Do Agnostics exist?

[GinandTonic]

... by religious/agnostic I mean a person who worships or tries to interact with a supernatural being.

Yes, lots of people are. All those who dont know if their god really exists, but pray/ observe on the off chance.

 

[trader/warrior]

Yes, lots of people are. All those who dont know if their god really exists, but pray/ observe on the off chance.

uh, that is what I meant. Is it possible to be agnostic without either being atheist or an uncertain worshipper?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I don't believe that it is possible to come to a certainty of the existance of God through human means, so in that sense I am an agnostic (I think that is what they meant by "knowledge").

 

[PeteAtoms]

uh, that is what I meant. Is it possible to be agnostic without either being atheist or an uncertain worshipper?

That would be an agnostic theist, right?
Just because you're a theist, doesn't make you a worshiper or a member of some church or organized religion.

 

[GinandTonic]

uh, that is what I meant. Is it possible to be agnostic without either being atheist or an uncertain worshipper?

At least as regards the major branches of the monotheist religions no. To be an agnostic would require at least to be an uncertain worshipper.

Possible to be fully a Quaker or some of the protestant flavours, but to be fully paid-up orthodox or catholic it would be difficult to be uncertain for a significant period of time.

 

[Bill3000]

I'm agnostic on this matter.

 

[trader/warrior]

That would be an agnostic theist, right?
Just because you're a theist, doesn't make you a worshiper.

Yes but also for example a christian who believes it is very likely that the christian god is real, but will not say that he knows for sure. He is not absolutely sure that god exists but he subscribes to the christian religion and prays to god and engages in rituals. He might even doubt other religions more than he doubts that there might be no god.

 

[warpus]

uh, that is what I meant. Is it possible to be agnostic without either being atheist or an uncertain worshipper?

You'd have to believe that God exists not to be atheist.

Are there agnostics who believe that God exists?

 

[mitsho]

How are people called that don't really care about religion?

I must think that this would be the largest group ;-)

 

[PeteAtoms]

How are people called that don't really care about religion?

I must think that this would be the largest group ;-)

Look in my sig (links to Wikipedia)
Apatheist.

 

[Navarre]

@Navarre, you are wrong in your definition of atheist.

Differing from your interpretation of the word doesn't mean being wrong. There is no right or wrong, there are different definitions, coming from how you define disbelief: the fact of not believing, or the active refusal of a statement.

------

Agnosticism means that you refuse to believe that there is a revealed truth, that some saints were spiritually enlightened by a surnatural source (the original gnosis). It doesn't have anything to do with the existence or inexistence of God per se, it's the simple statement that nothing proves that prophets were inspired by God, that these words are indeed God's one, and prove by their mere existence the existence of God.

We don't deny the existence of God: we deny that the claims that have been made prove his existence.

Therefore, God's existence, for the agnostic, stays open to speculation: nothing has yet proven that God exists or not. The agnostic may have a personal conviction on the matter, in a sense or another, but he knows that he doesn't know and accepts it. So yes, you can find theists agnostics: every believer out there not believing in a particular book but still believing there must be a God.


To read: Agnosticism on Wikipedia, for those needing a more complete/objective source than me, humble agnostic.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the differences between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. As such, the term agnostic does not necessarily signal a particular view about religion or a deity, as some agnostics also identify as theists or atheists.

 

[trader/warrior]

How are people called that don't really care about religion?

I must think that this would be the largest group ;-)

Can you explain to me how they are not atheists?

 

[mitsho]

Look in my sig (links to Wikipedia)
Apatheist.

Thanks, I would have said Ignosticist out of my memory, but I wanted to hear someone else say (write) it.

Can you explain to me how they are not atheists?

If religion doesn't play any role in your life, you're not atheist. Atheism is a statement against one or many gods or other sort of belief systems. When you however don't give a "something" about religion, as long as the church bells don't wake you up, you're not an atheist. You're only an agnostic (or atheist) if you thought seriously on the topic. I from my point of view can say that I didn't. "Beliefs" need to have some sort of inner coherence, coherence however needs time, I do not want to spend time to form a personal point of view on that so diverse and so complicated topic. As long as it doesn't interfere with my life, (and it doesn't as long as I don't have to pay [church] taxes) they can do what they want, I occupy myself with the things that interest me personally. That's why I also didn't read the thread, after the op, I went straight to post my question.

 

[warpus]

Differing from your interpretation of the word doesn't mean being wrong. There is no right or wrong, there are different definitions, coming from how you define disbelief: the fact of not believing, or the active refusal of a statement.

It's not an interpretation of the word, it's the interpretation of the accepted definition:

Atheist: Does not believe that God exists

This is at odds with your interpretation, which only includes strong atheists.

 

[trader/warrior]

Thanks, I would have said Ignosticist out of my memory, but I wanted to hear someone else say (write) it.



