall of Kiev and the resulting wars with the Mongols.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...TAI#v=onepage&q=muscovy light cavalry&f=false

    "These gentry warriors, shaped by Russia's centuries of steppe warfare, fought as lightly armoured cavalry...their equipment, their small horses and their rudimentary organisation made them incapable of the shock charge with couched lances typical of European heavy cavalry"

    Regardless of what we call them, Muscovy's UU should replace the knight with a similar, albeit maybe slightly less powerful, light cavalry unit. Pomestie is one possible name for them - they were the members of the army who received land in Muscovy similar to western knights, with the similar obligation to fight but without the traditions of jousting which contributed to heavy armour and lance charges.

    That seems reasonable for city placement, although Gallipoli is on the other side of the Hellespont, so it's still a bit ahistorical imo. Of course that location is too close to Adrianople / Edirne, so also not ideal.

    The major issue, I think, at the moment is that the Ottomans spawn quite late. In the 1200AD scenario their enemies aren't overpowered, it's only a question of the amount of time needed to conquer so many cities.

    They only flip cities in Asia Minor, but they controlled these cities in 1326 so there is no real need for them to spawn ten turns later. So I think they should still spawn at 1326 - it's their historical rise and gives a bit more time to achieve a tough first UHV. Three ways to do it I can see:

    1. Just rename Gallipoli to Bursa. It's obviously not in its historical location, being one tile out, but then that's the same issue with Gallipoli
    2. Move Bursa one tile SE onto the plains hill. That way it is a bit more historically positioned, as Bursa isn't right on the coast
    3. Rename the starting capital to Abydos / Cannakale. It's in the right position albeit either ahistorically important for the Ottomans in the case of Abydos, or quite early in the case of Cannakale which was built in around 1460

    Imo whichever of those options is chosen it is better, and more historical, to have the Ottomans spawn at 1326AD. A bit more time makes the first UHV less dependent on lucky rolls and avoids the need to try and nerf any enemies to make the UHV consistently achievable.
     
  10. jekke

    jekke Warlord

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    Although my russian is not perfect, I am pretty sure pomestie is rather a manor house, or maybe hacienda/rancho in spanish, but definitely not people. Regarding the unit name in the game, I do like boyars and do not mind if they were mounted units, if their UHV requires so.
     
  11. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Yes, pomeshchiki is probably the more appropriate term - the owner of the land. Basically a late Russian feudal system where pomestie were granted to the pomeshchiki in exchange for military service.

    Regardless of the name, the main criteria, imo, is that the Russian equivalent of the knight should be light cavalry. This is what makes the a unique unit - the Rus lost much of their heavy cavalry capabilities and the associated chivalric concepts after the Mongol invasions. The resulting cavalry forces were largely light steppe warriors fighting hit and run battles rather than heavy cavalry charging with lances.

    Therefore if we want an accurate representation of the Muscovy military, they should have no significant heavy cavalry units at the time, but rather a large body of light cavalry.
     
  12. jekke

    jekke Warlord

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    I guess we agree on the light cavalry issue. Then how about Konnitsa for their name? Is it too close to Bulgarian Konniks?
     
  13. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Is that not too generic? I would say that Konnitsa is more used to refer to later era cavalry, curaissers and hussars in the mod timeline. Haven't seen it used to refer specifically to the early Muscovite era light cavalry.
     
  14. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Getting a persistent crash as Norway at 1107AD on the attached save. SVN1275, crashes when I hit end turn. Not sure what's causing it - PythonErr2.log is copied below but doesn't seem to have much useful in it.

    Spoiler Error log :

    sys.path = ['..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\email', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\encodings', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\build', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\py', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\colourchooser', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\editor', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\floatcanvas', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\masked', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\mixins', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\ogl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\af', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ca', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\cs', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\da', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\de', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\el', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\es', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\eu', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fi', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fr', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hi', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hu', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\id', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\it', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ja', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\lv', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nb', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pt_BR', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ru', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sv', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\tr', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\uk', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_CN', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_TW', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\af\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ca\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\cs\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\da\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\de\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\el\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\es\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\eu\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fi\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fr\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hi\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hu\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\id\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\it\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ja\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\lv\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nb\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nl\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pl\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pt_BR\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ru\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sl\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sv\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\tr\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\uk\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_CN\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_TW\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\py\\tests', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools\\XRCed', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools\\XRCed\\src-images', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM']

    sys.modules = {'zipimport': <module 'zipimport' (built-in)>, 'signal': <module 'signal' (built-in)>, '__builtin__': <module '__builtin__' (built-in)>, 'sys': <module 'sys' (built-in)>, '__main__': <module '__main__' (built-in)>, 'exceptions': <module 'exceptions' (built-in)>, 'CvPythonExtensions': <module 'CvPythonExtensions' (built-in)>}

