Development thread for 1.5

[Swarbs]

Not yet sure on the Ottoman start, otherwise ok.

Changing the Ottoman UHVs may be enough to address the issue of needing to reach Egypt in time, but I still think an earlier start date is more historical, both for the capital and for the start of their rise.

I partly disagree on Boyars. Early on you fight Bajoras and Ushuiks, both melee, Boyars were against them, and works fine. Later you can still use them as rush&defend since they get def bonus.
+1 for Byz imperial

No you can't that has been removed in the latest SVN.

You may face a few Bajoras and Ushkuiks, but you face far more Keshiks. The whole point of the Boyar is to help you with your first UHV, by the time you move on to the second and third you will be pushing towards Cannons and Musketeers.

 

[gilgames]

True

 

[Swarbs]

Morocco is still badly broken.

It's impossible for them to conquer Ifriqiya, Andalusia and Valencia by 1227AD without going unstable and collapsing. Possible solutions:

1. Kasbah should add +1 stability to balance out the amount of foreign territory
2. Make Andalusia and Valencia potentially stable regions, as they had been Islamic for around five centuries by that time
3. Move the UHV date back to 1269AD. I appreciate this is the fall of the Almohads, but that is the same as for other similar UHVs e.g. England's conquest UHV being to the end of the HYW, Prussia's being the Battle of Grunwald etc. Gives another 14 turns to build Manor Houses etc before the mad dash to grab 6-7 unstable cities in Iberia

 

[Swarbs]

Also I don't think civs should start at war with the AI. All that achieves is to ruin the start, as the AI gets a free turn to attack ships and units that are in a bad position. England and the Netherlands regularly get hit by this - their starting navies are completely vulnerable and often wiped out on the first turn if the AI starts at war. The only real option then is to restart as you are crippled without the starting forces.

I think the uncertainty should be taken out of the start in this regard - you should always start at peace with all AI nations, but should always get a DOW if you flip one of their cities. This would make the start a bit more predictable and balanced, and make it less likely to have to restart as you are wiped out on turn one.

 

[Baron03]

Morocco is still badly broken.

It's impossible for them to conquer Ifriqiya, Andalusia and Valencia by 1227AD without going unstable and collapsing. Possible solutions:

1. Kasbah should add +1 stability to balance out the amount of foreign territory
2. Make Andalusia and Valencia potentially stable regions, as they had been Islamic for around five centuries by that time
3. Move the UHV date back to 1269AD. I appreciate this is the fall of the Almohads, but that is the same as for other similar UHVs e.g. England's conquest UHV being to the end of the HYW, Prussia's being the Battle of Grunwald etc. Gives another 14 turns to build Manor Houses etc before the mad dash to grab 6-7 unstable cities in Iberia

I like those ideas. On a related note, is it possible to make a completely "neutral" province? No penalty for controlling a city or cities in certain provinces.

An issue I remember having with potentially stable provinces is that they change to the "green" border provinces, but they remain so (which causes instability, especially if you lose the city). It has been a while since I last played though.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Finding a bug in the 1200AD scenario - playing as Sweden when I discover Printing Press and embrace the reformation it doesn't work. I end up with only my 3/4 largest cities having Protestantism and my religion still being Catholic. Doesn't seem to happen if another civ discovers PP, as when I played as the Netherlands there was a good balance of Cat and Prot civs after autoplay.

Fixed this as well, it was related to the issue in the other thread.

 

[AbsintheRed]

But I learned - others correct me - a salt mine on the Isle of Man doesn't give salt but a fort did put it into my available resources. Forts did shave off a few turns for boats to cross.

It's a bug if the Quarry improvement didn't connect the island to your trade network.
Actually I recently added a similar function to Realim Invictus, and I'm pretty sure it works there correctly.

Just wanted a post about this:
Tested it again, and seems to work as intended.
So on small islands in your cultural borders, the matching improvement and a road connects resources to your trade network.
Without the need to settle the island, or put a fort on the resource. So you can get the extra yield from the resource, if it's worked by a city on the nearby landmass.

