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DMOC's DEITY Game #4 - Suryavarman II

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Jan 27, 2011.

  1. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 9 - 1470 AD to 1816 AD [72 Turns] - Two Civilizations Eliminated (Part II)

    Unfortunately, my plans for the Three Gorges Damn failed. Oh well, but Plastics is still important because it unlocks Computers.



    Mehmed, you can't do this to me. :shake: Incidentally, Ragnar did declare war on him, as expected.



    After Plastics, I researched Refrigeration. I can't remember why I chose this, but I think it had something to do with (1) lack of others having that technology, and (2) my severe health problems in the empire.



    It was almost time for war, so I began to position my troops in necessary positions. Mao has several island cities, so I wanted to ensure that I had the necessary navy to take those cities before the war began. My plan was to load 16 tanks into 4 transports (guarded by a combination of destroyers and battleships produced by my Moai Statues city) and then split them in half to concurrently attack Hannibal's last city and the Chinese city of Ningbo. Ignore the "7" on the signs, I ended up bring 8 for extra insurance. Other than those 16 tanks, my army was situated on the mainland in two stacks, ready to attack Mao's land cities.



    Thanks, Willem, for forgetting a tech that I obtained via trade, which got him out of WFYABTA. :goodjob: Once I finished Refrigeration, it was right to Computers!



    Of course, I still had to take steps to ensure that Ragnar didn't become Boudica from my last deity game, playing as Willem. Yes, this is the second big major tech I've given Ragnar ...



    On the turn of war, turn 261, 1755 AD :)lol:), I had amassed considerable quantities of tanks, and checked the power graph. It was good, but a notable neighbor was missing.




    War start! My tanks wasted no time getting in position of two island cities, as well as preparing to strike at mainland China. One stack of tanks is missing -- it's to the north. Both of my mainland stacks are equipped with a Great General Medic III cavalry and a sentry cavalry.





    I didn't get to capture a city on the first turn, so I waited for Mao's response. It wasn't too bad for me, but he did destroy most of the fleet guarding my transports. This was what was left from a stack of about 10 ships:



    Other than that, he beefed up several cities' defenses, and he later would pillage my seafood. I didn't have enough ships to protect them all, so some had to go.

    Nonetheless, I was able to take both of the coastal cities. In the process, I wiped out Hannibal and freed many cities of the "We yearn to join our motherland" unhappiness. These were their defenses to start with:





    Mao's machine gun proved to be the most formidable defender, and I believe I lost 2 or 3 tanks just to get rid of it. But I was still able to take both cities with about 3 (wounded) tanks left over on each side.

    Given that I didn't have any artillery or planes to weaken defenders, I didn't want to waste tanks trying to attack Shanghai. I changed plans and moved the northern stack south, so it would meet up with the other mainland stack.



    Meanwhile, my rivals were pursuing other goals of their own:



    Normally, I am unhappy to see Catherine build the UN since most AIs for some reason love her. But in this case, Ragnar was pleased towards her, and that's all the assurance I need that she won't win a diplomatic victory. I'll be her rival for secretary general since I am leading the world in population.

    After capturing the two Chinese mainland cities directly south of Shanghai, I combined the relatively healthy tanks (the tile 22 of Shanghai) along with some new recruits (the tile 66 of Shanghai) to attack Shanghai. Capturing this city would prove to be the costliest attack of the entire war, and I think I lost 9 or 10 tanks. :eek:



    With my forces terrorizing and capturing China, I obtained a crucial technology for catch-up purposes.



    I looked at the tech situation ...



    :dubious: How did Cyrus, of all people, get Computers that quickly? He got it the same turn as me, but I'm sure he doesn't have a production city like this that can build the Internet in 8 turns.



    On the same turn ...



    Excellent! This was one less civ under Ragnar's control.

    On the beginning of the 19th century, I took control of Xian and, most importantly, Beijing. At this point, Mao was clearly out of gas, and my strong production base was rolling out 3-5 tanks per turn. I made an effort to reduce military production and focus on grocers and supermarkets in many cities that were suffering from severe levels of unhealthiness.





    Two cities later, Mao was gone. The war lasted from turns 261 to turn 275.