    sys.builtin_module_names = ('CvPythonExtensions', '__builtin__', '__main__', '_bisect', '_codecs', '_codecs_cn', '_codecs_hk', '_codecs_iso2022', '_codecs_jp', '_codecs_kr', '_codecs_tw', '_csv', '_heapq', '_hotshot', '_locale', '_multibytecodec', '_random', '_sre', '_subprocess', '_symtable', '_weakref', '_winreg', 'array', 'audioop', 'binascii', 'cPickle', 'cStringIO', 'cmath', 'collections', 'datetime', 'errno', 'exceptions', 'gc', 'imageop', 'imp', 'itertools', 'marshal', 'math', 'md5', 'mmap', 'msvcrt', 'nt', 'operator', 'parser', 'regex', 'rgbimg', 'sha', 'signal', 'strop', 'struct', 'sys', 'thread', 'time', 'xxsubtype', 'zipimport')
    load_module CvEventInterface
    load_module CvUtil
    load_module traceback
    load_module CvRFCEventManager
    load_module CvEventManager
    load_module CvScreensInterface
    load_module CvMainInterface
    load_module ScreenInput
    load_module CvScreenEnums
    load_module time
    load_module Consts
    load_module XMLConsts
    load_module RFCUtils
    load_module RFCEMaps
    load_module PyHelpers
    load_module Popup
    load_module StoredData
    load_module cPickle
    load_module CvMercenaryManager
    load_module Mercenaries
    load_module math
    load_module CvMercenaryScreensEnums
    load_module CvGameInterface
    load_module CvGameUtils
    load_module Stability
    load_module RiseAndFall
    load_module CvTranslator
    load_module re
    load_module ProvinceManager
    load_module Religions
    load_module Victory
    load_module Crusades
    load_module CityNameManager
    load_module random
    load_module UniquePowers
    load_module CvGameInterfaceFile
    load_module CvDomesticAdvisor
    load_module CvTechChooser
    load_module CvForeignAdvisor
    load_module CvExoticForeignAdvisor
    load_module IconGrid
    load_module DomPyHelpers
    load_module TechTree
    load_module CvMilitaryAdvisor
    load_module CvFinanceAdvisor
    load_module CvReligionScreen
    load_module CvCorporationScreen
    load_module CvCivicsScreen
    load_module CvVictoryScreen
    load_module CvEspionageAdvisor
    load_module CvOptionsScreen
    load_module CvReplayScreen
    load_module CvHallOfFameScreen
    load_module CvDanQuayle
    load_module CvUnVictoryScreen
    load_module CvDawnOfMan
    load_module CvTechSplashScreen
    load_module string
    load_module CvTopCivs
    load_module CvInfoScreen
    load_module CvIntroMovieScreen
    load_module CvVictoryMovieScreen
    load_module CvWonderMovieScreen
    load_module CvEraMovieScreen
    load_module CvSpaceShipScreen
    load_module CvPediaMain
    load_module CvPediaScreen
    load_module CvScreen
    load_module CvPediaTech
    load_module CvPediaUnit
    load_module CvPediaBuilding
    load_module CvPediaPromotion
    load_module CvPediaUnitChart
    load_module CvPediaBonus
    load_module CvPediaTerrain
    load_module CvPediaFeature
    load_module CvPediaImprovement
    load_module CvPediaCivic
    load_module CvPediaCivilization
    load_module CvPediaLeader
    load_module CvPediaSpecialist
    load_module CvPediaHistory
    load_module CvPediaProject
    load_module CvPediaReligion
    load_module CvPediaCorporation
    load_module CvWorldBuilderScreen
    load_module RFCEMapUtil
    load_module CvWorldBuilderDiplomacyScreen
    load_module CvDebugTools
    load_module CvDebugInfoScreen
    load_module CvMapGeneratorUtil
    load_module CvGFCScreen
    load_module CvPopupInterface
    load_module CvScreenUtilsInterface
    load_module CvScreenUtils
    init-ing world builder screen
    load_module CvWBPopups
    load_module CvCameraControls
    load_module CvAdvisorUtils
    load_module RFCEBalance
    load_module CvRFCEventHandler
    load_module Barbs
    load_module Resources
    load_module AIWars
    load_module Plague
    load_module Companies
    load_module operator
    load_module DataLoader
    PY:OnInit
    load_module CvAppInterface



    Can't find any other relevant log files in my BTS directory, if there's another more useful one please let me know where to find it.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. jekke

    jekke Warlord

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    Well, I read a bit on the topic, and you were right about pomestie being the key word here. The most often used term for the cavalry is "pomestnaya konnitsa". However, this image suggests Oprichnik is also a viable option.
     
  16. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Thanks, found the error!
    Do you want a save from the next turn?
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Following this topic too.
    There is one more thing to consider: available art.
    I think the current Boyar art is great, but it's definitely closer to a heavy cavalry unit.
    Fortunately we have a good number of top quality Slavic units by Bakuel, so we can find a better light cavalry art.

    Maybe the Boyars could go as a UU for Novgorod, they could use a Knight replacement in the historically correct timespan.
    With Muscovy getting the more fitting light cavalry UU, with the name being whatever we decide in the end.
     
  18. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Yes please!
     
  19. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    That could be good provided Novgorod has an easier accessible source of horse.

    Although in general I think the boyar overlaps a lot with the druzhina of Kievan Rus. After all, boyars in Kiev were simply the most senior of the druzhinas who owned land as well as providing military service. So it could be argued that we already represent that unit in Kiev and it is less unique to also have it across multiple Russian civs.
     
  20. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Sry for the delay, busy week.
    Attached the save.
    Hopefully it will load without any issues (the other work-in-progress changes in my version shouldn't have any effect on your game).
     

    Attached Files:

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