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DG5 Constitution: General Discussion

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by DaveShack, Jun 5, 2004.

  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Folks, it is time to start a discussion on the particulars of the DG5 ruleset. I would like to organize this using this thread as an anchor for the Constitution discussion, with separate threads for any issues which result in a lot of controversy. This should be a lot more streamlined than the DG4 discussion which had a separate thread for every article.

    Here is my proposal for a starting point. :hammer:

    Code:
    We, the people of Fanatica, in order to create an atmosphere of 
    friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our 
    beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must 
    have an equal voice in the government and ruling of our country, 
    that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people,
    that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to 
    facilitate the active participation of the people and to make 
    possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.
    
    Article A.  All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen 
                Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the 
                right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right 
                to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to 
                representation, the right to seek to redress grievances 
                and the right to vote.
    
    Article B.  Governing rules shall consist of these Articles of the 
                Constitution, such amendments that shall follow and lower
                forms of law that may be implemented. No rule shall be 
                valid that contradicts these Articles excepting an 
                amendment or lower form of law specifically tasked
                to do so.
    
    Article C.  The government will consist of the Executive Branch, 
                Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.
    
    Article D.  The Executive branch is responsible for determining 
                and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
                by thePresident who shall be the primary Designated 
                Player. The President shall take direction from a 
                council of leaders and from other elected and appointed 
                officials via the turnchat instruction thread.
                  1.  The Minister of Internal Affairs shall be 
                      responsible for all domestic and cultural 
                      initiatives, as prescribed by law.
                  2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                      for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, 
                      as prescribed by law.
                  3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                      military strategy and troop activities, as 
                      prescribed by law.
                  4.  The Minister of Trade and Technology shall be 
                      responsible for all tech acquisition and trade 
                      initiatives, as prescribed by law.
                  5.  The Minister of Finance and Labor shall be responsible
                       for the allocation of monies in all forms except as part
                       of trades which fall under the authority of the Minister
                       of Trade and Technology; and for prioritization of
                       worker tasks and assignment of workers to tasks.
    
    Article E.  The Legislative Branch will be the Congress,
                will consists of the entirety of the citizenry and is 
                responsible for the drafting of new Laws.
    
    Article F.  The Judicial Branch will consist of one Chief Justice
                and two Associate Justices. These three justices are 
                tasked with upholding the Constitution and its supporting 
                laws (if any) in a fair and impartial manner as prescribed 
                by law. The Chief Justice shall have the additional 
                responsibility to organize and conduct the affairs of the 
                Judicial Branch.
    
    Article G.  All elected positions shall have a fixed term. The runner
                up in each election (if one exists) shall be the deputy for
                that position.  Any office which is left vacant at the end
                of an election due to no candidates accepting a nomination
                or due to all candidates withdrawing shall be filled by
                appointment by the highest ranking leader of a citizen to
                fill the position.  Any elected position which becomes
                permanently vacant, such that the official will not return,
                shall be filled first by the deputy for that position, or by
                appointment of a citizen to fulfill the remainder of the term.
                Vacant deputy positions shall be filled by appointment by the
                leader of a citizen to fill the deputy position.
    
    Article H.  No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership 
                in the same branch of givernment simultaneously.  No person
                may be a leader of one office and deputy of a different office
                in the same branch simultaneously.  The President and Chief
                Justice may not hold any other elected office or deputy position.
    
    Article I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution
                  1.  The census shall be defined as the average number 
                      of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the
                      contested elections in the most recent general 
                      election.
                  2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution 
                      shall require each of the following:
                    a.  A poll which is open for at least 48 hours, which 
                        states the text of the proposed new section(s), 
                        the text of the section(s) being replaced, and 
                        posing the question in the form of yes / no / 
                        abstain.
                    b.  A majority of yes votes.
                    c.  A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 
                        2/3 the census current at the start of voting on 
                        the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
    
    Article J.  Elected officials must plan and act according to the will 
                of the people.
    
    Article K.  All irreversible game actions must progress during a 
                public turnchat, while reversible game actions(ie build 
                queues) that adhere to legal instruction can be prepared 
                offline.
    
    Article L.  The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatika can never 
                be contrary to the rules and regulations of the 
                Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such 
                constitutional amendments, laws or standards.
    
