DG6: Alternative Government Structure

[MOTH]

I like this idea a lot. A few thoughts:

I was thinking that the DP's would ideally be spread across timezones. 1 Old World, 1 Oceania, 1 New World. This would allow chats where citizens in 2 out of 3 timezones could participate. We would also need to consider how to elect multiple DPs. Specifics: We would need to have 3 polls listing all candidates but counting as one election. Take the total number of votes from all three polls and these are the results of the election with the top 3 vote getters being elected. Note that this specifically allows a candidate (or anyone) to cast 3 votes for themselves.

We should also allow candidates who cannot open the save to run for (some) tactical positions with a stated deputy who would be responsible for updating game info. I state this for purely selfish reasons: I like being a governor but am unlikely to buy C3C.

 

[Gres]

Well...
Personally, I am rather skeptical. Mostly because I am eager to begin my first DG so I am being rather selfish when I say that I don't like the proposal...
However, still, it all seems to be a utopian proposal.
-This is supposed to work like this and this works like this... Im not so sure.
(I am too tired to quote and state my entire case. sorry)
Basically, It is obviously a huge change. I don't need a change because it is my first DG, hence my apprehension towards the propasal.
I will trust all of you, however, and not be Anti-this propasal. I will be passive.

P.S. Would this still be a democracy Game?

 

[Black_Hole]

Well...
Personally, I am rather skeptical. Mostly because I am eager to begin my first DG so I am being rather selfish when I say that I don't like the proposal...
However, still, it all seems to be a utopian proposal.
-This is supposed to work like this and this works like this... Im not so sure.
(I am too tired to quote and state my entire case. sorry)
Basically, It is obviously a huge change. I don't need a change because it is my first DG, hence my apprehension towards the propasal.
I will trust all of you, however, and not be Anti-this propasal. I will be passive.

P.S. Would this still be a democracy Game?

yes its still a dg, let me give you a bit of insight,
this demogame we had all things in one area in 1 department for example:
the science minister was in charge of long term queues(which direction we head on the tech tree) and the nitty gritty stuff(exactly what tech to get next) while in this proposal these two would be split up. Into strategic(long term) and tactical(short term).

 

[Black_Hole]

I like this idea a lot. A few thoughts:

I was thinking that the DP's would ideally be spread across timezones. 1 Old World, 1 Oceania, 1 New World. This would allow chats where citizens in 2 out of 3 timezones could participate. We would also need to consider how to elect multiple DPs. Specifics: We would need to have 3 polls listing all candidates but counting as one election. Take the total number of votes from all three polls and these are the results of the election with the top 3 vote getters being elected. Note that this specifically allows a candidate (or anyone) to cast 3 votes for themselves.

We should also allow candidates who cannot open the save to run for (some) tactical positions with a stated deputy who would be responsible for updating game info. I state this for purely selfish reasons: I like being a governor but am unlikely to buy C3C.

Im not sure i understand the idea of your polling. Basically if we wanted to do this we would make 1 multiple choice poll, but of course ppl course in your proposal u could only vote for 3 ppl. But i dont understand, why we have all candidates in 3 different polls... A simple poll with the top 3 getting DP job(not sure if we want multiple choice or non multiple choice)

 

[Civanator]

Actually Gres, you're with most of us on this as this is a new idea, and us veterans have been playing the old system for the past 3 years.

Anyway about the Consuls:

President
-Oversees Director of Infrastructure
Consul for Domestic Policy
-Oversees Director of Commerce
Consul for Military Policy
-Oversees Commander of the Armed Forces
Consul for Cultural Policy
-Oversees Director of Expansion and Culture
Consul for Foreign Affair Policy
-Oversees Driector of Foreign Affairs

Culture would be responsible for technologies also, and monitoring our culture levels. Also, oversee the Director of Expansion and Culture. So this would mean under Tactical Directors you have"

Commander of the Armed Forces
Responsible for all military units
Director of Infrastructure
Responsible for all workers (techs?)
Director of Commerce
Responsible for the authorization of rushes, sliders and acquiring resources.
Director of Expansion and Culture
Responsible for settelment and culture (and techs?)
Director of Foreigh Affairs
Responsible for foreign relations and trades.