 

[AbsintheRed]

1. Give Boyars the Ambush promotion instead of the Shock promotion. That would give them an advantage over Keshiks and make them useful again rather than just being slightly adjusted Knights which are available far too late.
2. Make them light cavalry, as that was contemporary with the Russian army of the time:

Changed the promotion, but I think I will leave them as heavy cavalry. They are more parallel with the western knights in their current representation.
Maybe it would be better to replace them with a proper UU (Boyars are a little stretch as a separate military unit IMO), which could be a light cavalry, filling the role you described in the post.

1. I would propose starting the Ottomans in 1326AD, ten turns earlier, to reflect the capture of Bursa, as that was, imo, a more important point in the emergence of the Ottomans than the fall of Gallipoli. Move their start point one tile east and have them found Bursa in 1326 then flip the same area
2. Amalgamate the first two UHVs into one - control Selim's empire by 1517AD. Gives much more flexibility to conquer different parts of the empire in turn rather than just rush Europe then rush to Egype
3. Add a new 2nd UHV to build Topkapi Palace and the Tomb of Al-Walid. The present tomb was extensively rebuilt by the Ottomans, so this would have a degree of historical accuracy, particularly given the late age techs it requires for building. Also consider adding the Blue Mosque as another Islamic wonder also in the UHV

I really dislike the thought to spawn the civ that close to the Constantinople. There would only be 2 tiles between the capitals.
IIRC that was one of the main reasons in the first place why they spawn at Gallipoli instead.
With the other one being in a better position to go for the Balkans as well.
While I appreciate the thought behind it, would like to solve the overpowered enemies problem in a different way.
On the other hand, will implement those UHV changes, I like both suggestions.

 

[Swarbs]

Changed the promotion, but I think I will leave them as heavy cavalry. They are more parallel with the western knights in their current representation.
Maybe it would be better to replace them with a proper UU (Boyars are a little stretch as a separate military unit IMO), which could be a light cavalry, filling the role you described in the post.

The problem with that is Muscovy didn't really have an equivalent of western knights. The Rus' use of heavy cavalry largely ended with the fall of Kiev and the resulting wars with the Mongols.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...TAI#v=onepage&q=muscovy light cavalry&f=false

"These gentry warriors, shaped by Russia's centuries of steppe warfare, fought as lightly armoured cavalry...their equipment, their small horses and their rudimentary organisation made them incapable of the shock charge with couched lances typical of European heavy cavalry"

Regardless of what we call them, Muscovy's UU should replace the knight with a similar, albeit maybe slightly less powerful, light cavalry unit. Pomestie is one possible name for them - they were the members of the army who received land in Muscovy similar to western knights, with the similar obligation to fight but without the traditions of jousting which contributed to heavy armour and lance charges.

I really dislike the thought to spawn the civ that close to the Constantinople. There would only be 2 tiles between the capitals.
IIRC that was one of the main reasons in the first place why they spawn at Gallipoli instead.
With the other one being in a better position to go for the Balkans as well.
While I appreciate the thought behind it, would like to solve the overpowered enemies problem in a different way.
On the other hand, will implement those UHV changes, I like both suggestions.

That seems reasonable for city placement, although Gallipoli is on the other side of the Hellespont, so it's still a bit ahistorical imo. Of course that location is too close to Adrianople / Edirne, so also not ideal.

The major issue, I think, at the moment is that the Ottomans spawn quite late. In the 1200AD scenario their enemies aren't overpowered, it's only a question of the amount of time needed to conquer so many cities.

They only flip cities in Asia Minor, but they controlled these cities in 1326 so there is no real need for them to spawn ten turns later. So I think they should still spawn at 1326 - it's their historical rise and gives a bit more time to achieve a tough first UHV. Three ways to do it I can see:

1. Just rename Gallipoli to Bursa. It's obviously not in its historical location, being one tile out, but then that's the same issue with Gallipoli
2. Move Bursa one tile SE onto the plains hill. That way it is a bit more historically positioned, as Bursa isn't right on the coast
3. Rename the starting capital to Abydos / Cannakale. It's in the right position albeit either ahistorically important for the Ottomans in the case of Abydos, or quite early in the case of Cannakale which was built in around 1460

Imo whichever of those options is chosen it is better, and more historical, to have the Ottomans spawn at 1326AD. A bit more time makes the first UHV less dependent on lucky rolls and avoids the need to try and nerf any enemies to make the UHV consistently achievable.