    Article M.  Commission of any game action by any person other than 
                the Designated Player while carrying out their duties 
                that is not instantly reversible without reloading the 
                save is strictly forbidden.
                  1.  Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation 
                      of Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance 
                      or war to exit the bargain screen. This may be done 
                      but the game must be immediately closed without 
                      saving.
    
    
     
  2. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    I like it, It looks pretty good. I think once the detalis are picked out we can make the precise changes to make the DG much more fun.
     
  3. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I personaly like the Runner-up being the Deputy :)
     
  4. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    Oops. This is an accidental post. I'm going to post my revisions tomorrow, when I have more time.
     
  5. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    That because of the military elections?

    Id add the ability to "sack" deputies for not doing their job, just in case :p That would have to be run by the President however before it went into effect. In turn I think the president should be able to sack people in ther main position for not doing their job.
     
  6. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    I agree with Sarevok that the not-elected contestants, should not be automatic deputies. They weren't elected, meaning they are not the one the citizens want in that office.
     
  7. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I would have to disagree with you on that. Back in Demogame 1-3, Deputies are technicly an elected offical. I personaly want to see the automatic deputization of 2nd placers in the elections to be deputies. In my opinion, it would be a good idea to keep the people's interest still active if they are disgurraged from a loss election. The automadic deputization would modivate the 2nd place canidate to do better when he is a deputy.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    We had a significant problem with appointed deputies, and I think we need to return to the previous method. My biggest problem with appointing deputies was that nobody applied and I didn't feel like leaders should be forcing people who don't want to be deputy by appointing them.
     
  9. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    I have been busy lately, but I've got my criticism (of course I have criticism. How could I not have anything to change? ;) ). Included are the changed articles, with changes in italics.

    Code:
    Article A.  All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen 
                Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the 
                right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right 
                to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to 
                representation, the right to seek to redress grievances, 
                the right to vote, [i]the right to advise officials through polls,
                and the right to recall an official.[/i]
    
    Article D.  The Executive branch is responsible for determining 
                and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
                by the President who shall be the primary Designated 
                Player. The President shall take direction from a 
                council of leaders and from other elected and appointed 
                officials via the turnchat instruction thread.[i]
                  1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                      responsible for all domestic initiatives, as well as
                      the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
                  2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                      for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, 
                      as prescribed by law.
                  3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                      military strategy and troop activities, as 
                      prescribed by law.
                  4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                      trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                      as perscibed by law.
                  5.  The Misister of Technology shall be 
                      responsible for all tech acquisition, as prescribed by law.
                  6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                      keeping of the peace and the construction of wonders.
                  7.  The President, and all his Ministers, are elected on a
                      regular basis by the National Assembly, and may be 
                      recalled by that body, to be replaced by a deputy.[/i]
    
    Article E.  The Legislative Branch will be the [i]National Assembly[/i],
                will consists of the entirety of the citizenry and is 
                responsible for the drafting of new Laws and the election
                of executive, legislative, and judicial officials.[i]
                 1.  The Vice or Deputy President shall preside over the
                     Assembly and the drafting of laws.[/i]
    
    Article F.  The Judicial Branch will consist of one Chief Justice
                and [i]two[/i] Associate Justices. These five justices are 
                tasked with upholding the Constitution and its supporting 
                laws (if any) in a fair and impartial manner as prescribed 
                by law. [i]They have the aditional role of overseeing the 
                term elections impartially, including breaking tie votes.[/i] 
                The Chief Justice shall have the additional responsibility
                to organize and conduct the affairs of the Judicial Branch.
                [i]The justices shall be elected every two terms.[/i]
    
    Article H.  No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership 
                in the same branch of givernment simultaneously.  No person
                may be a leader of one office and deputy of a different office
                in the same branch simultaneously.  The President, [i]Vice 
                President[/i] and Chief Justice may not hold any other 
                elected office or deputy position.
    
    Article J.  Elected officials must plan and act according to the will 
                of the people.  [i]Should they fail to do so, the National
                Assembly may vote to have them recalled and replaced by
                their deputy.[/i]
    
    Overall seems quite good, short, and simple, but I think it needs to be a little more specific than that. I mean, forgetting to say who is an elected official is a little too simple. ;)
     
  10. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    Okay, you need to change the judiciary, it should be changed every 1 term(not 2), there should only 3 ppl in the judiciary(we are already having problems filling all the positions), the judiciary shouldn't oversee elections(thats for the election office), and they should vote on ties(that gives ppl in the judiciary 2 votes)...