These are my thoughts, and I have to leave it at that as I need my sleep.

 

[ali]

I would find it more realistic if the leader of the government (piresident/prime minister) may give execective orders to his or hers ministers or consuls in regards to their various portfolios and have more power ie the power to declare war within cerrtain limits and rules it seems to me that the leader of the governemt has no real power at all compared to the rest of the government

 

[MOTH]

Im not sure i understand the idea of your polling. Basically if we wanted to do this we would make 1 multiple choice poll, but of course ppl course in your proposal u could only vote for 3 ppl. But i dont understand, why we have all candidates in 3 different polls... A simple poll with the top 3 getting DP job(not sure if we want multiple choice or non multiple choice)

My main point (before I rambled) was that we need to specify how the voting for DPs will work up front.

The multiple choice poll doesn't work as well when its private. Primarily this is because you can't easily assure that each person voted for only 3 choices.

We could go with a simple poll with the top 3. This would allow different factions (dare I say voting blocs?) to be able to push their choice forward.

My idea is that if we are going to have 3 elected DPs then I should be able to cast votes for 3 people.

 

[mhcarver]

I have only somewhat skimmed through this thread so bear with me if something is off with these comments:
-will the judiciary still be elected or will all the seats be filled by the president? I assumed they would be elected but some posts I read seem to say that the president appoint administrative officers
-about BH's suggestion that the Judiciary be able hold one other office: that is fine but I think we need a clause about how they must recuse themselves if a JR(or equivalent) is brought involving their department since it would be a conflict of interest.

 

[Black_Hole]

so who is the one that actually posts TC instructions for the foreign and trade stuff? I think a Director of Foreign Affairs and Trade should be created, because im not sure who else would do this

 

[DaveShack]

On appointing the Judiciary, we could have life appointments like the US.

Well, maybe not. I was thinking they would be elected. The other administrative offices might be either elected or appointed with advice & consent.

On the DP election, the multiple choice poll idea doesn't actually hurt. Someone who votes for only one candidate effectively increases the weight of their vote for that candidate by pushing him/her ahead of the others who are not voted for. Someone who votes for too many candidates dilutes the vote for each candidate by not putting a gap between them. Alternatively we could handle it by having 3 DP polls with different slates of candidates. As previously suggested indirectly, how about polling by time slots the candidate can play (DP 0000-0800 GMT, DP 0800-1600GMT, DP 1600-2400GMT). We wouldn't necessarilly force them to play those hours, but it would give us a mixture of preferred hours.

I agree that even considering this alternative government style is a big step. If the active players are fairly calm about it, then we should be able to work through the inevitable snags without causing damage. If someone gets into a contest of "my job is bigger than yours" before we build up experience on how to run the game this way then we have a problem, but that can still happen with the current ruleset.

 

[Chieftess]

so who is the one that actually posts TC instructions for the foreign and trade stuff? I think a Director of Foreign Affairs and Trade should be created, because im not sure who else would do this

With that tangent, we could essentially combine everyone into 2 major advisors. "Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Research", and "Department of Military, Domestic Affairs, and Culture".

first having to do with trades, embargos, etc., and the latter having to do with cities, culture improvements, and troops (since you build those too -- Workers and settlers are also on the military advisor screen). It would become the Departments of "Internal Affairs" and "External Affairs".

But, this slippery slow would lead to too few people in the demogame. Maybe if we were really small (just a group of 5 people), it would work. But we'd leave too many people out. Besides, it would be more work for 2 people.

 

[Black_Hole]

With that tangent, we could essentially combine everyone into 2 major advisors. "Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Research", and "Department of Military, Domestic Affairs, and Culture".

first having to do with trades, embargos, etc., and the latter having to do with cities, culture improvements, and troops (since you build those too -- Workers and settlers are also on the military advisor screen). It would become the Departments of "Internal Affairs" and "External Affairs".

