Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?

Did Jesus (the man) actually exist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 128 77.6%
  • No

    Votes: 12 7.3%
  • Not sure.

    Votes: 25 15.2%

  • Total voters
    165
warpus said:
Damn, the 'Jesus existed' supporters are out in force!

I'm unconvinced either way btw. I just thought that a white Jesus casts doubt on other things said about him. If they got the race wrong, what else did they get wrong?

No need to get defensive.

No early writings about jesus got the race wrong. Can you see eurocentric believers following a semitic looking god?
It isn't the only thing that the catholic church and later the protestants perverted about christianity, and it certainly wasn't the most important. What aren't you seeing here? It's not an argument about jesus's existance, it's an argument against simple ignorance.
 
Jesus was Jewish and therefore probably did not have pale white skin.

There are a lot of people who have crazy beliefs about Jesus. Just because one person believes something crazy does not mean that the other facts about Jesus are somehow rendered illegitimate. Even if a lot of people during a time period believed crazy things about Jesus, it does not mean his historicity is undermined. It just means they were wrong.

I can guarantee you that our modern understanding of Jesus is very different from the actual near-eastern mindset that Jesus had of himself. But I try my best!
 
warpus said:
Damn, the 'Jesus existed' supporters are out in force!

I'm unconvinced either way btw. I just thought that a white Jesus casts doubt on other things said about him. If they got the race wrong, what else did they get wrong?

No need to get defensive.

The president of Iran remains unconvinced the holocaust happened as well. /shrug. Its a free world and you are entitled to your opinion. But pardon us for pointing out the flaws in your thinking.

Couple of things.

You have no idea what jesus looked like either...all you have is your own assumptions. And since your assumptions are different than other peoples assumptions about what Jesus looked like then you again wrongly assume that "more" could have been wrong as well.

Secondly, you are referring to the central figure of peoples religion here - why shouldnt they get defensive? I think it wouldnt be normal if people DIDNT get defensive over such an allegation that Jesus didnt exist.

The vast majority of historians will agree that the man existed. There is more than enough evidence showing this. The main reason for such a thread as this is another simple attempt to put a stick into the christian hornets nest and see what can be stirred up. Which, once again, it has managed to do.

ApostleCairdeas said:
Jesus was Jewish and therefore probably did not have pale white skin.

I know plenty of pale skinned jews. /boggle. I think you mean to refer to him as Hebrew....not Jewish.
 
Erik Mesoy said:
Remember:
Jesus destroyed large amounts of Temple property,
scourged the inhabitants with a whip,
called the Pharisees hellspawn,
named the secular commandments when asked how to enter Heaven,
and gave the disciples the Lord's Prayer to stop them invoking God's name in public in order to gain religious support.

Not sure where this quote is from, but this part is inaccurate because people of the time period did not differentiate between secular/sacred in the same ways we do. Jesus' commandments were rooted in the OT commandments, which of course was both a part of the Jewish faith and the foundation for Jewish society at the time

And regarding this, Jesus did model the Lord's Prayer, but not for the reason that is stated here.
 
The concept of portraying Jesus as having light skin tones (from which eventually would come the idea that he was Caucasian) is much later than any documents that would be relevant. Basically. as the church preached to the Europeans, they portayed Jesus as a European. But this argument is irrelevant. No Gospel or historical source that is relevant to the question mentions his skin color at all.
 
Jesus destroyed large amounts of Temple property
maybe he knocked and his troupe of followers knocked over some stalls. disruption more so than destruction. although it would no doubt pish off the local government.
 
MobBoss said:
You have no idea what jesus looked like either...all you have is your own assumptions. And since your assumptions are different than other peoples assumptions about what Jesus looked like then you again wrongly assume that "more" could have been wrong as well.

I concede that Jesus could've been a pale white dude... although imo that is very unlikely. I am simply assuming that it's more probable that he was a bit darker - much like other people from the region @ the time.

Unless he was albino.
 
Zacchaeus was such a man. He wanted to see Jesus, but he was not very tall.He had an idea. He would run ahead of the crowd and climb up in the sycamore fig tree that was beside the path where Jesus would walk.
thats a modified part of a parable. doubt has been expressed whether it was Zacchaeus that was short and couldnt see for the crowd, or if jesus was short and couldnt be seen for the crowd.
 