    Otherwise the changes are okay...
     
  11. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    Well....who's in the election office, then? I figure the judicial is about as impartial as you can get, so why not let them do it? Though I'm fine with changing the number and term limit.

    We should probably also put an article in there about provinces and mayors, while we're at it. I agree that keeping it as short as possible is good, but it needs to outline more things than that.
     
  12. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    Location:
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    Actually, I have no problem with the 2nd place being the deputy. I just want the leaders to have the option to send a PM to the president asking permission to "Sack" a deputy for not doing their job. The deputy position then would be filled by someone jointly appreved by the President and the Minister.
     
  13. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    I'm thinking the reason we had so few people run for an office is because of several things:

    1 - Only being able to run for 1 office.
    2 - Runner ups aren't automatically deputies.

    So, why bother with an election if you're just going to be appointed? I'm all for deputies. (Even the runner up of the presidential race was the deputy). The main thing that worries me is the demogame getting, essentially, less and less positions. Right now, it's the president, and 4 (5 later) advisors, plus governors that have all the power to play the game. As it stands now, deputies can't "fill in" for an advisor if the advisor isn't at the turnchat unless the advisor posts an instruction. The problem there is if the advisor has to leave at the last minute and can't post.

    This brings up another point.

    Kill the "no instructions during the chat" clause. There's areas where many things can happen. Suppose trade said, "Trade Bronze Working to civ X on turn 2", but civ X gets it from a goody hut, or another civ gets Bronze Working, and the trade with Civ X depreciates. Take military for example. There were a *LOT* of things that you could say I left out last term. The problem is, I just didn't know:

    a - Where the AI would come from after the first few turns.
    b - How the culture borders would be affected (i.e., when we took England, all cities were level 4 culture - I had no way of knowing that). Such a detail could have delayed our invasion of the Zulus. It didn't, but the point is, things like those may have to allow for adjustments in the instructions.
    c - I didn't know what troops would win what battles, and how many we'd have left over. Essentially, it's impossible to know how many defenders each city has.
    d - One of the carriers I wanted wasn't built, but was built in another location. There was no way I even knew about this (even though I asked the governors) because it was posted both at the last minute, and while I was at work. So, it was impossible for me to adjust my directions accordingly.

    Had I written down every single possibility, then I would have probably needed 2-3 posts of instructions, not to mention that it would take up all of my time.

    Also remember that people aren't going to have time to micromanage every aspect of the game in their instructions. When I surveyed people on why they left, this was the response:

    50% - Not enough time.
    25% - Ruleset/pre-occupied with the ruleset/slow pace/too many rules
    25% - Other/Still lurking


    We should really strive for a DG1-DG2 hybrid ruleset.
     
  14. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I would find myself in the 25% range of Ruleset/pre-occupoed w/ ruleset. I beleve that we should bring back the Demogame 1-2 ruleset and I am all for having the deputies to be as a runner-up possition. I am also 100% for removing the Kill the "no instructions during the chat" clause.
     
  15. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    I am for having runnerups as deputies, but defiently, we need to allow ppl to run for multiple positions(or maybe make a limit of 3 elections one person can be in)
    I wasn't here in dg1 or dg2 so, I wouldn't know the ruleset that good...
     
  16. Curufinwe

    Curufinwe Socialist Elf

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    Add to the Culture Minister to serve an advisory role in all things cultural, and I like it.
     
  17. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Well, here is a little DG history. Back from Demogame I to II, there is a rule that said that you can only run a maximum of 2 offices if you dont already hold an office. In Demogame III, IIRC, you can run in a unlimited offices regardless if you were a leader or not (Usualy people limited themselves to 2-3 offices).
     
  18. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    A 2 or 3 term limit to one position should be the norm. I think DG2 had something like that. It prevents one person from holding an office for too long. (prevents the demogame from turning into a popularity contest).
     
  19. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    I'll toss my proposal out there as well. Very similar to the others ...

    Code:
    Constitution
    We, the people of Fanatica, in order to create an atmosphere of 
    friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved 
    country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have an equal 
    voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government 
    itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, 
    regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active 
    participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires 
    of the citizens.
    
