Do tell the history behind the Holy Land

Originally posted by Ozz


At least someone will have a unbiased account. You keep
trying to put a white hat on the Israeli cause. Israeli isn't
innocent, ANY country that practices torture as a state
policy is a pariah. Frankly Israeli is an invader to the Arabs. Whatever the British, the UN or anyone else says.

It's funny you mentioned 'Mine Kampf', your country seems
to copying alot of the most odious traits of the nazi regime
(torture, secret police, assassins, Living space in the east)

Good luck with your propaganda campaign, if you can find
anyone who agrees with you. Frankly I was undecided about
the cause until you enlightened me.

:confused:
Secret Police :confused:
Assassins :confused:
Living space in the east :confused:

You shoot blanks Ozz without explaining one bit of your claims.
You claim me and g-mans reviews are biased - prove it.

You keep saying that Israel is not innocent - maybe thats correct.
You keep saying that I put a white hat on Israels causes - well prove that I am wrong.

The only thing you do is shoot blank - fill me with accusations you have no base for.
 
Yes, I'm putting a white hat in the Israeli cause. And it's all true. Yoy can't give me even one fact against it so why the hell should I believe you?

No, Israel isn't taking ideas from any racist propoganda. Israel is harsh on those who wish to destroy it. Once someone dedicates his life to killing innocent people he is no longer considered by me as having any rights. When someone is working every day in order to kill people he must be stopped at any possible way. BTW, Israel doesn't have a secret police (unless it's so secret even Israelis don't know about it and only you do).

edit: Something that can be usefull for the original purpose of the thread:

 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe


:confused:
Secret Police :confused:
Assassins :confused:
Living space in the east :confused:

You shoot blanks Ozz without explaining one bit of your claims.
You claim me and g-mans reviews are biased - prove it.

You keep saying that Israel is not innocent - maybe thats correct.
You keep saying that I put a white hat on Israels causes - well prove that I am wrong.

The only thing you do is shoot blank - fill me with accusations you have no base for.

You got to have clean hands to wear a white hat. You got blood
on yours.

Secret Police Mossad , I believe
Assassins Mossad
Living Space in the east (New Jewish settlements)

I don't shoot blanks, Blanks don't hurt.

Originally posted by Adebisi

Must hurt when you get a does of truth?

IceBlaZe

And this is the kettle calling the pot black

EDIT:
I found where this review was taken from:
http://www.angelfire.com/al2/lux/mainpag.html

Homepage of a nice arab guy, who lives in ... palestine???
No way!

My Response if i has closed minded.

I found these posts posts were coming form

Computer of a nice Jewish guy, who lives in ... palestine???
No way!
 
Originally posted by Ozz
You got to have clean hands to wear a white hat. You got blood
on yours.

Secret Police Mossad , I believe
Assassins Mossad
Living Space in the east (New Jewish settlements)

When it's the blood of killers I prefer it on my hands then in their body, supporting it so they would kill more people. If in order to wear a white hat you need to have clean hands then Israel's hat will not be white but it'll be whiter then most if not all countries.

The Mossad isn't a secret police and can't be one as it doesn't work inside Israel but only in foreign countries.
It kills only people that have been prooven to be killers that are planing more attacks.

Israel didn't take over the west bank in order to get living space but in order to defend itself. Just look at the map I posted and you can see why they it was so important.
 
Originally posted by Ozz


You got to have clean hands to wear a white hat. You got blood
on yours.

> No war is clean of blood, but that doesn't mean both sides are always guilty of a war


Secret Police Mossad , I believe

> What? That's the Israeli Intelligence Agency, like the CIA or the MI6.

Assassins Mossad
> They eliminate hostile terrorist targets, they do not assasin innocent citizens.

Living Space in the east (New Jewish settlements)
> Thats a preposterous claim. You can also say that london and tel-aviv is living space.

I don't shoot blanks, Blanks don't hurt.
> Shooting blanks just like that stain people for no reason and annoy ;)

Originally posted by Adebisi

Must hurt when you get a does of truth?

IceBlaZe

And this is the kettle calling the pot black

EDIT:
I found where this review was taken from:
http://www.angelfire.com/al2/lux/mainpag.html

Homepage of a nice arab guy, who lives in ... palestine???
No way!

My Response if i has closed minded.

I found these posts posts were coming form

Computer of a nice Jewish guy, who lives in ... palestine???
No way!

