Diplomacy is the weakest part of my game

Janus0

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I'm an immortal player and my diplomacy sucks. I honestly think that its the weakest part of my game and I'd like some help on it. I've read the triangle diplomacy setups and most of the example games that have been posted, but for some reason it just isn't clicking.

I usually play standard or large big and small maps on epic or marathon. I change leaders so often it might as well be random, though I prefer Washington and the spiritual, creative, and financial leaders (or shaka, cause of the UU/UB). About 90% of the time, I win by domination. When I don't win by domination, I win by space. I can't seem to pull off cultural victories, and I've never even been close to an honest diplo win.

My typical game shapes up like this:

I expand to build 3-5 cities peacefully while researching worker and early war techs. I won't sign open boarders with nearby civs until I've settled all the land I can get. When all the land that I'm going to get peacefully is settled, I open my borders to everyone. Amusingly enough, opening boarders usually means I get demands to cancel deals with people, which cancels out any help that might have given me.

When I have my slider 70% or higher, and I feel comfortable tech / SoD wise, I start eating neighbors until my ecconomy starts tanking. I rebuild ecconomicly, rinse, and repeat.

Normally one of my close neighbors and one of my farther neighbors will found a religion. I won't bother aggressively spreading the closer one, but if I get the farther one I will do my best. I do this mostly because I know I'm going to be warring often and the "you declared war on our friends" and "you razed our city!" demerits are going to kick in and I'm stuck trading with the "other" religious block regardless of what my religion actually is.

The problem with this strategy is that about 3/4ths of the time, I don't get that other religion. I'm stuck with no religion or religious civic (which is a whole other problem) and by the time I do get the other religion, I'm attacking that religion's members.

Eventually, I just end up not having any real close friends. The AI doesn't get friendly enough for me to bribe them into war, so I just trade techs with them. They make demands, and because there are other civs to trade with I tell them to go away.

Eventually all the civs have made demands, and all of them have been told to go away, and I don't have anyone who will trade techs with me any more.

I'll take over (or better yet, vassalise for the -1 diplo penalty) everyone on my continent, then the empty islands around me (I almost always have astronomy by the time its possible to take the continent), and then make a last attack on another land mass to push me over the land / pop threshold for victory.

While I don't really have trouble winning with this strategy, it is rather problematic when things don't go according to plan. If I fall behind in techs before I've taken about half the continent I lose. If I can get the whole thing under my belt before an isolated AI starts running away with the game, its a clear win. The problem is this: I don't want to lose the game just because I'm not adhearing to my time table. I want the option to say "okay, I don't have the techs to keep warring, time to settle down and pull off some other kind of victory"

But I can't because my strategy basicly backs me into the "conquer or die" corner. Can anyone relate? Give me some advice on how to keep friends while crushing my enemies.
 
Eventually all the civs have made demands, and all of them have been told to go away, and I don't have anyone who will trade techs with me any more.

But I can't because my strategy basicly backs me into the "conquer or die" corner. Can anyone relate? Give me some advice on how to keep friends while crushing my enemies.

[Rant Mode]
I know that feeling. The whole diplomacy system is biased against the player. They come making demands, giving you the "Refused to Help" demerits - sometimes asking for stuff they would not even give you after you beaten them down to the last unit. If you demand something they give you "Arrogant Demand" demerits. They never seem to concider what diplomatic stance you might have towards them... If you want them to join your war, you must bribe... They just come demanding, and give you "Refused to Help" if you not comply... Has a AI ever offered something - be it just they World Map - to you for joining in a war ?!

Sometimes i get the feeling the whole diplomacy system is deliberately designed to make the player as [pissed] as possible. The cartoonish Leader animations do not help either.

When i see for example Zara Jakob grunting on me for greetings, i do not even bother to read what he wants, i just decline.

Well... i guess the rant is not really helpful... but i get :mad: sometimes just from thinking about it :D
[/Rant Mode]

Let's try to be more cunstructive here...

-----

You mentioned triangle diplo. Cant be freind with everyone, just try to please one or two.

The Key - at least for me - is avoiding Tech Demands. Because as you said - if i see them demanding a expensive tech, which i know they would NEVER give me, i can't help it, i have to decline. I can live with giving some Gold sometimes, or a ressource (of course cancel ASAP), but techs are TABU. So must try to make them not demand it in the first place.