    Article A. Citizens 
    All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen 
    Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the 
    right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to 
    free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to 
    representation, the right to seek to redress grievances and 
    the right to vote.
    
    Article B.  Rules
    Governing rules consists of these Articles of the 
    Constitution, such amendments that may follow and lower 
    forms of law that may be implemented. No law that 
    contradicts these Articles is valid except an amendment 
    specifically tasked to do so.
    
    Article C.  Will of the People
    All Elected officials must plan and act according to the 
    will of the people as expressed through discussions and 
    polls.
    
    Article D.  Terms and Appointments
    All elected positions have a fixed term of one month, 
    beginning on the first day of the month (GMT), and must be 
    filled by a citizen of Fanatica.  All elected officials, 
    except the Judiciary, shall appoint as deputy a citizen.  
    All elected positions that become vacant must be filled by 
    appointing the deputy to that office, or should no deputy 
    exist for that position, any citizen, by the President to 
    fulfill the remainder of the term.
    
    Vacancies in the Judiciary will be filled by the President 
    and the remaining members of the Judiciary acting in 
    concert to appoint citizens to the Judiciary.
    
    Article E.  Elections
    Elections for all Executive Branch, Judicial Branch and 
    Provincial Governorships shall be held monthly.  Elections 
    shall be conducted by the Election Office and supervised by 
    the Judiciary.  Nominations and debates will open 7 days 
    before the new term.  Election polls being posted 4 days 
    before the new term and will remain open for 3 days.  
    Citizens will be allowed to run for more than two offices in
    any given term.
    
    There will be one poll for each office.  The Judiciary 
    election will be a single poll for all choices, configured 
    as a multiple choice poll, with the candidate receiving 
    the most votes becoming the Chief Justice.
    
    All ties are to be handled by run-off elections initiated 
    immediately following the close of the initial polls and 
    will last for two days.  This process may be repeated as 
    needed.
    
    Article F.  Multiple Offices
    No citizen shall hold multiple positions of leadership 
    (President, Minister, Justice, Provincial Governor, or 
    deputy for those positions) simultaneously, whether elected 
    or appointed to the position.  
    
    Article G.  Government Structure
    The government will consist of the Executive Branch, 
    Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.
    
    Article H.  Executive Branch
    The Executive branch is responsible for determining and 
    implementing the will of the People. It is headed by the 
    President who shall take direction from a Council of 5 
    Leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via 
    the game session instruction thread.
    
    The President shall be responsible for establishing the 
    game play schedule, uses of Great Leaders, conducting 
    discussions on worker actions, and any matter not covered 
    by another elected official.
    
    The Minister of Internal Affairs is responsible determining 
    city placement, settler movement, provincial borders, 
    construction of Great and Small Wonders, serving as 
    Governor for any city not controlled by a Governor, 
    monitoring overall cultural and happiness levels and 
    coordinate the efforts of Governors on National Projects.
    
    The Minister of Finance is responsible for the slider 
    settings and approving all uses of cash.
    
    The Minister of Foreign Affairs is responsible for matters 
    involving non-trade treaties with foreign nations and all 
    non-technology espionage activities.
    
    The Minister of Defense is responsible for all military 
    strategy and troop activities.
    
    The Minister of Trade and Technology is responsible for all 
    technology acquisitions (including through steals) and 
    trade initiatives.
    
    The President and each Minister shall determine any 
    policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties.
    
    Article I.  Legislative Branch
    The Legislative Branch will be formed of two houses.  
    
    The Senate will be formed of the Provincial Governors, each 
    of whom are responsible for the care, management and use of 
    the cities and lands of a province through the setting of 
    build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, the use of 
    population rushes and drafting of soldiers.
    
    Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures 
    needed to carry out their duties.
    
    The Congress will be formed of the entirety of the 
    citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws.
    
    Article J.  Judicial Branch
    The Judicial Branch consists of one Chief Justice and two 
    Associate Justices. These three justices are tasked with 
    upholding the Constitution and its supporting laws (if any) 
    in a fair and impartial manner. 
    
    The Judiciary will conduct fair, impartial and speedy trials of any 
    citizen of accused of violating any law of Fanatica in an 
    expedient manner.  
    