>Very amusing, but if you want to be practical look at the education the palestiniens get and the education Israelies like me get. Not to say I live in a democratical country. And yes, that does have an effect on the opinion of a citizen of a country.
Besides, even if you discard the fact that that review came from a palestinien, it is still completely false.
As you saw, G-Man completely disproved every paragraph of that review and no one here yet managed to disprove his disprovements.
You made a fool out of your self because you said that a completely biased (and proven biased) review is not biased and is well written.
If you can back yourself with proof, please do. Untill then, don't shoot blanks.
 
but if you want to be practical look at the education the palestiniens get and the education Israelies like me get. Not to say I live in a democratical country. And yes, that does have an effect on the opinion of a citizen of a country.

Perhaps your textbooks are biased, Ice Blaze, G-man you
put up the same arguments, over and over. Facts that it
seems are not accepted outside of Israel.

As you saw, G-Man completely disproved every paragraph of that review and no one here yet managed to disprove his disprovements.

I never accepted G-mans theories as facts. I knew you and
he wouldn't accept mine, so i simply used your own words
and admissions to prove my points.

You made a fool out of your self because you said that a completely biased (and proven biased) review is not biased and is well written.

I still stand by what i said there, and if I am a fool it is because
i take the time to TRY to open the eyes of the closed minded.
Pretty much a lost cause here, but I do try.

Anyways the main point of the post has been furfilled. Thanks
to Adebisi, the poster actually got a full and unbiased account.
 
Again you shoot blanks, stand by your words with no proof whatsoever.

Perhaps your textbooks are biased, Ice Blaze, G-man you
put up the same arguments, over and over. Facts that it
seems are not accepted outside of Israel.

Prove it.

I never accepted G-mans theories as facts. I knew you and
he wouldn't accept mine, so i simply used your own words
and admissions to prove my points.

But they are facts :lol:
And no matter how much you will keep saying they aren't, they are, untill you prove otherwise.

I still stand by what i said there, and if I am a fool it is because
i take the time to TRY to open the eyes of the closed minded.
Pretty much a lost cause here, but I do try.

Fool is one who keeps talking with nothing to back up his points :rolleyes:

Anyways the main point of the post has been furfilled. Thanks
to Adebisi, the poster actually got a full and unbiased account.

You keep saying it is unbiased but it is extremely biased and filled with false details that shed the jews in a bad light.
Your posts are pointless and useless because you don't even try to prove them.
Your just like a little kid saying 'I am right because I am right and I stand by my words that I am right!'.
I hope you wont be in the jury in my trial, or worse, be the lawyer itself :rolleyes: :lol:
 
More insults, good. Must hurt when you get a dose of truth?

Frankly I really don't think I could ever sway you from your Israeli school book facts.

I hope you noticed the only poster who supported your "Facts"
is G-man. I don't think that point will be lost on anyone reviewing
this.

Here are some of my favourites

Assassins Mossad
> They eliminate hostile terrorist targets, they do not assasin innocent citizens.

So they ARE assassins

You keep saying that Israel is not innocent - maybe thats correct.
You keep saying that I put a white hat on Israels causes - well prove that I am wrong.

I think you just did.

The bombing of the king david hotel by right-wing jewish terrorists is minor and unmentionable in G-Man's size of sum up, just like he didn't mention every single event of the arabs attacking Israel or alikes.

Body Count not high enough to mention?
So Jews do practice Terroristism.

Your own Words, Your own admissions, Your own Facts.

I seem to be the last poster to take the time to reply to
you. I think the others have given it up as a lost cause.

If anyone outside of Israeli posts (in the next 24 hours)
i will reply to G-mans Version and supply sources. Otherwise
Aidos, I got better things to do.
 
Originally posted by Ozz
More insults, good. Must hurt when you get a dose of truth?
>> This has nothing to do with insults, just comparisons.

Frankly I really don't think I could ever sway you from your Israeli school book facts.
>> It's not Israeli school books, its every accurate history book there is. You can ask AoA the moderator here, he has a masters degree in history if I'm not wrong.

I hope you noticed the only poster who supported your "Facts"
is G-man. I don't think that point will be lost on anyone reviewing
this.
>> The only thing I see here is that the only one who is against our facts is you. Even adebisi gave up and admitted the review was full of mistakes.

Here are some of my favourites

Assassins Mossad
> They eliminate hostile terrorist targets, they do not assasin innocent citizens.

So they ARE assassins
>> No, they are protectors. With that claim, every country has assassins.

You keep saying that Israel is not innocent - maybe thats correct.
You keep saying that I put a white hat on Israels causes - well prove that I am wrong.

I think you just did.
>> Did I?

The bombing of the king david hotel by right-wing jewish terrorists is minor and unmentionable in G-Man's size of sum up, just like he didn't mention every single event of the arabs attacking Israel or alikes.

Body Count not high enough to mention?
So Jews do practice Terroristism.
>> Israel is a jewish country. Not every jew represents Israel. The Israeli government never supported terrorism, and we convicted every jewish terrorist to the british.