 

[jekke]

Regardless of what we call them, Muscovy's UU should replace the knight with a similar, albeit maybe slightly less powerful, light cavalry unit. Pomestie is one possible name for them - they were the members of the army who received land in Muscovy similar to western knights, with the similar obligation to fight but without the traditions of jousting which contributed to heavy armour and lance charges.

Although my russian is not perfect, I am pretty sure pomestie is rather a manor house, or maybe hacienda/rancho in spanish, but definitely not people. Regarding the unit name in the game, I do like boyars and do not mind if they were mounted units, if their UHV requires so.

 

[Swarbs]

Although my russian is not perfect, I am pretty sure pomestie is rather a manor house, or maybe hacienda/rancho in spanish, but definitely not people. Regarding the unit name in the game, I do like boyars and do not mind if they were mounted units, if their UHV requires so.

Yes, pomeshchiki is probably the more appropriate term - the owner of the land. Basically a late Russian feudal system where pomestie were granted to the pomeshchiki in exchange for military service.

Regardless of the name, the main criteria, imo, is that the Russian equivalent of the knight should be light cavalry. This is what makes the a unique unit - the Rus lost much of their heavy cavalry capabilities and the associated chivalric concepts after the Mongol invasions. The resulting cavalry forces were largely light steppe warriors fighting hit and run battles rather than heavy cavalry charging with lances.

Therefore if we want an accurate representation of the Muscovy military, they should have no significant heavy cavalry units at the time, but rather a large body of light cavalry.

 

[jekke]

Yes, pomeshchiki is probably the more appropriate term - the owner of the land. Basically a late Russian feudal system where pomestie were granted to the pomeshchiki in exchange for military service.

Regardless of the name, the main criteria, imo, is that the Russian equivalent of the knight should be light cavalry. This is what makes the a unique unit - the Rus lost much of their heavy cavalry capabilities and the associated chivalric concepts after the Mongol invasions. The resulting cavalry forces were largely light steppe warriors fighting hit and run battles rather than heavy cavalry charging with lances.

Therefore if we want an accurate representation of the Muscovy military, they should have no significant heavy cavalry units at the time, but rather a large body of light cavalry.

I guess we agree on the light cavalry issue. Then how about Konnitsa for their name? Is it too close to Bulgarian Konniks?

 

[Swarbs]

I guess we agree on the light cavalry issue. Then how about Konnitsa for their name? Is it too close to Bulgarian Konniks?

Is that not too generic? I would say that Konnitsa is more used to refer to later era cavalry, curaissers and hussars in the mod timeline. Haven't seen it used to refer specifically to the early Muscovite era light cavalry.

 

[Swarbs]

Getting a persistent crash as Norway at 1107AD on the attached save. SVN1275, crashes when I hit end turn. Not sure what's causing it - PythonErr2.log is copied below but doesn't seem to have much useful in it.

Spoiler Error log :

sys.path = ['..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\email', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\encodings', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\build', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\py', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\colourchooser', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\editor', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\floatcanvas', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\masked', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\mixins', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\lib\\ogl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\af', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ca', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\cs', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\da', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\de', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\el', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\es', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\eu', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fi', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fr', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hi', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hu', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\id', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\it', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ja', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\lv', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nb', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pt_BR', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ru', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sl', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sv', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\tr', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\uk', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_CN', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_TW', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\af\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ca\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\cs\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\da\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\de\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\el\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\es\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\eu\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fi\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\fr\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hi\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\hu\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\id\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\it\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ja\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\lv\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nb\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\nl\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pl\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\pt_BR\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\ru\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sl\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\sv\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\tr\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\uk\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_CN\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\locale\\zh_TW\\LC_MESSAGES', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\py\\tests', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools\\XRCed', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM\\wx\\tools\\XRCed\\src-images', '..\\WARLORDS\\ASSETS\\PYTHON\\SYSTEM']

