Diplo for Team BABE

jb1964 · May 31, 2007

Yes, yrading techs across does mean that we would swap all available techs to each other. This would be in our favor by quite a lot so we would have to come up with a way to make the deal more even. Gold is the best way to do that.

Whomper is on the Babe team correct? I'll hang out on MSN Messanger this evening and say hello. I was a late addition to the Idiots last go around.

I'm not familiar w/ Wotan.

markh · May 31, 2007

That deal would be really sweet then. I cross my fingers that our diplo-gongers will conclude it. :deal:

RFHolloway · May 31, 2007

Is it really so good? - how much is republic worth to us given that we have monarchy? In my view at best half value. (I dont think we would have researched it if we hadn't found them - if we wern't religeous I would say it had no value as the chance of us switching to it would be very small).

Monarchy is still worth more to them if they want the wonder and we agree to let them have it. That makes the beaker values much closer.

I think the deal looks fair, perhaps a slight up for us, but nowhere near as much as some of you think. Securing the rights to any Iron uncontested is far more important.

Daghdha · May 31, 2007

Securing the rights to any Iron uncontested is far more important.

I share this opinion and giving up HG's is a good bait too. All in all it's rather win/win-ish in my :crazyeye:

opinion.

killercane · May 31, 2007

Well I think of it like this:

Republic- 840, everyone will have this, incl. Sumeria. They have to trade it now to us for monarchy for HG. Really a no brainer, at least make Sumeria research it.

Poly- makes sense to try to pop this from a hut. Since we have it, its similar in cost value to MM (360).

So Monarchy/Poly for rep/MM. Even so far.

Math (240) from us for HBR and Wheel (270 total) is about even.

That leaves Philo and CoL (480 collectively) as the good faith techs, both of which would take us an easy 4 turns to research. We can offer currency for these or gold value, something like 60%-70% of the cost is what I would shoot for, like 275-300 gold. If one of us pops a good tech (construction/currency), all the better. RF is right I think its a pretty solid deal for them as well as us.

Edit: Resource distribution (if true), keeping the scientifics backward, a long term peace deal, and the map also make the 100K even more attractive!

RFHolloway · May 31, 2007

I favour droping republic from the deal rather than paying gold. Even if that is not the decision, we can use that arguement in negotiation.

Well which deal would you prefer

Deal A
All their techs except republic for Math, Monarchy,Poly

Deal B
All their techs for Math, Monarchy,Poly plus 300 gold

Deal C
All their techs for Math, Monarchy,Poly plus currency

I prefer deal A over the other two - we can pick Republic up later if we need it, everyone will have it - 300 gold is enough gold to upgrade 3 warriors to GS's, or cash rush a library, lots of useful stuff. currency will be traded for construction if they pop one and we don't

Daghdha · May 31, 2007

Just to chip in a random thought: How would we approach this if we were "sure" to get the Mama Library (12 turns from now)? Having both the Pyramids and the GLib would make us an obviuos target for all teams except the one/s we're allied with. If we're shooting that way, MM would be nice for contacts but other techs maybe not so urget to get.

PrinceMyshkin · May 31, 2007

I've just caught up in reading the excellent discussion so far and see a lot of good points. The timing is right for a deal with Babe and we all agree one is desirable. I've just taken a look at the tech situation of both teams so far.

Beakers for Team Gong vs. Team Babe circa 710BC Turn 93

Leaving off our common techs

Team Gong: masonry(<120)+poly(360) + Monarchy(720) = <1200 beakers over Babe

Team Babe: IW(61) + the Wheel(120) + HBR(150) + CoL(300) + Philo(180) + Republic(840) + MM(Free-360value) = 1651 beakers (2011 total value) over Gong.

Despite our lead in pop. and gpt most of the game and our better gov't. and some turns of GA with the same amount of turns spent in anarchy, they have >451 more beakers than Team Gong. Since they only have one hut left, but not math, they might have popped one more tech from a hut than us for no more than 180(IW) + 30(HBR) leaving them with still >241 in total research thus far. They had potential to put galleys in the water no later than turn 53 when demographics showed a drop in literacy. Possible conclusions: they already have contacts and might have already had a shared research deal with a science team they aren't telling us about or early exploration allowed them to pop more huts. Does any of this change the teams opinions?

They mention they want to extend the life of their UU. Are they then planning war? If so, how great is this value of giving Monarchy to enable GA with GA to them? Does a partnership with them mean we must necessarily go to war as well?

Conditions on this map are favorable for a 100K just as killercane suggests, especially since these plans are sure to remain hidden for some time. The map appears to be one designed to create competition for off-shore resources, which should frustrate teams with an isolationist strategy.

But Daghie has just raised the point about GL making us a target. Somebody will/should get the GL, and the Babes should be easy to convince it is better for us to have it than a science team. Also, the GL should give us the means to alleviate tensions with any teams and help promote trade by doing more gracious deals. We will take steps for our security, but war is just too costly for the aggressor as oppesed to defense and doesn't seem a sound strategy to me.