    So what happens next? Did we get the Internet? Was Ragnar running away with the game? Stay tuned.

    [To be continued in the next post.]
     
  2. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 9 - 1470 AD to 1816 AD [72 Turns] - Two Civilizations Eliminated (Part III)


    On the same turn China disappeared, this was the tech situation.



    But then, on the following turn ... :goodjob:



    We are among the tech leaders. :banana: I obtained these techs from the internet:

    1. Divine Right
    2. Fascism
    3. Communism
    4. Mass Media
    5. Medicine
    6. Fission
    7. Flight
    8. Military Science
    9. Artillery
    10. Rocketry
    11. Satellites
    12. Robotics (after a few turns)

    Now I'm facing a situation where I need to make a major decision. I gathered most of my tanks over to Angkor Wat. It's a powerful stack ...



    But what should I do about Ragnar?





    One option is to build the Manhattan Project, which my capital can build in 5 turns. However, that allows Ragnar to retaliate with nuclear weapons as well. And if I try to attack with non-nuclear weapons ... I'll be going up against a modern era deity AI with tons of good land. In theory, I can outproduce him, given my slight MFG advantage. But since Ragnar has spammed Sid's Sushi into my cities, it's getting costlier and costlier to maintain these corporations. If I switch out of Free Market and into State Property, that could nullify much of my MFG.

    Current demographics and other information:




    My current empire, split into regions to make viewing easier.








    Rival nations:







    I don't have cultural victories to worry about ... yet ...



    Civics:



    ... and taxes.



    So what's the plan??

    Even though it seems crazy, I want to attack Ragnar. This will be a chance for me to display my non-existent modern warfare skills against possibly the toughest opponent I have ever faced in my Civ4 experience. The first thing I need to do is know what to attack with. I already gave an option, which is with nukes + tanks (or more realistically, modern armor). But I'm not interested in having my own territory nuked or being involved in a nuclear war, so I was actually thinking of banning nukes via the UN (perhaps after I have built some ICBMs for myself, heh heh). I do want to take advantage of the plethora of options that include mechanized infantry, paratroopers, marines, and planes. The problem is, I'm not sure what I should build. How effective would planes be against Ragnar, who already has a considerable fleet (and navy) of his own. And what are the worthwhile planes and ships to build at this stage? Any advice would be appreciated, and I'll probably go back and look at some old games with modern warfare. If anyone has links, that would be helpful.

    And I still need to decide if I should bear the corporation costs or just switch to State Property.

    Other goals:
    1. Get two more non-scientists for the final Golden Age
    2. Keep research at 0%, for upgrading and rush buying.
    3. Get a battleship or missile cruiser to protect my seafood and offshore platforms
    4. Have mechanized infantry guard the coastal cities
    5. Rush-buy courthouses to alleviate extra costs with corporations
    6. Build about 5-6 airports in the highest-production cities

    I've attached the save if you want to take a look. This is as far as I've got, and I'm looking forward to fighting Ragnar for the right to win this game. :crazyeye:
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Shame it's BAT mod; I would liked to get a look...let's see the screenshots.

    Can you brive Cathy along you, but that's a highly risky decision as she might fall, but at least divert Ragnar's focus. His two vassals will make capitulation harder for sure...especially a unit spammer like Monty.

    Perhaps, at some point, prepare yourself a U.N. peace proposal to you if the war goes wrong. Sure thing, railroads make war within foe's lands much harder. Once simple marines and artillery killed my huge SoD of modern armors and modern artillery thanks to railroads.

    Of course, I have pitiful experience on modern wars (in fact, non existent), but with GW, maybe you can wait their SoD's within you lands and kill them while milking 100 % GG.
     
  4. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    :nuke: Nukes! :nuke:

    Edit: Marines for the coastal cities, Paratroops for the inland ones, and spies all over to show where his stacks are. Naturally, multiple nukes on all large stacks, and any nukes he might have. Kaboom.
     
  5. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    Great game DMOC! Is it possible to bribe Ragnar into a war with another AI? Even if the other AI doesn't stand a chance you could get ragnar's stack tied up in another front whilst you rampage through his core. The AI is usually very bad at telling when it should stop attacking others and defend it's own cities.
     
