Diplo for Team BABE

RFHolloway · Jun 2, 2007

Would be nice to trade some techs, sounds like the only tech we have a monopoly on is monarchy. I fear we are going to be behind in techs, unless we can get another contact. I think it is pretty obvious that we weren't the first contact Babes had, I wonder if they have 2 others.

Just a thought, given that the map wraps in both directions is it worth sailing in the direction away from the Babes and seeing if we come into contact with someone else thay way.

killercane · Jun 2, 2007

We have a lot of new information. JB and I talked to Whomp the BABE Information Minister today. I dont have time to dissect yet but there is a lot to digest. Free and Council are in the middle ages, BABE want an alliance, sell techs for 75% cost, and we work out something on the hut attempts (try to get Construction and currency in other words). BABES have poly from a hut (allegedly...). It seems they are willing to jump in bed with us if we want to do it.

Spoiler :

PrinceMyshkin · Jun 3, 2007

That's a great deal. Good job guys.

Here's a thought:
If we stay WLTKD we can have Library at turn 104.

Would they be interested in giving Republic and 2 contacts in the MA
With assurances of course on deals allowed w/contacts-lowers tech cost for us with shared research path in MA. Automatic trade of tech at a big discount(thanks for getting us out of a pickle), defensive pact only? Possible war against aggressors if they need the help.

This adds 4 more turns (>1 week RL?) to work other details.

We are ready to pop huts by turn 98 or later on command.

I guess Colossus on turn 97 is okay if they prefer, but the above idea might work better for both of us.

Gotta love the farmer's gambits

PrinceMyshkin · Jun 3, 2007

We could also do MoM on turn 104 as well at Sugar Mtn.

jb1964 · Jun 3, 2007

I have worked out the deal to a small degree and then was booted from the comp by the family. I have a whole bunch of RL until late when I'll be able to put up our offer to the Babes.

The short of it is, we're swapping techs, 80 turns of peace, compensation for the imballance from whatever tech(s) we pop.

Thanks for the ideas Prince, I'll see if we can incorporate them but I don't think we need Republic. After we switch to Feud, which isn't terribly far away we're done w/ government changes.

Comments/Feedback/etc. welcome and needed.

PrinceMyshkin · Jun 3, 2007

jb1964 said:
I'll see if we can incorporate them but I don't think we need Republic. After we switch to Feud, which isn't terribly far away we're done w/ government changes.

I've not gotten too far with Feudal whip 100K, but I can see it works great. But aren't we limited in our expansion ability? How many more cities than 55 can we get? RF summed up build priorities pretty well I think and we need more of his opinion on this.

RFHolloway said:
I think it as easy as growth then culture. Build priority (not order) is settler worker library temple when playing. Eventually there comes a point in the expansion where you have a core producing settlers, some cities near food bonuses churning workers, but the rest can't really produce a settler or a worker because they can't grow fast enough. Those start with a library, grow a bit, then a settler.

This does all change though when I get to feudalism. Then I am pop rushing culture. That seems far more effective than rep parts. (any city that has completed all the culture just builds workers to join to any city that hasn't)

On this map we just can't keep building settlers. I put his suggestion "growth then culture" together with his other idea about the rare condition of burning through to replaceable parts. I also used the same strategy kc used for the #1 spaceship but also put growth as priority. Growth equals tech I realized. Why was I slowing expansion to build libraries? Result: 850AD 100K on standard chieftain even though with seven science ai's none got monotheism, medicine, or computers on the age changes. And plenty on this team could use the strategy faster than me, since I'm just learning studying these games.

I'm not even questioning that Feudal rush isn't the best strategy for the fastest time. RF has 3-turns faster on the table above chieftain and #1 isn't even C3C. But do we need the fastest? Can we do it fast enough to avoid carriers full of bombers, and ship chains of marines? I agree getting Republic isn't of the utmost urgency, but we'll need it if we need to keep up in tech. We need some good estimates on when teams are going to get flight and amphibious war and when we can expect to reach 100K without getting many more cities than the 54-55 we see now. If we can beat the fast tech teams going for these then, I agree, let's whip and sing and dance to victory. If not, maybe we want to keep the lead in tech and use later tools to really crank the culture. We need Republic for that even if we change governments twice to at least whip temples, libraries, and a few universities, then back to Republic for fast tech. You don't just get replaceable parts, there is also rails(more pop and specialists), electricity(waterless islands), and nationalism(draft disband). Great for defense as well as acclerating what would be a slower start on 100K masking our plan longer. I'm going to go along with whatever the team thinks is best, so I'm not trying to be argumentative, only helpful.