The obvious possibility is - trading it around fast - if i dont have nothing on them, they can't make a stupid demand. This is however not allways applicable/desirable - sometimes you really need to hold on to a couple of tech for a while.

The other thing is, if they are pleased or friendly to you (must get there somehow first), ask something from them from time to time. Asking for "help" will not give "Arrogant Demand" demerit. Dont ask too much - they never give you tech - but some Gold - maybe 100 - they are likely to give.

If they give in to a request it gives you "Can Not Declare War" for 10 turns. Might be just my imagination, but i think the AI never comes Asking/Demanding stuff while in "Can Not Declare War" state. (can someone confirm/rebut this ?!)
 
Some suggestions.

Open borders sooner.

Found your own religion and control it's spread.

Be peaceful until another AI breaks the ice, then dogpile.

Do not trade with an AI that's hated by your future friend. Or take open borders then cancel all deals.

Do not underestimate favorite civics.

Give tribute. Even giving a good tech (Nothing rediculous like Education) but something like CoL you just teched is a good deal.

Declaring war will make yourself enemies.

Know your friends: Persians, Americans, English (not Liz), Brennus, Indians (Not Sitting Bull), Incans, Mayans.

Know your eventual enemies: Mongols, French, Russians, Boudica, Romans, Zulu, Monty, Japan.

Know the backstabbers: Chinese, Russians (yeah they are in both), Ottomans, Germans.


Watch who likes who and who is likely to remain friends. Willem is easy enough but you know he switches to FR fast and loses and diplo modifiers to war the religious ones. Ditto Liz, and usually Asoka.

Sounds to me like your guns and swords are your diplomatic tools.
 
Know your friends: Persians, Americans, English (not Liz), Brennus, Indians (Not Sitting Bull), Incans, Mayans.

And whou would taht be ?! The only indio civ not in the list is... Monthy :lol:

Btw. Japan happens to be a excellent ally - IF by some inexplicabple twist you mange to break the ice in the first place.
 
And whou would taht be ?! The only indio civ not in the list is... Monthy :lol:

Btw. Japan happens to be a excellent ally - IF by some inexplicabple twist you mange to break the ice in the first place.

By Indians I mean Gandhi and Asoka.

Yeah Toku can be a valuable ally if you do handstands all game by which time everyone else will hate you. Best to hate him and take him out if he's next to you or just ignore him if there is a buffer zone.
 
I don't lose too many games, but of the games that I do lose, it's usually because I end up getting dog-piled by a group of civ's - I usually attribute this to a diplomacy problem. They're typically a group of civs that love each other an hate me, and though I keep a strong military, sometimes things don't work out. So, I consider diplomacy to be somewhat of a weak point of mine, too.
 
Know your friends: Persians, Americans, English (not Liz), Brennus, Indians (Not Sitting Bull), Incans, Mayans.

Interesting list. I never much trusted HC, with his dodgy peace probability, low base peace weight and high aggression level.
 
HC likes to tech and has a popular and easy favorite civic early in the game (HR). Also post-democracy those "you have chosen wisely in your civics" has warmed him up quite a bit where he is friendly for most of the game. Also he will tend to have less land than me and usually not a military threat at that point.
 
@madscientist

Have you ever been backstabbed by an AI with a high base peace weight, but a <100% peace probability at pleased? I mean when their attitude towards you is pleased (e.g Roosevelt, Vic, Liz, Mansa etc)?
 
Some suggestions.
Know your friends: Persians, Americans, English (not Liz), Brennus, Indians (Not Sitting Bull), Incans, Mayans.

Persians? Lately I've had Cyrus cause lots of problems - I don't know what his tendancies are in the XML off hand, but it seems like he exhibits a lot of warmonger traits just from observation.
 
@madscientist

Have you ever been backstabbed by an AI with a high base peace weight, but a <100% peace probability at pleased? I mean when their attitude towards you is pleased (e.g Roosevelt, Vic, Liz, Mansa etc)?

Of course. Diplomacy is not 100%, never was meant to be. If you are not friendly or have a significant number of negative modifiers you should be prepared for anything.