    The Judiciary will conduct hearings to review any current 
    or proposed law for conflicts with existing law in an 
    expedient manner.  Should an existing law be deeming in 
    conflict with another law, the Judiciary shall have the 
    power to resolve that conflict by striking down that law, 
    or portion of that law that is causing the conflict.  
    Should the conflict be with the proposed law, and the 
    conflict is not resolved within the proposal, the Judiciary 
    will return the proposal to the Congress for more 
    discussion.  Should the proposed law pass review, the 
    Judiciary shall post the official poll to adopt or reject 
    the proposal.
    
    The Chief Justice shall determine any policies and 
    procedures needed to carry out the duties assigned to the 
    Judiciary.
    
    Article K.  Designated Player
    The Designated Player is the President of Fanatica.  
    
    The Designated Player is responsible for all worker 
    actions, and for the plans and directions for those areas 
    where no leader issued instructions.
    
    Should the Designated Player be unable to attend the 
    scheduled session, be later than 15 minutes from the 
    scheduled start of the session, unable to continue playing 
    the save during the session, or unable to communicate for 
    more than 10 minute with those attending the session, 
    another citizen may assume the role of Designated Player.  
    This citizen will be chosen using the Chain of Command as 
    follows:  Vice-President (Deputy of the President), 
    Minister of Internal Affairs, Minister of Finance, Minister 
    of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Defense, Minister of Trade 
    and Technology.
    
    The Designated Player may end a turn chat at any time at 
    their discretion.
    
    Article L.  Turn Chats
    All irreversible game actions must progress during a public 
    game play session, and be carried out by the Designated 
    Player.  Reversible game actions (i.e. build queues, troop 
    movement along railways, etc.) that adhere to legal 
    instruction can be prepared offline by any citizen 
    authorized by the President.
    
    All turn chats will be no longer than 10 turns.  A turn 
    chat may be extended up to 3 turns to complete a period of 
    anarchy, complete a technology, complete a wonder, or 
    conclude a war, provided no other significant decisions 
    must be made during that extension.  
    
    A save will be made available to all citizens after the 
    pre-turn actions, at the conclusion of the fifth turn and 
    each subsequent fifth turn, and at the end of the game play 
    session.
    
    Article M. Playing the Save
    Commission of any game action by any person, other than the 
    Designated Player while carrying out their duties, which is 
    not instantly reversible without reloading the save, is 
    strictly forbidden.
    
    Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of 
    Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to 
    exit the bargain screen. This may be done but the game must 
    be immediately closed without saving.
    
    Article N.  CFC and Mods
    The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatica can never 
    be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics 
    forums. Moderators may veto any such Constitutional 
    amendments, laws or standards.
    
    Article O.  Census and Amendments
    The census is defined as the average number of votes cast, 
    dropping fractions, in each of the contested elections in 
    the most recent general election.
    
    Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution requires 
    each of the following:
    a. Successful completion of Judicial Review by the 
    Judiciary.
    b. A poll which is open for at least 48 hours, which 
    states the text of the proposed new section(s), the text 
    of the section(s) being replaced, and posing the 
    question in the form of yes / no / abstain.
    c. A majority of yes votes.
    d. A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 2/3 
    the census current at the start of voting on the 
    amendment, dropping any fraction therein.
    
    Ratification of Laws that do not amend the Constitution 
    requires each of the following:
    a. Successful completion of Judicial Review by the 
    Judiciary.
    b. A poll which is open for at least 48 hours, which 
    states the text of the proposed new section(s), the text 
    of the section(s) being replaced, and posing the 
    question in the form of yes / no / abstain.
    c. A majority of yes votes.
    
    
    V1.1 
    -- E:  changed restriction for number of offices to two, also moved it
    -- H:  added organize discussions on worker actions to President
    -- J:  "fair and impartial" to "fair, impartial and speedy"
    
    I'm biased, but I really like this. Why - it provides the core structure we need, and that's about it. Certain things are intentially left OUT of the Constitution with the expectation that we will pass laws to fill in those details.

    A Constitution should provide a strong basis and be challenging to change. The supporting laws provide the details, and are much easier to change.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  20. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    So you're going to assume that the person that finished second DOES want to be the deputy?

    I've also got issues with allowing leaders to be deputies - that's too much power in one person. If a person is elected to an office, that office should be getting all of their focus.

    -- Ravensfire
     

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