  6. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I would prefer to take the fight to Ragnar's land, so I'll probably not let him put stuff in my land. The GG bonuses are almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of production nowadays.

    Maybe I can get Catherine to join me if, on the first turn of the war, I can drop Ragnar's power low enough so that she's not afraid to join in ....

    I am thinking about marines for Ragnar's 3 coastal cities for the north (I think Jelling is coastal ... it's hard to tell from the screenshots). But they will need a lot of airforce and/or naval assistance, and then I'll have to unload defenders, probably city garrison promoted mechanized infantry. It's vital that I get those three cities on the FIRST turn of the war and then hold them. For the main stacks, I'm thinking modern armor, mobile artillery, and planes. And if I get those cities, I can destroy a considerable amount of Ragnar's navy as well.

    Unfortunately, Ragnar is not friendly with me. :sad: He is in WHEOOHRN now, but I'm worried that he'll finish any war he has before I can get a military that is about 1.5 times his power.
     
  7. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I agree with Gkey... nukes, you want to hit that Ragnar stack t0 of the war.

    If I remember right gunships have bonus against tanks, that's a problem

    You need to spam some Jets for defense

    I wouldn't probably bother with guarding coastal tiles...the AI usually outspams me with ships anyway

    One thing I thought about was if you can switch into slavery to slave nuked cities into your nukes for final mayhem ;-) and of course you already reduced number of AI's running emancipation ;-)

    State property is THE MILITARY civic.

    edit:
    another option that crossed my mind based on SS's was if you can outrun Ragnar to SS victory, but that feels a bit too gambitlike
     
  8. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Nukes is the easy way out :p

    Make a few Carriers -> load fighters.

    Stack border cities with bombers.

    1) do missions with fighters -> enemy fighters use their intercept missions
    2) do missions with bombers -> free to greatly reduce defenses
    3) clean up with tanks

    :)
     
  9. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I'm probably going to ban nukes, since I've already used them many times.

    I had a look at the game and, given that Ragnar is just spamming corporations in my cities, I honestly think I need to switch to State Property, to keep city maintenance costs at just 4 gpt for cities with courthouses. To compensate for the loss in production from Mining Inc., I'll need more workshops and watermills. I'm also considering switching to Vassalage since I'm paying 50g for units and that amount will go down to 0 with Vassalge. And maybe later, Police State. But I do need the rush-buy gold and I'm going to keep research at 0% the rest of the game, so I will have the gold necessary.

    So I'm probably going to do these things:

    1. Sit at 0% research and wait for the techs to flow in
    2. Build airports in the capital, and the cities either close to Ragnar, or far away (so units can be airlifted).
    3. Ban nukes via the UN, then pass the +1 trade routes per city clause
    4. Stop the tank production and build mechanized infantry (they're better)
    5. Set Beijing as the spy center, since it has Scotland Yard and all the necessary spy buildings
    6. Have the northern coastal cities build ships for the northern invasion
    7. Build planes in those cities that have airports, only jet fighters and stealth bombers, though, since there's no need for me to waste time on obsolete units
    8. Get a crapload of Mobile SAM infantry for all the gunships Ragnar has. I sent some units in his territory and the military advisor says he has 40 gunships.
    9. Build carriers with planes, so I suppose I don't need mobile artillery (?)
     
  10. Kikka

    Kikka Chieftain

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    The key is to take out his biggest stack on the first turn. Find it and follow it and plan it out. :scan:
    I find it useful to bring some subs for navy stack defence carrying guidedmissil to take down city defences with stacks in them. Enemy fighters dont touch them.
    The only snag is that the subs must go back to port to reload.
    The best is more carrier/fighters than you think you need and then a craptonn of good defenders to keep captured citys, or you must keep recaping the same city over and over.
    Good luck. ;)
     
  11. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Thanks. I played a few more turns until about 1850 AD. It's going to be incredibly difficult, and may take another week for me just to play those turns, let alone report. ;)

    In any case, I may replay the endgame and see how easier (or riskier) this is with nukes.
     
  12. bestbrian

    bestbrian Just this guy, ya know?

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    Big war turns can take FOREVER normally, even more so if you have to keep track of things for a write up.