The deal is great and I've now got no concerns about the Babes right now. I thought they might be building barracks and galley chains. The rest of the team seemed concerned as well. But they're doing farmer's gambit, just gained +2 in score in anarchy, and most of their strength probably is boats. It's a great partnership, so whatever deal we get is fine. We do need a decision whether to change DSOTM to Colossus on the next turn though. So, I'm done talking so others can give their thoughts. Just tell me when its fine to take the turn and what to build at DSOTM and don't just leave me hanging on what the team wants to do. Team Gong's wish is my command.

Edit: Team Free got the turn at 6:49AM EST (GMT-5) and CommandoBob usually posts turns around 2:00AM EST (GMT-5) about 15 hrs from now.

killercane · Jun 3, 2007

Da Prince said:
Here's a thought:
If we stay WLTKD we can have Library at turn 104.

Would they be interested in giving Republic and 2 contacts in the MA
With assurances of course on deals allowed w/contacts-lowers tech cost for us with shared research path in MA. Automatic trade of tech at a big discount(thanks for getting us out of a pickle), defensive pact only? Possible war against aggressors if they need the help.

This adds 4 more turns (>1 week RL?) to work other details.

We are ready to pop huts by turn 98 or later on command.

I guess Colossus on turn 97 is okay if they prefer, but the above idea might work better for both of us.

Gotta love the farmer's gambits

All good ideas. When Sabre feels they are being left out of the picture they will surely go for the Great Library. I wonder if Babes will/can attack them by then? Im sure that will be their target. I dont think Free or Council have any desire for the library since they are ahead.

I am pretty sure the Feudie rush is the way to go, the problem is the maintenance. I think we can have workers and growth in place to buy ten shields or 20 into a temple/library, switch to Feudie, whip the building, and then switch back to Republic then. Or whip, wait a turn, and whip again, but that takes a lot of worker add ins. We would then have 275 culture per turn in short order (probably closer to 300 with the other culture stuff). The problem is this is 100 gold of maintenance and growth in the outlying towns will be slowed with taxmen/scientists. But we can build more workers in the core while the other cities make bombard units and troops to handle a landing. Our research will eventually peter out though, and we will have to then just build culture (by 600 AD, when our culture doubles we will have 600 culture). If we can attain Rep Parts by then, that would be fantastic, and we can build the other 7 cpt buildings (uni, cath), taking us to right at 1000 cpt.

This makes RF's idea of ToA a great one, but only if it lasts a while. 55 gold per turn maintenance times 30 turns even would be pretty decent. I dont know if we should build Colossus or not, but it will certainly help the maintenance.

The good thing is BABE is not even considering us to go for culture, I think JB remarked how oblivious they were. We probably should even try to get a longer peace deal extension before we rush all the culture.

jb1964 · Jun 3, 2007

killercane said:
I think JB remarked how oblivious they were. We probably should even try to get a longer peace deal extension before we rush all the culture.

Babes once offhandedly remarked about somebody going 100k culture, but all their conversation was firmly entrenced in this turning into a naval war game.

They also seem a bit bent on settling a few lingering beefs from last game. We should certainly encourage the violence.

At what point do you think these guys are going to say, "Umm, the Gongers are going 100k!?" And if they come to the conclusion that it's a serious threat then the cooperation is going to end abruptly. We should get peace and any other kind of agreements that we can, for as long as we can. However, if our victory is pending you can bet all deals are off/broken and there will be mass cooperation to drop a real big hurt on us.

This is going to be fun.

jb1964 · Jun 3, 2007

OK, we do want Republic and we can have them toss that into the deal for our future use.

If the Babes don't want Monarchy, because they have not planned for an HG wornder Golden Age, then who's the next best customer for that tech and a shot at the HG's?

PrinceMyshkin · Jun 3, 2007

RFHolloway said:
Would be nice to trade some techs, sounds like the only tech we have a monopoly on is monarchy. I fear we are going to be behind in techs, unless we can get another contact. I think it is pretty obvious that we weren't the first contact Babes had, I wonder if they have 2 others.

Just a thought, given that the map wraps in both directions is it worth sailing in the direction away from the Babes and seeing if we come into contact with someone else thay way.

