Differing reactions to men & women getting abused

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Extremely defensive posting.

Pointless reply. It HAS been stated several times that, as a "white man", my/our opinions on anything to do with feminism are completely irrelevant. Admittedly, there is a small technical distinction between being told you CAN'T voice an opinion, and that you can voice one but that it is entirely irrelevant. But it's such a small distinction that it doesn't really matter - kind of like being told "yes of course you can vote in this election, anyone and everyone is free to vote, it's just that votes from certain groups aren't going to be counted towards the final totals". So to claim that this hasn't been said is disingenuous, and to then criticise someone of pointing out that yes, it has actually been said, of "extremely defensive posting", just smacks of some massive bias and refusal to actually engage with anything.
 
No more of this kind of thing, then, however you want to pussyfoot around what is pretty flatly being said here:



And now:



There you go again. What is this "real" understanding? And how does it differ from understanding?

Pointless reply. It HAS been stated several times that, as a "white man", my/our opinions on anything to do with feminism are completely irrelevant. Admittedly, there is a small technical distinction between being told you CAN'T voice an opinion, and that you can voice one but that it is entirely irrelevant. But it's such a small distinction that it doesn't really matter - kind of like being told "yes of course you can vote in this election, anyone and everyone is free to vote, it's just that votes from certain groups aren't going to be counted towards the final totals". So to claim that this hasn't been said is disingenuous, and to then criticise someone of pointing out that yes, it has actually been said, of "extremely defensive posting", just smacks of some massive bias and refusal to actually engage with anything.

Do you guys not understand words? Are we speaking the same English language? Are you even trying to comprehend, or are you just looking for excuses to dismiss the inconvenient ideas at hand?
 
Why is pointing out what has been said, and the logical inconsistencies in what has been said, "offensive"?

And if you think the reasoning is flawed in some way, then point out where it is and why, don't just criticise people for not being able to speak english and then just leave it at that as if that will do.
 
Do you guys not understand words? Are we speaking the same English language? Are you even trying to comprehend, or are you just looking for excuses to dismiss the inconvenient ideas at hand?

Your ideas aren't inconvenient to me. Sometimes I think they're wrong. Being told I'm not allowed to say so is annoying to me, and illogical, given that it's a man telling me so.

As to your other post, if I play the devil's advocate, I usually mark it as such. I truly believe the California bus sign is a parody of sincere efforts to protect women (or an inept attempt to do so). I truly believe that misogyny is not the root cause of the Santa Barbara killing spree.
 
Why is pointing out what has been said, and the logical inconsistencies in what has been said, "offensive"?

Because you're playing devil's advocate against feminism.

Your ideas aren't inconvenient to me. Sometimes I think they're wrong. Being told I'm not allowed to say so is annoying to me, and illogical, given that it's a man telling me so.

That's what I mean. I explained what was meant by that in a more nuanced manner, but you've deliberately ignored it in favor of the less reasonable, easier to dismiss as ridiculous interpretation.

Why should I bother with people who immediately run to the most outlandish interpretation of something and decide that's what must be meant by that? Don't you see how in doing so, you're beginning from a position of "this person is crazy and nonsensical," instead of assuming that I'm just a normal, reasonable person like you, who happens to have different ideas about something than you are familiar with? It's difficult to accept new ideas when you start off already prejudiced toward them and the people advocating them.
 
Pointless reply. It HAS been stated several times that, as a "white man", my/our opinions on anything to do with feminism are completely irrelevant. Admittedly, there is a small technical distinction between being told you CAN'T voice an opinion, and that you can voice one but that it is entirely irrelevant. But it's such a small distinction that it doesn't really matter - kind of like being told "yes of course you can vote in this election, anyone and everyone is free to vote, it's just that votes from certain groups aren't going to be counted towards the final totals". So to claim that this hasn't been said is disingenuous, and to then criticise someone of pointing out that yes, it has actually been said, of "extremely defensive posting", just smacks of some massive bias and refusal to actually engage with anything.

You're not discussing so much as blathering. It's unreal how little of Cheezy's posts you're trying to understand.
 
Because you're playing devil's advocate against feminism.

I don't even know what that means, but I'll still say I'm not doing anything of the sort. Here's how things played out:

* You have said several times that, as men, our opinions about feminist issues don't matter, that we should shut up, etc. Gori just quoted one of those times.

* In another thread I specifically responded to that by saying that by saying that it's possible, as an intelligent empathic human, to reason about something and hold an opinion on something without necessarily having first hand experience of it, and that this is actually one of the defining characteristics of our intellect and society. I don't recall the direct response to this, if any, but I don't recall it being discussed so I imagine it was just dismissed.

* Then someone else points out that your opinion as a man must therefore be equally invalid, even if it does agree with the feminist point of view, because it's still your male brain making the decision to do that.

* Someone else points out that it's possible, as an intelligent empathic human... etc. Basically just exactly what I said before.

* So then Gori says in that case can we have no more "men can't comment on this" announcements please. At which point the reply is "that never happened anyway".

* I point out that it most definitely did happen, and that this is therefore a false statement. Further, that the reasoning employed as to why YOU can hold an opinion on it is the same reasoning I previously employed as to why I can hold an opinion about it, only for some reason it wasn't convincing when I said it but it now is this time.

* For pointing out these entirely logical inconsitencies, I get congratulated on my "extremely defensive posting", then get told by you that it's OFFensive, that it demonstrates how I don't speak english and am just trying to ignore an inconvenient truth, and now that I'm playing some sort of devil's advocate.

This is just blatant knee-jerk reactionary posting and a complete refusal to engage with anything being said or to explain your inconsistencies.


That's what I mean. I explained what was meant by that in a more nuanced manner, but you've deliberately ignored it in favor of the less reasonable, easier to dismiss as ridiculous interpretation.