    If you're not totally sick of looking at the map by the time your done, replaying it with a nuclear option would be very cool.

    Go0d luck. :goodjob:
     
  13. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 10: 1816 AD to 1860 AD [23 Turns] - DMOC is Confused

    I'm going to do some searching on CivFanatics after this round, since there's a game mechanic that I'm confused about. ;)

    The plan for this round was to build up my army to conquer Ragnar. Sounds simple, but ... yeah, it's kind of hard to do that in reality. :crazyeye: Furthermore, I decided that I wasn't going to build the Manhattan Project. In fact, during the next UN election, I proposed to ban nuclear weapons. Ragnar voted against it, but there were still enough votes to pass, so there will be no nuclear warfare. I prefer to keep things more civil here, and to demonstrate the power of non-nuclear warfare methods.

    Anyway, during these 23 turns of the round, my army size virtually doubled, and more is coming since I did plenty of queueing-units-1-turn-to-completion in my cities, then switching them to produce other units to save on maintenance costs. What's great about the modern era is that there are so many options -- gunships, jet fighters, bombers (I never did get Stealth for stealth bombers), modern armor, mechanized infantry, paratroopers, mobile artillery, mobile SAMs, marines, spies, transports, missile cruisers, and others.

    But in order for my empire to be in full-fledged military mode, I had to do two civics changes. I switched to Vassalage and State Property. Vassalage provided me with about 55 extra free unit support, and State Property got rid of the horrid corporation maintenance costs, which had dramatically increased due to Ragnar spreading Sid's Sushi and other corporations in my empire. I kept Universal Suffrage since I was having research at 0% (the Internet would give me the rest of my techs) and knew I would get a new stash of gold every turn for rush buying. In fact, these civics changes increased my gold per turn from 1097 to 1300.



    In preparation for an air war against Ragnar, I built some forts nearby so I could house more airplanes.



    Another issue with going at war with Ragnar is that Gilgamesh and Catherine were making solid progress on their spaceships. To delay that, I decided to create some strife among the two leaders. This is why it's great to have a Friendly Catherine.



    With my new civics, it was time for workers to start bulldozing some farms in place of workshops that, due to State property, get +1 food, so I can afford a few extra workshops. My MFG did take a hit from switching to State Property, so I have to do whatever I can to regain the lost production.



    Ragnar continues to build up a scary stack of doom.



    I'm really liking this filler city. What's great about the modern era is that you can found cities in seemingly marginal spots and quickly have them be an important part of your empire. In this case, Jayendranagari acts as another naval center.



    Meanwhile, Hippo finished Mount Rushmore. So with jails and Police state, my cities will suffer from no war unhappiness. (Provided they have jails, of course.) I honestly can't remember the last time I built this national wonder, since I rarely fight modern wars.



    As expected, on turn 285, 1830 AD, Ragnar declares war on the Willem-Mehmed master-vassal pair. Ragnar, naturally, wasted no time capturing cities:



    And in just another 5 more turns after that turn ... :eek:



    Well, if there's one silver lining I can take out of this, it's that Ragnar should take out one of Willem's 3 top cultural cities. Willem is about 60 turns away from a cultural victory, and it would be really helpful if Ragnar could capture one of those 3 cities.



    Well, that didn't work out so well. :wallbash: Willem's top 3 culture cities are Amsterdam, Utrecht, and The Hague. And Ragnar and his vassals even had stacks outside those cities!

    Ragnar asks me to stop trading with his new vassal. Sure, whatever you say. I even get a +1 in diplomancy for acquiescing to his demand.



    Just to give it a shot, even though the only Friendly leader was Catherine (who's my rival ...) I tried for a diplomatic victory. I wasn't expecting to win, since I thought that Ragnar and at least one of his vassals (Cyrus) would have to be Friendly to me to vote for me.



    But to my surprise ...



    So ... we won. :lol: And I'll be looking at CivFanatics for detailed information on the requirements for other leaders to vote you to a win. I thought it was just "Friendly" then more +'s to act as tiebreakers, and randomized if it was a tie.

    I've attached my autosave for the 1860 AD diplomatic win. And I'll do some end-game screenshots later, plus my plan to replay the save.