Dionysius said:
thats a modified part of a parable. doubt has been expressed whether it was Zacchaeus that was short and couldnt see for the crowd, or if jesus was short and couldnt be seen for the crowd.

Jesus can never be seen for the crowd, in modern times at least, there are too many people trying to tell others what the message is, but few who actually follow the message, you could stand on the ground and see Jesus' message easily, many stand in the clouds and see nothing but what they want to see, a fog of delusion. If your going to follow a message keep your feet on the ground and keep your views simple, the more you try to justify the corruption that has occured throughout history and that occurs now, the more you rise into the stratosphere away from Earth and away from the religion.
 
erm... was referring to jesus`s uncertain physical appearance.
quite a deep post, there, though.
 
Dionysius said:
erm... was referring to jesus`s uncertain physical appearance.
quite a deep post, there, though.

Oh I know, was just trying to be spiritual for a change, like mixing up my perspectives.:)
 
To the Jesus existed crowd - please show me one solid piece of evidence written during his supposed lifetime. You can't, because none exist.

Quasar1011 said:
Finally, somebody mentions Josephus. :goodjob: Stile.



From Josephus, in Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."
It is well known and established that Josephus's writings are disputed due to the differences between his normal work and that in which he mentions Jesus - in other words it looks like it could have been faked.
 
what aboot that Tacitus thing?

and look at this;
Crīstnas gelīefaþ hē wǣre gewyrdelic man and hē libode of ymbe 6–4 BC tō ymbe AD 29–33), and manig (ac not eall) woruldlic scōleras cnāwaþ þā sceaf Iesuse. Crīstnas ēac gelīefaþ, on the evidence of the four Gospels, þe form þā forman bēc þæs Nīwe Testament of the Bible, þæt Iesus wæs se Messiah ("anointed one") and se Sunu Godes.
a bloody anglo saxon wikipedia article! good god!
[offtopic]
 
it was off topic. i was commenting on how bloody odd finding an article in a dead language was. :p
 
ApostleCairdeas said:
First, I would say that is is clear that folks from both sides of the debate have already arrived at their conclusion to the question. Let's not pretend to look for the "truth" and then attempt to debunk every post that presents evidence for the opposing viewpoint.

With that, the evidence:

Tacitus was a Roman historian writing early in the 2nd century A.D. His Annals provide us with a single reference to Jesus of considerable value. Rather frustratingly, much of his work has been lost, including a work which covers the years 29-32, where the trial of Jesus would have been had he recorded it. [Meie.MarJ, 89]

Here is a full quote of the cite of our concern, from Annals 15.44. Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome's fire of 64 AD:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. From http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

Josephus:
Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

Also, let's think about the context in which Jesus lived.
1. He lived in a culture where most people were illiterate (but still smart!). Therefore there would not be an abundance of documents about him.
2. He was not one to dialogue with major historians or political figures of the time. In fact, his later followers received more attention than he did.

Finally, there are also several conversation between early Christians and non-Christians discussing whether Jesus was the Messiah. The question was if he was really the Son of God, not whether the man named Jesus actually existed. That was assumed by both.

I don't know why non-believers would have to be so devout in their beliefs of his existence or not. It makes no difference to me, because either way, he'd still be just a man.

Having said that, I'm looking for historical sources (non-religious) that date to his time. You're quoting two sources, one of which is 100 or so years past, and one historian who was born after Jesus would have died.

I'm looking for something a bit more significant.

The theories as to why things probably wouldn't have existed don't serve as proof...just excuses. I can come up with all sorts of theories for why he didn't exist as well. It's not proof of anything though.
 
Masquerouge said:
That same Josephus who says that Jesus had a brother? :lol:
quick google search said:
Question: "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?"



Answer: The Bible never gives an exact count, but Jesus’ siblings are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). Jesus also had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:55-56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother pray for Him. Later in Galatians 1:19, it mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood siblings. There is no Biblical reason to believe that these siblings are not the actual children of Mary and Joseph. They were obviously born after Jesus, because Jesus was born of a virgin (Isa 7:14; Luke 1:26-38).

Recommended Resource: Vital Christology Issues by Roy Zuck.
there you go. i read this in several books before, this wasnt just a random search.
 
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