If religion doesn't play any role in your life, you're not atheist. Atheism is a statement against one or many gods or other sort of belief systems. When you however don't give a "something" about religion, as long as the church bells don't wake you up, you're not an atheist. You're only an agnostic (or atheist) if you thought seriously on the topic. I from my point of view can say that I didn't. "Beliefs" need to have some sort of inner coherence, coherence however needs time, I do not want to spend time to form a personal point of view on that so diverse and so complicated topic. As long as it doesn't interfere with my life, (and it doesn't as long as I don't have to pay [church] taxes) they can do what they want, I occupy myself with the things that interest me personally. That's why I also didn't read the thread, after the op, I went straight to post my question.

This might be kind of a cheap shot, but large portions of the religious claim that there awaits eternal pain and suffering for nonbelievers or unrepentant sinners. You really have not even considered this idea and found it wrong or unlikely? And if it were true as they claim would it not interfere with your life? How did you come to the conclusion that heaven, hell, god, allah or reincarnation does not effect you at all when most of the world claim that some of them totally do? You are an atheist under my definition.

 

[onedreamer]

I had the following exchange with a friend of mine today, and I have faced the same dilemma several times before.

Him: I am an agnostic.
Me: Really? Wich god do you believe in?
Him: None, of course.
Me: Oh, so you are an Atheist.

I then went on to explain to him that Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive and in fact most self described atheists are both to a certain degree.

Is there any point at all in describing yourself as Agnostic?

I don't think there has been any thread on this as far as I can remember, but if it's been discussed to death here before I will happily let this thread die.

I am agnostic.
If you know what is agnosticism, why did you even ask that question ?

I think most atheists are actually agnostics, like you said, there is overlap.
Atheists don't believe in the existence of god, and agnostics make no claim on knowing the truth of whether god exists one way or the other.

Do you believe in god? No.
Do you know god doesn't exist? No.

The above would describe an agnostic/atheist.

No. An agnostic would not answer no to the first question, but "I don't know".
You can be a so called agnostic atheist, but you are still atheist, and not agnostic.

 

[Navarre]

It's not an interpretation of the word, it's the interpretation of the accepted definition:

Atheist: Does not believe that God exists

This is at odds with your interpretation, which only includes strong atheists.

This is not the accepted definition, this is only the particular definition you accept.

Writers disagree how best to define and classify atheism, contesting what supernatural entities it applies to, whether it is an assertion in its own right or merely the absence of one, and whether it requires a conscious, explicit rejection. A variety of categories have been proposed to try to distinguish the different forms of atheism.

Wikipedia/Atheism#Definitions_and_distinctions

While strong/weak atheism comes from Georges H. Smith's work on implicit/explicit atheism, others philosophers like Nagel reject, as I do, the definition of atheism being merely "absence of theism", and acknowledge only explicit atheism as true atheism.

Philosophy is never a question of right or wrong (unless of course you're debating on the questions of right and wrong in a philosophical sense), it's about what lies behind the words you use and how you understand them.

This might be kind of a cheap shot, but large portions of the religious claim that there awaits eternal pain and suffering for nonbelievers or unrepentant sinners. You really have not even considered this idea and found it wrong or unlikely? And if it were true as they claim would it not interfere with your life? How did you come to the conclusion that heaven, hell, god, allah or reincarnation does not effect you at all when most of the world claim that some of them totally do? You are an atheist under my definition.

In my particular case, I've considered the idea of eternal damnation for not believing in a God and found it highly unlikely, a mere invention of people who did have interest in their particular dogma being accepted by the most people possible. Heaven and hell are probably just the spiritual version of the carrott and the stick.

But if it's true, well, I'll be damned. I accept it, since I'll not worship a God using that kind of methods anyway. If God can't accept that I use my brain and condemns me to eternal suffering for not accepting blindly something that I have not proof of, he can go to hell himself.

As for "most of the world", they just believe something they've been told. Show me someone who've been there, to Heaven and to Hell, someone who speaks from experience, and I may reconsider my belief on that point.

 

[PeteAtoms]

No. An agnostic would not answer no to the first question, but "I don't know".
You can be a so called agnostic atheist, but you are still atheist, and not agnostic.

No.
I wasn't describing an "agnostic" with that post. I was describing an "agnostic atheist," which is evident when you read the last line.

Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist.

Source: Agnostic atheism

EDIT: Maybe my putting "agnostic/atheist" with a slash between caused the confusion. My bad if that's the case.

 

[onedreamer]

Agnosticism means that you refuse to believe that there is a revealed truth, that some saints were spiritually enlightened by a surnatural source (the original gnosis). It doesn't have anything to do with the existence or inexistence of God per se, it's the simple statement that nothing proves that prophets were inspired by God, that these words are indeed God's one, and prove by their mere existence the existence of God.

We don't deny the existence of God: we deny that the claims that have been made prove his existence.

This definition is extremely borderline. You refer to religion as if there is only the Christian religion out there. Get rid of saints and prophets and you have the real definition

Therefore, God's existence, for the agnostic, stays open to speculation: nothing has yet proven that God exists or not.

 

[onedreamer]

No.
I wasn't describing an agnostic with that post. I was describing an agnostic atheist, which is evident when you read the last line.

You didn't express it correctly then. You said "agnostic/atheist". This notation means both and.

PS: you even said most atheist are actually agnostic. But you still described atheists, not agnostics.