sys.modules = {'zipimport': <module 'zipimport' (built-in)>, 'signal': <module 'signal' (built-in)>, '__builtin__': <module '__builtin__' (built-in)>, 'sys': <module 'sys' (built-in)>, '__main__': <module '__main__' (built-in)>, 'exceptions': <module 'exceptions' (built-in)>, 'CvPythonExtensions': <module 'CvPythonExtensions' (built-in)>}

sys.builtin_module_names = ('CvPythonExtensions', '__builtin__', '__main__', '_bisect', '_codecs', '_codecs_cn', '_codecs_hk', '_codecs_iso2022', '_codecs_jp', '_codecs_kr', '_codecs_tw', '_csv', '_heapq', '_hotshot', '_locale', '_multibytecodec', '_random', '_sre', '_subprocess', '_symtable', '_weakref', '_winreg', 'array', 'audioop', 'binascii', 'cPickle', 'cStringIO', 'cmath', 'collections', 'datetime', 'errno', 'exceptions', 'gc', 'imageop', 'imp', 'itertools', 'marshal', 'math', 'md5', 'mmap', 'msvcrt', 'nt', 'operator', 'parser', 'regex', 'rgbimg', 'sha', 'signal', 'strop', 'struct', 'sys', 'thread', 'time', 'xxsubtype', 'zipimport')
load_module CvEventInterface
load_module CvUtil
load_module traceback
load_module CvRFCEventManager
load_module CvEventManager
load_module CvScreensInterface
load_module CvMainInterface
load_module ScreenInput
load_module CvScreenEnums
load_module time
load_module Consts
load_module XMLConsts
load_module RFCUtils
load_module RFCEMaps
load_module PyHelpers
load_module Popup
load_module StoredData
load_module cPickle
load_module CvMercenaryManager
load_module Mercenaries
load_module math
load_module CvMercenaryScreensEnums
load_module CvGameInterface
load_module CvGameUtils
load_module Stability
load_module RiseAndFall
load_module CvTranslator
load_module re
load_module ProvinceManager
load_module Religions
load_module Victory
load_module Crusades
load_module CityNameManager
load_module random
load_module UniquePowers
load_module CvGameInterfaceFile
load_module CvDomesticAdvisor
load_module CvTechChooser
load_module CvForeignAdvisor
load_module CvExoticForeignAdvisor
load_module IconGrid
load_module DomPyHelpers
load_module TechTree
load_module CvMilitaryAdvisor
load_module CvFinanceAdvisor
load_module CvReligionScreen
load_module CvCorporationScreen
load_module CvCivicsScreen
load_module CvVictoryScreen
load_module CvEspionageAdvisor
load_module CvOptionsScreen
load_module CvReplayScreen
load_module CvHallOfFameScreen
load_module CvDanQuayle
load_module CvUnVictoryScreen
load_module CvDawnOfMan
load_module CvTechSplashScreen
load_module string
load_module CvTopCivs
load_module CvInfoScreen
load_module CvIntroMovieScreen
load_module CvVictoryMovieScreen
load_module CvWonderMovieScreen
load_module CvEraMovieScreen
load_module CvSpaceShipScreen
load_module CvPediaMain
load_module CvPediaScreen
load_module CvScreen
load_module CvPediaTech
load_module CvPediaUnit
load_module CvPediaBuilding
load_module CvPediaPromotion
load_module CvPediaUnitChart
load_module CvPediaBonus
load_module CvPediaTerrain
load_module CvPediaFeature
load_module CvPediaImprovement
load_module CvPediaCivic
load_module CvPediaCivilization
load_module CvPediaLeader
load_module CvPediaSpecialist
load_module CvPediaHistory
load_module CvPediaProject
load_module CvPediaReligion
load_module CvPediaCorporation
load_module CvWorldBuilderScreen
load_module RFCEMapUtil
load_module CvWorldBuilderDiplomacyScreen
load_module CvDebugTools
load_module CvDebugInfoScreen
load_module CvMapGeneratorUtil
load_module CvGFCScreen
load_module CvPopupInterface
load_module CvScreenUtilsInterface
load_module CvScreenUtils
init-ing world builder screen
load_module CvWBPopups
load_module CvCameraControls
load_module CvAdvisorUtils
load_module RFCEBalance
load_module CvRFCEventHandler
load_module Barbs
load_module Resources
load_module AIWars
load_module Plague
load_module Companies
load_module operator
load_module DataLoader
PY:OnInit
load_module CvAppInterface