You've probably seen the diplo conversation, but you had the same concern I did. If all teams had been dark, The Babes could've left everbody in the dust charging us for the dribbles to keep up. They do have 2 contacts, probably 3 soon. The Council and Free have a tech deal and are in MA, so the Babes are definitely needing some help. They know Sabre who is behind like us, but want to leave them behind(something about revenge). JB even offered a military alliance, and they said, "Uh..thx, but how can you help with that."(chopped quote) That leaves us free to to proceed with our 100K, help them out, play nice, and get a defense ready down the road when "all bets are off." Even keeps us in the loop with tech without carrying the load. Perfect for us, I think. We can even give assurances (do we get more Babes for that) on any deals they don't want us to do when we contact others. I want to meet FREE and probe the possibility of getting them out of the Councils grip. It was Korea's early curragh that got them to the MA. They didn't have any choice not to agree to advance. And the plan is to send boats in directions away from the Babes, I think. Babes + Gong = 47%pop 25% land now. Free is close to our size, I think.

We're definitely going to get a deal and with the Babes doing math our slider is free. The big choice for the next turn is Colossus or proceed with Library at DSOTM. Saber's industrious, and really could throw that down any turn, if they get construction all they need is Great Wall and they're Golden.

Here's my opinion, subject to the GONG (I loved that show growing up). Colossus is nice and prevents an early GA from Korea, but they need a science wonder as well. I've worked out if we stay WLTKD we can put up the Library and MoM(we don't need this, but it shuts the door on science GA) on turn 104. If Saber gets the Library, we simply continue to the next build on the priority list, ToA on turn 108 near 100% of getting. Other teams think, "yay we beat them to the Library and they took that to not eat shields". MoM just sows more confusion--"they just don't have a clue, do they"- "harmless beer guzzlers(lol)", or we foiled their plan to prevent GA. Saber with Library is dangerous(especially since the Babes don't want to deal with them), but the Babes might be able to prevent contacts or at least use their navy to contain them. Besides the savings cost there is one other security advantage of getting that wonder. Our borders pop out to sea giving us more sight in 19 turns. We probably won't be set up to switch to Feudal and whip temples and/or libraries before switching back to Republic. ToA frees maintenence and runs until Theology. If we can go the lower MA path while the Babes go the upper path, we can work the timing of tech swaps into the deal to get more use(some of this is hazy and fuzzy of course).

jb1964 said:
If the Babes don't want Monarchy, because they have not planned for an HG wornder Golden Age, then who's the next best customer for that tech and a shot at the HG's?

Team Free is the only customer and we can get that before the end of the GA at Sugar Mtn. as well, so Babe owes us something for guaranteeing not to trade that with them.

jb1964 said:
Babes once offhandedly remarked about somebody going 100k culture, but all their conversation was firmly entrenced in this turning into a naval war game.

I believe in strong navy as well. Better to sink loaded transports than deal with all the stacks that are going to land at the final countdown.

That's just a summary of what I see everybody saying and still plenty of time to work out plans, details and changes. Sorry if it isn't all laid out to the last detail.

Advice on where to spend to gold for a rushed unit appreciated and fleet directions. I'll switch the pre-build to palace next turn unless the Babes would really rather us build the Colossus or the team says no to Library with ToA fallback. All replies appreciated.

RickFGS · Jun 3, 2007

I vote The Great Lib as i already did on the play turn thread, we have only one contact and are behind on tech.

Although The Colossus could help on the maintenance since it seems we are going diplo.

We need to start making non-agression/border pacts with the The Babes and others to keeps us from future wars.

jb1964 · Jun 3, 2007

OK Gang, this is really so simple I'm sorry it took so long to post but I've quite a bit of RL this weekend.

Spoiler :

Remember this... we could shape the compensation for techs here to benefit us greatly if we were to build the TGLib. Or we could use it to endear ourselves to team Babe by making them our benefactor/protectors.

I have not made Republic part of this agreement because we'll wind up paying the Babes 75% of 840 (630g). There is no need for this if we can get the GLib on turn 104 and at the writing of this note are on turn 95.

jb1964 · Jun 3, 2007

Just got a note from Whomper and they're not going to need Math but will still just swap all the techs plus 150g from us. That seems pretty fair.

Notes...

Spoiler :

PrinceMyshkin · Jun 3, 2007

OK, when did they want us to accept that, jb?

EDIT: Ignore post, stupid question.

jb1964 · Jun 3, 2007

OK, here's more thread than you want to read... I'll sumarize below.