Why should I bother with people who immediately run to the most outlandish interpretation of something and decide that's what must be meant by that? Don't you see how in doing so, you're beginning from a position of "this person is crazy and nonsensical," instead of assuming that I'm just a normal, reasonable person like you, who happens to have different ideas about something than you are familiar with? It's difficult to accept new ideas when you start off already prejudiced toward them and the people advocating them.

Is this not in essence exactly what you've been doing with Elliot Rodgers? Holding up his extreme and mentally disturbed, murderous behaviour, labelling it as inherently MRA, and then using that stick to bash anyone who thinks anything remotely anti-feminist just so that you can ignore THEIR inconvenient truths?
 
You're not discussing so much as blathering. It's unreal how little of Cheezy's posts you're trying to understand.

Again, an utter refusal to even address anything of any substance.
 
Cheezy use big word. Me try to thunk. But brain hurt :(
 
:lmao: I proved beyond doubt that Rodgers was an MRA and that his primary motive was misogyny.

:rotfl: At the idea that I'm the reactionary here.

:lol: At your dishonest portrayal of my posts. You aren't even trying, you're just here to discredit the idea that misogyny is real and to defend MRAs and Rodgers from being called for what they are.

Moderator Action: This post, and similar one-line trolling responses, are unacceptable. Infraction given for repeated trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Naw dawg, Rogers own words don't mean jack if it conflicts with my view that he wasn't motivated by mysogony and had nothing to do with MRA. You know, we MRAs aren't all mysogonists, just most of us and it hurts when you assume that we all hate women with equal fervour.

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
That's what I mean. I explained what was meant by that in a more nuanced manner, but you've deliberately ignored it in favor of the less reasonable, easier to dismiss as ridiculous interpretation.

Why should I bother with people who immediately run to the most outlandish interpretation of something and decide that's what must be meant by that? Don't you see how in doing so, you're beginning from a position of "this person is crazy and nonsensical," instead of assuming that I'm just a normal, reasonable person like you, who happens to have different ideas about something than you are familiar with? It's difficult to accept new ideas when you start off already prejudiced toward them and the people advocating them.

I don't think you're crazy and nonsensical. I assume you are are a normal, reasonable person. I am not prejudiced against you. I actually kind of like you and the passion with which you hold and express your ideas.

I don't like this:

You're a man. Your opinion as a man about this issue doesn't matter.

And I find what you call your more nuanced version of it just a restatement of the main idea, as I pointed out. What is the "real" understanding you deny me? And how does it relate to the "understanding" you allow me?

Could you just retract that one statement? Could you say, flatly, that a man's opinion on a topic concerning women doesn't not matter, just because he's a man?
 
The differing reactions thread: a play in one act

ACT I

CHEEZY: Women tend to have different experiences than men in societies that treat men and women differently. Thus it would behoove us men, to whom society is most generous, to make an honest effort to listen to and understand the problems that women face by seeking their perspectives on a broad range of social issues.

THE MRA PEANUT GALLERY: You tellin' me to shut-up??!?!

CHEEZY: Well, now I am.

THE MRA PEANUT GALLERY: THIS IS HOW NAZISM STARTED

La fin

Moderator Action: Trolling
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
And I find what you call your more nuanced version of it just a restatement of the main idea, as I pointed out. What is the "real" understanding you deny me? And how does it relate to the "understanding" you allow me?

Could you just retract that one statement? Could you say, flatly, that a man's opinion on a topic concerning women doesn't not matter, just because he's a man?

I believe what you're quoting was in my thread, right? I'm pretty sure I clarified later on that I meant that a man's opinion about how feminism should conduct itself is irrelevant, not that we men can't talk about the issue. If I didn't and that was in a PM (entirely possible, as I've been talking to people in private about it outside the chaos of the public forum also), then I'm stating that now.

I thought that my clarification on the previous page was sufficient, but I guess if you never saw me say the other thing, then it might not have made so much sense.
 
:lmao: I proved beyond doubt that Rodgers was an MRA and that his primary motive was misogyny.

:rotfl: At the idea that I'm the reactionary here.

:lol: At your dishonest portrayal of my posts. You aren't even trying, you're just here to discredit the idea that misogyny is real and to defend MRAs and Rodgers from being called for what they are.

Not addressing any of my points. As usual.
 
The differing reactions thread: a play in one act

ACT I

CHEEZY: Women tend to have different experiences than men in societies that treat men and women differently. Thus it would behoove us men, to whom society is most generous, to make an honest effort to listen to and understand the problems that women face by seeking their perspectives on a broad range of social issues.

THE MRA PEANUT GALLERY: You tellin' me to shut-up??!?!

CHEEZY: Well, now I am.

THE MRA PEANUT GALLERY: THIS IS HOW NAZISM STARTED

La fin

Not addressing any of my points. And resorting to childish mockery. As usual.

And I'm not even talking about the main pro/anti-feminist debate here, I'm simply trying to get a yes or no answer on whether or not anyone actually said that men can't voice opinions (of any worth) about feminism, and whether or not the reasons given as to why that is (or isn't) a valid thing to do are inconsistent. And you can't even tackle that question. You just resort to very thinly-veiled "you're an idiot" responses. Childish.

Moderator Action: Feeding a troll post is not going to be allowed in this thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Not addressing any of my points.

You ought to know, you've done nothing but that in this thread.

And I'm not even talking about the main pro/anti-feminist debate here, I'm simply trying to get a yes or no answer on whether or not anyone actually said that men can't voice opinions (of any worth) about feminism, and whether or not the reasons given as to why that is (or isn't) a valid thing to do are inconsistent. And you can't even tackle that question. You just resort to very thinly-veiled "you're an idiot" responses. Childish.

We've already done that. That's the point.
 
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