But, this slippery slow would lead to too few people in the demogame. Maybe if we were really small (just a group of 5 people), it would work. But we'd leave too many people out. Besides, it would be more work for 2 people.

i was meaing in conjunction with this proposal, as there is no one in this proposal directly incharge of deciding on trades and foreign affairs stuff, if you read above you can see how the other offices are split up...

 

[Ashburnham]

I'm just going to chime in that, like a lot of people here, I am extremely intrigued by this proposal. The one problem I see in this proposal is that being a Tactical official seems to be a pretty thankless job. I'd imagine everyone reading this thread is thinking "wow, I bet it would be cool to be a Consul", and very few people are actually thinking about the day-to-day operations that the Directors will need to do in order for the DG to function. If people are fine with having that responsibility, then this proposal sounds great, but I could see a problem with people being willing to devote all their time to a position that operates at the whim of another office.

 

[YNCS]

I agree with Ashburnham. The Consul for Domestic Policy decrees "put the science slider at 50% for the next four turns until we get the present tech 1 turn away, then put it to 10% and increase taxes to 80% with lux at 10% the entire time). The Commercial Director's sole function is to put the slider at 50% and then count four turns. That sort of thing could get old really fast.

 

[Black_Hole]

I agree with Ashburnham. The Consul for Domestic Policy decrees "put the science slider at 50% for the next four turns until we get the present tech 1 turn away, then put it to 10% and increase taxes to 80% with lux at 10% the entire time). The Commercial Director's sole function is to put the slider at 50% and then count four turns. That sort of thing could get old really fast.

actually the consuls job would be:
"Low science in ancient age, and high science in middle ages" Then the director chooses exactly how to do that

 

[Civanator]

adding to Black_Hole, the Consul could set a tech goal to reach for the age. The Tactical Directors do the more detailed tasks.

I would like to see a working system like this, and I bet that most people would vote for it. It's a nice change from the old DG.

 

[DaveShack]

So at this point I think we have a decision to make. We can put some work in on filling in the blanks, draw up a ruleset, and play using this new government style; or we can tweak the existing rules and start the next game.

Any further discussion prior to polling it?

 

[Provolution]

Daveshack thank you sir.

I would like to reiterate these main points.

I think it is high time to split up the truly work and power intensive Domestic Department and the Military, and merge the relatively weak Foreign Affairs and Trade as well as science and culture. We would land on the same amount of positions, and still be able to give true meaning to both the strategic and the tactical layer.
In fact, the government structure should reflect the flow of the various terms, where term one works out very differently than term five, regarding work-load and so on, and potential for creative strategy development by each consul and director.

As it stands, Domestic has been a neglected Super Department, truly saved mid.game by Sir Donald III that shaped it in a good fashion. However, Domestic is indeed to top heavy, and is the source of several problems, where the military has ample potential for citizen participation that has been swept under the carpet.
So this reform should seek to split up the powers of Domestic and Military, in order to bring forth the interest of those that likes to influence these areas.

On the other hand, I would like to see Foreign Affairs and Trade merge into one, so that the Diplomatic proposals can be properly coordinated, which is a must where several nations are involved. Remember the confusion around every trade deal bundled with a national security interest proposals. Trade fought for profits and Foreign Affairs fought for strategic relations, and this breach caused several unnecessary problems and extra work, which should have been put to better use elsewhere.

Regarding Science and culture, these are so heavily interrelated, and not singularly work intensive enough to justify separate departments. Both temples and libraries produce culture, and these departments frequently add up as an informal political bloc fighting the hawks in the military, where Domestic shifts between the two.
Science debates also influence wonder builds heavily, de facto dictating cultures wonder options in several instances. The only way to create tidy debates on the topic is to allow a Science/Culture Minister to present a comprehensive proposal for the sake of clarity, since no one cares to summarize the big picture of the two departments, and if they do, they are called on for meddling in someones jurisdiction by political opponents, and de facto nullifying the leadership of each minister.