I hope you guys are OK w/ goodwill and a handshake but here's the deal... Babe's ready to be our long time buddies regarding techs, luxes, resources, etc.
They're going to send us all remaining required techs minus construction and curr. On the next turn we're sending them a 150g downpayment on these techs or whatever downpayment we're willing to muster.
We're going to pop the huts and send them whatever we get.
Whoever gets the better of the deal will compensate the other in gold based on discounted beakers.
Whomper and I will be working a bit of the numbers tomorrow while we should be earning a paycheck.

On the intell side...
Whomper tells me that Free is in very close proximity to us and Council has their back.
Whomp confirms that they, Free, don't have a safe navigable route at the moment but are probably close to making knights. We need a reaction force to deny access to our beaches. GS's would do nicely thank you very much.
Free may not know we're close to each other but it's certainly nice for us to know.

Spoiler :

killercane · Jun 4, 2007

Im pretty sure its

GONG ISLAND

FREE BABE

Beyond that its hard to say. Council has Free's back and their early contact indicates they are adjacent to them somehow, hard to say where. It hardly matters if FREE has Knights, they need Astronomy to get them somewhere!

It seems as if BABE is intent on taking on Sabre asap and initiating their golden age.

If we build the GLibrary, I think we should finish the FP there first and take the extra gpt generated. I think we should have a good shot as long as BABE acts like they are going to trade with Sabre. If we lose out, we still have a prebuild for Leos. If the others shoot for Astro, then good deal, we will get that too by delaying contact. Assuming Free is SW, we can block them and make them land somewhere nice and non hilly should they come.

jb1964 · Jun 4, 2007

killercane said:
If we build the GLibrary, I think we should finish the FP there first and take the extra gpt generated. I think we should have a good shot as long as BABE acts like they are going to trade with Sabre. If we lose out, we still have a prebuild for Leos. If the others shoot for Astro, then good deal, we will get that too by delaying contact. Assuming Free is SW, we can block them and make them land somewhere nice and non hilly should they come.

OK, I'll see if I can get Babe to bait Sabre into thinking the tech deals are coming. If nothing else to just drag their feet on communication. If Sabre thinks they're out in the cold they're going to scamper for GLib fast.

The odds of the other tech trading block going for GLib are slim to none.

jb1964 · Jun 4, 2007

Following note sent to Babe per Killercane's thots....

Hey Whomper, I'll be on later this evening but wanted to prime the pump, so to speak, before that.

Prince started sending you gold. He didn't have 150g laying around so it's going to come in installments.

We're prepped to pop the huts the turn we get the Techs.

I know you're interested in stuffing Sabre but is there a way we can use them to counter the other block? Making a 3v2 alliance for the time being and saving the Sabre bloodshed for a later date?

Big picture, 3 kills 2, we kill Sabre, we shake hands and wish each other the best.

Whether or not we work out a 3v2 deal with them we need you to string them along w/ discussions, and maybe even a deal or two, to keep them from going after GLib w/ a pre-build. Can you spell out their current techs for us and any assessment you may have as to pre-builds?

We'll make a run at the GLib but we don't have anything pre built that would make it a sure thing. We had a run at pumping out units to cover our shores that took the focus off bigger infrasturcture builds. We think we can still get it but the risk being Sabre might leverage a pre-build and the upside is we'll both be getting more from the Free/Council techs machine if delayed.

Now for the real good news. We have two sources of iron.

I didn't want to tell him we're going FP first in a gambit to pull down more gold and I wanted to leave him the impression we had enough units running about to stuff a landing should that be lurking in the back's of their collective Blonde Bombshell Babe head.

If I laid out the FP to GLib idea that's just too much info.

RickFGS · Jun 4, 2007

Dont say anything about what wonders we building, what we hoping to kill or unite or whatever, just talk about the weather

, better yet, just pretend we lost the ability to speak at all until things get a bit clear.

Our atitude should be - we dont know nothing, we dont plan nothing, we just make it up as we go along, now lets trade some more techs pls?

jb1964 · Jun 5, 2007

Whomper's response to the suggested 3v2 schenario was a cold one. Babe is absolutely not interested in helping Sabre in any way shape or form. So a 3v2 (Gong/Babe/Sabre vs. Council/Free) scenario is out.

Looks like we're in w/ Babe for the time being.

Although Babe's not interested in the 3v2 scenario it would be good if we could find Sabre and yank their chain ourselves w/ enough tech sharing and cooperation to keep them off our scent. Or at the very least keep them guessing.

We need to find the others so we don't have to broker through Babe.

Diplo for Team BABE

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