Can't find any other relevant log files in my BTS directory, if there's another more useful one please let me know where to find it.

 

[jekke]

Is that not too generic? I would say that Konnitsa is more used to refer to later era cavalry, curaissers and hussars in the mod timeline. Haven't seen it used to refer specifically to the early Muscovite era light cavalry.

Well, I read a bit on the topic, and you were right about pomestie being the key word here. The most often used term for the cavalry is "pomestnaya konnitsa". However, this image suggests Oprichnik is also a viable option.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Getting a persistent crash as Norway at 1107AD on the attached save. SVN1275, crashes when I hit end turn. Not sure what's causing it - PythonErr2.log is copied below but doesn't seem to have much useful in it.
Can't find any other relevant log files in my BTS directory, if there's another more useful one please let me know where to find it.

Thanks, found the error!
Do you want a save from the next turn?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yes, pomeshchiki is probably the more appropriate term - the owner of the land. Basically a late Russian feudal system where pomestie were granted to the pomeshchiki in exchange for military service.

Regardless of the name, the main criteria, imo, is that the Russian equivalent of the knight should be light cavalry. This is what makes the a unique unit - the Rus lost much of their heavy cavalry capabilities and the associated chivalric concepts after the Mongol invasions. The resulting cavalry forces were largely light steppe warriors fighting hit and run battles rather than heavy cavalry charging with lances.

Therefore if we want an accurate representation of the Muscovy military, they should have no significant heavy cavalry units at the time, but rather a large body of light cavalry.

I guess we agree on the light cavalry issue. Then how about Konnitsa for their name? Is it too close to Bulgarian Konniks?

Is that not too generic? I would say that Konnitsa is more used to refer to later era cavalry, curaissers and hussars in the mod timeline. Haven't seen it used to refer specifically to the early Muscovite era light cavalry.

Well, I read a bit on the topic, and you were right about pomestie being the key word here. The most often used term for the cavalry is "pomestnaya konnitsa". However, this image suggests Oprichnik is also a viable option.

Following this topic too.
There is one more thing to consider: available art.
I think the current Boyar art is great, but it's definitely closer to a heavy cavalry unit.
Fortunately we have a good number of top quality Slavic units by Bakuel, so we can find a better light cavalry art.

Maybe the Boyars could go as a UU for Novgorod, they could use a Knight replacement in the historically correct timespan.
With Muscovy getting the more fitting light cavalry UU, with the name being whatever we decide in the end.

 

[Swarbs]

Thanks, found the error!
Do you want a save from the next turn?

Yes please!

 

[Swarbs]

Following this topic too.
There is one more thing to consider: available art.
I think the current Boyar art is great, but it's definitely closer to a heavy cavalry unit.
Fortunately we have a good number of top quality Slavic units by Bakuel, so we can find a better light cavalry art.

Maybe the Boyars could go as a UU for Novgorod, they could use a Knight replacement in the historically correct timespan.
With Muscovy getting the more fitting light cavalry UU, with the name being whatever we decide in the end.

That could be good provided Novgorod has an easier accessible source of horse.

Although in general I think the boyar overlaps a lot with the druzhina of Kievan Rus. After all, boyars in Kiev were simply the most senior of the druzhinas who owned land as well as providing military service. So it could be argued that we already represent that unit in Kiev and it is less unique to also have it across multiple Russian civs.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yes please!

Sry for the delay, busy week.
Attached the save.
Hopefully it will load without any issues (the other work-in-progress changes in my version shouldn't have any effect on your game).