    [To be continued in next post]
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Glad to see there were no need to engage in this possibly infernal war with monster Ragnar.

    Sadly, I can't open the save...and I don't remember who built the U.N.
    Cathy?
    If so, then the second candidate is you, having the highest population. Thus Ragnar's vassals are no longer needed to exclusively vote for him. Same for Ragnar who likes you more than Cathy.

    Then, good for you, without any vassals of any form, you kept clean your diplo relationships...

    At last, the confusing factor, as I understand your confusion, is PLEASED leaders are voting you over the opponent.
    Well, if the said U.N. opponent is not liked by your voter (CAUTIOUS or below), then possessing +10 modifiers (including the hidden ones) is all needed to get a voter.
    Friendly attitude is not the necessary condition, but assures you to get the votes in a easier manner instead the equally liked U.N. opponent. Same mechanisms on RL DV (religious leader diplo victory).


    EDIT: I forgot to mention ties don't exist. AI always get the vote over the player. That is the usual human-hate law of AI's.
     
  15. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    [Continued from previous post]


    I was catching up somewhat in power. Now that Ragnar's war is over, I think he'll be mostly building research or wealth in his cities since they probably have every building in the game. And remember, I've queued up units 1-turn to completion in many cities, and I've got over 5,000 gold for upgrading units.




    I still maintain a slight production advantage.



    30:30 of playtime. The forge was the most common building I built. I assume this doesn't include captured buildings, since I think I have a granary in all 37 cities.



    Here were the exact diplomacy standings. I suppose bribing Cyrus to switch back into his favorite civic of Vassalage was really enough to push him over the edge. Cyrus is +9 and Ragnar is +8. But both will have a hidden -1 to me for having a large empire. I assume that Ragnar's "first impression is a lasting one" is his inherent -2 to any human player, and Cyrus must have a -0 for that. So there must be some other hidden + for Ragnar. I assume it must be item 9 shown here so Ragnar gives me a hidden +1 for both of us being in the top half of the scoreboard.




    So now what? I could move on to DMOC's 5th deity game (Shaka), but I would really like to exhibit some modern warfare. Ragnar, while he still doesn't have as much power as Boudica had at the end of my Willem game, will be an incredibly challenging opponent. I'll probably continue from the 1858 save and not run a UN election. I suppose there's no difference between continuing from a save I've already won and a save that no winner has declared, but it seems right for me to continue a save I haven't won yet. (AI is programmed to continue aiming to victory even after someone wins right?) I'll also try to ensure that Catherine or Gilgamesh don't win via space and Willem doesn't win via culture.

    This will take a while for me to write up, so don't be surprised if there's another delay. ;)
     
  16. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Can I see your diplo tables?
    Does BAT make hidden modifiers visible?
     
  17. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Catherine built the UN, so it was me vs. her.

    My confusion was that pleased leaders were voting for me at all. I thought the requirement was a flat you-have-to-be-friendly to vote for a candidate for the diplomatic victories. And I thought a net +10 including hidden modifiers automatically makes other leaders friendly with me (unless I have vassals they hate, but I have no vassals).

    Looks like I need to do research on civ diplomacy. :crazyeye: I did take several months off, after all ....

    Also, I'll update the post above later. I was going to do it earlier, but CivFanatics was down.

    I'll get more screenshots up there later (maybe in 10-15 hours). BAT makes some modifiers visible, but I don't think it shows all.
     
  18. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    I don't know the exact reasons why this doesn't bring to friendly civs right away with +10, but PLEASED nations at +10 will vote for you if the one is CAUTIOUS with the U.N. opponent. Interestingly, the BUFFY/BUG doen't show them pre-election, but once the results are available, they vote for you.

    Sometimes, you see leaders friendly at +9, but quite many hidden modifiers are in play.
    Score relationships for some leaders(dominant/dominee), mutual work as weaker nations to mention few.

    FU FU FU FU... :mad:
     
  19. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    UN and AP only require +8 "real" diplo relations. +10 is for Friendly

    BUFFY doesn't show it on the vote tab because it can't tell you the hidden mods of the AI.

    Anyway, good show. Now that you won, you can practice a modern war without fear of losing :p
     
  20. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Thanks, I swapped the values without even thinking... :sad:
     

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