In this tentative proposal, which of course can be amended and adapted, I have sought to blance out and integrate departments where they naturally do make a difference, and still maintain the existing number of seven ministers including DP.
The appointed Deputies could here serve as the Directors, subject to an approval vote.

President (Oversee the cooperation and interaction of all Ministries on the strategic level for the term, and use leadership to integrate presented strategies)

Vice President (Oversee the cooperation and interaction of all Director Offices throughout the term in line with the wishes of the long term perspective)

Minister of State Projects (Mobilization and War Economy decisions, Wonder builds (yes wonders are something beyond culture, they are of strategic significance, placement of Capital and Forbidden Capital discussions, responsible for Space Race, sets up provincial borders and city borders, responsible for nation naming as well).

Director of State (localization debates on capitals and wonders, calling for military drafts after nationalism, city naming procedures, military unit naming procedures, cooperating with governors on space race, watching corruption and waste levels and calling for courthouses related to Capital locations, arbitrates in governor and mayor quarrels on cities and borders before any legal process is initiated)

Ministry of Mining, Roads and Agriculture (responsible for strategic planning on the development of tiles in the nations, based on existing cities)

Director of Infrastructure Office (responsible for all worker movements within term)

Finance Minister (All fiscal policies related to sliders and rushes, setting up rules for all gold related activities for one term to be discussed and polled)
Central Bank Director (making financial decisions throughout term within rules)

Military Minister (All military land units, except escorts, plus navy in wartime, long term strategic planning, force composition, upgrade plans, military groupings, War Objectives)

Chief of Staff (All Operation level plans and tactical decisions within term)

Foreign Affairs and Trade Minister (Long term foreign Affairs plan

Director of Colonial Office (Settlers, City planning, considering future borders, navy-peacetime), also becomes Director of Intelligence (espionage and embassies)

Culture and Science Minister (promoting and calling for all cultural and science builds except wonders in a long term perspective, proposing one term science queues in line with what Strider did, planning cultural war rule parameters and plans and nominating cultural wonders for the State Project Ministry)

Director of National Office (fighting cultural wars by working with governors and promoting science in the process in terms of builds, as well as making necessary amendments in the science queue throughout the term, additionally, approving and disapproving in all science deals with foreign powers proposed by FA/Trade)

Governor
(Build queues in cities, 1 provincial named worker groups of 6 workers (half of province workers), control over city specialists and tile management). responsible for preparing city limits and negotiating external provincial borders. Names Province.

Knowing how much work certain activities took in the game, this more reflects the reality of things, and balances out the powers of the wonders, and merging weak ministries and splitting strong ministries. We also know from human psychology, that when pet cities become the issue, these influence the game in a strong sense.

Forbidden Palace, Capital, Wonder debates, frustrations of getting poor city locations, wrongful and unfair naming process, irritation of being nominated a worker and settler factory where other cities get the glamor of the wonders and so on.

I find the in-game advisor set up from the previous game to be incredibly arbitrary, and
do not reflect the true nature of the political processes throughout the game, and ensure a more balanced workload for each ministry in each term.
I believe this proposal is far from finished, but a step in the right direction.
I hope some of you agree.

 

[GenMarshall]

I would rather keep the Traditional government style we had in the past government. I know the topic of separating the FAs and Trade will come one some time in DG6 much like what happened in Demogame 4 or 5 IIRC.

I like the Idea however, but I am skeptical on how it would fly, mainly because of past experiances in the DG.

 

[Ashburnham]

I agree with Provolution that the Domestic and Military Ministries should be further divided. In the last game, the Domestic Minister was arguably the most powerful position in the game, far outweighing the President. I like the idea of seperating it into offices of Infrastructure, Finance, and Colonization. I also like merging Foreign and Trade into one ministry of Foreign Affairs. The Minister of State Projects, on the other hand, seems more like a conglomerate of duties that fall under the jurisdiction of other Ministries; I would remove that and return the duties to the offices they deserve (Wonder-building to Culture, Corruption to Finance, etc.). But, other than that, it looks like a good proposal.