But those AIs are the ones you can generally trust more than others, and they will remember past good relations.
 
Persians? Lately I've had Cyrus cause lots of problems - I don't know what his tendancies are in the XML off hand, but it seems like he exhibits a lot of warmonger traits just from observation.

OK, I won't argue here. BTS Cyrus is different than Warlod/Vanilla Cyrus. However, he generally can befriended and he is one of the AIs most likely to sign a defensive pact.
 
Of course. Diplomacy is not 100%, never was meant to be. If you are not friendly or have a significant number of negative modifiers you should be prepared for anything.

But those AIs are the ones you can generally trust more than others, and they will remember past good relations.

Actually, the question I asked was genuine. When I was semi-isolated with Roosevelt, I got him to pleased, avoided being attacked, but despite his proud smiling face, never really knew how close he came to making a decision to go to war with me. He was always much stronger militarily btw. I don't really know at which point the Base Peace Weight becomes so high that the lower peace probabilities don't much matter, if there is such a point.
 
OK, I won't argue here. BTS Cyrus is different than Warlod/Vanilla Cyrus. However, he generally can befriended and he is one of the AIs most likely to sign a defensive pact.

I think we had this discussion before - did you verify that Cyrus is indeed different in BTS, or is that just from observation? I'm curious what, if any, attributes were adjusted.
 
I think we had this discussion before - did you verify that Cyrus is indeed different in BTS, or is that just from observation? I'm curious what, if any, attributes were adjusted.

I have noticed he initiates wars against mostly AIs as i tend to work on him diplomatically. Also have observed that those "defensive Pacts" are useless as he usually declares peace after a 5 turn phoney war.

If you remember my HOY SAL RPC game, he was pretty peaceful during that game.Other times I have seen him try (usually unsuccessfully) are domination, but again not against me.
 
I still have a very limited diplomacy game, but here are a few small points I've picked up along the way:

  • Don't trade rape. In other words, don't always take everything you can get for whatever you have to give. Whatever the AI is willing to give, take less; whatever the AI wants, give more. (The obvious exception is to military technologies or other highly-strategic technologies you can't afford the AI to have.)

  • Keep active resource trades. The longer you keep an active resource trade (whether giving or receiving), the more merits you get with the AI. It might also be my imagination, but it also feels to me like the AI is less likely to declare war on you if you're their only source of {insert resource here}.

  • Don't just make war: make WORLD WAR! Bribe others to war with you or against each other. They key is to provoke your closest competitor into some sort of war (especially if you can pit it against him). If everybody else is warring at the same time you are, then it's less likely an AI will run away with the tech lead.

  • Don't neglect espionage. A well-timed stolen technology or a well-timed resource sabotage (esp. strategic resources while the civ is at war) can go a long way towards regaining lost tech parity.

  • And everything else MadScientist said.


-- my 2 :commerce:
 
@ madscientist - Was there a reason that Hattie didn't make the "Know your friends" list? I've found her to be a useful ally personally, but maybe you know something I don't.

EDIT: I can see the potential for her taking cultural victories out from under your nose if she's in a good position.
 
Another observation in BTS. If you are pleased or friendly with an AI, I tend to get random events that help our relationship cementing those bonds further. Of course it goes the other way too.

OTAKU, I have noticed that also. I have yet to see and AI who I supply iron, elephants, copper, or horses to attack me. Of course I am not trading them to the Shakas and Monty's of the world but you get my drift.
 
@ madscientist - Was there a reason that Hattie didn't make the "Know your friends" list? I've found her to be a useful ally personally, but maybe you know something I don't.

EDIT: I can see the potential for her taking cultural victories out from under your nose if she's in a good position.

Only because her name did not pop into my head while I was typing.

I conside rher a friend, and enerally Ramses but a little less so.

Another leader who has turned into a backstabber in BTS is Hannibal. Often I see him declaring war on me very late in the game.
 
Only because her name did not pop into my head while I was typing.

I conside rher a friend, and enerally Ramses but a little less so.

Another leader who has turned into a backstabber in BTS is Hannibal. Often I see him declaring war on me very late in the game.

What about Darius?

Peaceful. Won't attack when pleased. Will sign defensive pacts when pleased. Reasonable tech trader.
 
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