RF raises a good point about how Republic is devalued for us now, but we really must not let the possible need for this in the future raise its cost for us. Imo, we have to have the Republic. I like this idea of Iterated prisoners dilemma and look forward to reading the article you suggest.

markh is right that we should conclude the deal and highlights how important thoughts from all team members really are. This game is sure to take much real life time and we can't always be sure when we will have the time to participate. Asking questions about your understanding of the language of discussions is helpful and we all should ask them if we are not clear, as responses from other team members like jb's help us see how clear things are to the team. This team approach is going to be our advantage I think since this is not just a human vs. human game, but a game with a large human dimension, imo.

We can resume discussions about what this new information at any time, so I've just mentioned a few thoughts to help the team to consider the different possible deals summarized by RF and look to conclude a deal soon. We still have about 6hrs to take the turn, so any instructions or advice should be posted by 11:00 PM EST (GMT-5).

killercane · May 31, 2007

I fixed it/figured out what I needed to do.

Spoiler :

killercane · May 31, 2007

We have a lot of ideas to discuss w/ BABE that have been presented:

- G Library to slow pace?
- Whether they have contacts? I thought Whomp said they didnt but careful inspection shows he deflected the question like he does.
- Military alliance with them?
- Middle age tech pace and direction?
- How to handle the other civs? (I think we want a piece of the action if they can trade say Monarchy/Poly for something). They are kings of contact anyway, maybe we can just stay in the loop.

PrinceMyshkin · May 31, 2007

Thx, kc, that's just what I wanted to see. Everybody should look at that if they haven't done diplo before.

I'm going to take a closer look, so everbody jump in with answers to kc's questions. Those look difficult, so I guess we aren't in too much of a hurry. When should we proceed w/ the turn?

killercane · May 31, 2007

Probably we can play it right away. Nothing probably can be done this turn.

PrinceMyshkin · May 31, 2007

Allright. I think we should just keep watching for developments and be ready to make an offer when we get math 5-turns from now. I didn't join "with everything laid out", just volunteered to take the turns and do my best. I think I can keep coming up with some ideas and plans, but everybody on the team should do the same. I guess I should at least check foreign adsvisor and look for embassies, right?

Edit: Where should we send the Irish Rover?

killercane · May 31, 2007

I was thinking it could go west to that other spot to try and make contact with someone else since we dont really need to see BABE lands very bad.

Probably we should check the military advisor for them too but we can do that any old time.

jb1964 · May 31, 2007

Whomper didn't answer the question about contacts...

5/30/2007 9:37:20 PM casey j Whomp ah you probably have some more contacts then, or will soon with the Lighthosue
5/30/2007 9:37:36 PM Whomp casey j I think so. Have you met anyone?
5/30/2007 9:37:51 PM Whomp casey j I'll show if you show.
5/30/2007 9:38:00 PM casey j Whomp nope, we sent curraghs out in 4 directions, hopefully 2 will make it
5/30/2007 9:38:27 PM Whomp casey j Well our galley is in your way this turn

He changed direction on the last line and never came back around to sharing who the Babe's were in contact with.

It would seem Prince's number crunching does add up to the fact that the Babes are in contact with others.

Does this change the deal for us? As long as it includes a long term peace agreement then I think it does not.

See if we can get a contract for first right of refusal to trade luxes when the time comes.

If resources are spread out then a space shot is going to be next to impossible. Going 100k we control our destiny. And has been pointed out, the team that throws the first punch is likely to get taken out second.

PrinceMyshkin · May 31, 2007

Thanks for suggestion kc, expect turn to be passed soon.

Good points, jb. It shouldn't worry us or prevent a deal, it is good to see if we can gain info not shared. We don't want to reveal all plans, all the time, either. I think it may be a good idea to put diplo discussions in spoilers to let the team provide input, but that's up for debate. Expect turn update in 2-3 hrs.

PrinceMyshkin · May 31, 2007

I just looked in foreign advisor and have a question that needs an answer. Do I need to "accept offer" or not? Is that the 20-turn peace deal?

killercane · May 31, 2007

If theres nothing in the window, its probably just where they were checking our techs and didnt close out the window first. Its a harmless bug, nothing to worry about.

PrinceMyshkin · May 31, 2007

Thx, I do see the peace treaty in active deals. Ending turn now.

jb1964 · May 31, 2007

killercane said:
If theres nothing in the window, its probably just where they were checking our techs and didnt close out the window first.

Cute.

Here's a chat I had w/ Whomper this evening while Killer whispered in my ear. Editted for clarity, emphasis and humor.

Spoiler :

And after all the talk of tech swapping, are we still set on bagging the GLib?

Diplo for Team BABE

Hunter of Fish

Deity

Analyst in the UK

Absent Minded

Deity

Analyst in the UK

Absent Minded

King

Deity

Deity

King

Deity

King

Deity

Hunter of Fish

King

King

Deity

King

Hunter of Fish

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