Your own Words, Your own admissions, Your own Facts.
>> I dont see any admission here. You blame Israel for jewish terrorists who acted before Israel existed. We were against these terrorists. We arrested them immediately and handed all of them to britain, even the ones no one had proof against.

I seem to be the last poster to take the time to reply to
you. I think the others have given it up as a lost cause.
>> You seem to like to bend reality to your favour. The same thing can be said because no one holds facts against our claims, can it?

If anyone outside of Israeli posts (in the next 24 hours)
i will reply to G-mans Version and supply sources. Otherwise
Aidos, I got better things to do.
>> You know that no one will, and you know you have no true sources. Besides, I couldn't care less. It's your false claims that started this whole arguement.
If you go now I will know it's another anti-Israeli who has nothing to back his claims. Adios :p :D
 
Originally posted by Adebisi
Now onto G-Man's nit picking.

Still waiting for someone to prove G-Man wrong :rolleyes:

So many claims and accusations, yet nothing to back them up with.
 
TO everyone who has made it to page three of this crap, read the following. I know it's a bit long but it's the most truth you're likely to get all week. I promise.

Exerpted from "Understanding Middle East Events and History I:
Talking Points versus Understanding":

http://www.mideastweb.org/UnderstandingMiddleEast.htm

...You may get reinforcement for your ideas from such summaries. You may get “talking points” that will allow you to become part of the great parade of demonstrations and counter-demonstrations that substitute for thinking and dialog in our region. In this way, you can impress your friends and dialog partners with pseudo-facts or one line quotes from Gandhi or Herzl or Haj Amin El Husseini or Osama Bin Laden and win arguments: “The Jews became a nation in 1312 BC - there is no such thing as a Palestinian People” or “Jabotinsky said that we have to broom all the Arabs out of Palestine.” It may impress people, but it is probably not a way to find the truth. It is not a way to solve the problem. It is a way to become part of the problem, a soldier in the armies of hate and dysinformation.

If you are new to the Middle East and want to find out “who is right?” and what to do about it in three easy lessons, you will be either disappointed or misled. To get a fair idea, you will need to study the original sources, not summaries prepared by the ZOA or the Arab League or “experts” and understand their meaning in the context in which they were produced. The way to knowledge and understanding is a long and arduous process, and that “understanding” must keep changing as events unfold, and as we learn more. That is why so much of the materials at MidEastWeb are not concise summaries or political proclamations but resources: news from different sources, maps, bibliography and historical documents.

Read the sources with care and skepticism. Be wary of catchwords such as “terrorist,” ‘Apartheid regime,” “Fascist,” and “ethnic cleansing.” In their original meaning they are perfectly good words. For example, a member of the German National Socialist Workers (Nazi) party, or a follower of Benito Mussolini, was a self-declared fascist. Some Zionist dissident radicals expressed sympathy with Fascism, and some Palestinian leaders such as the Mufti Haj Amin El-Husseini, were Nazi sympathizers and collaborators. However, the mainstream Zionist movement and the current leaders of Israel, as well as present-day Palestinian leaders, do not advocate fascism. When they are misapplied in a deliberate way, the purpose of these terms is not to inform you but to confuse the issues and substitute emotion for reason. Be especially wary of quotes taken out of context.

If any one person, viewpoint or source had the “straight story” about the Middle East, it would an easy matter to solve all our problems. It is easy to read a biased summary of “talking points” regarding any issue and march off on a crusade, disseminating more biased opinion and rallying followers to the attack. We have far too much of that in the Middle East. If you read a “fact,” consider the source. If you hear a news story, check that that it is true. Getting the facts straight is the beginning of knowledge. Making sure that everyone gets the same facts - all of them - is the beginning of dialog and understanding.

italics mine
--GMB
 
Ah, what the heck--I wasn't going to post part II, but here it is. Same source:

Understanding Middle East Events and History II:
What's in a Word?

The Israel-Palestinian Conflict and the World of Words

The area of Israel and Palestine is not rich in resources. We have our famous conflict. It is our conflict, and we are happy to export it. It is our second greatest export.

What is our greatest export? It is not oil, as there is no petroleum here to export. But we have words, and have had words since words first created civilization in the middle east. The middle east is famous for exporting words. The Old Testament, the New Testament, the propaganda of two sides in the conflict, and fittingly enough, software, are our greatest exports in all history. For the Bible and the propaganda are programs for humans, and people and history are "programmed" by them, as well as by that other great program for the human computer, the Qur'an.

The Word told Abraham to go to Canaan, and the Word told the Hebrews that Canaan is theirs. The words were written down in a book, and the book was the Old Testament and it became holy to the Jews, who built a kingdom in Jerusalem.

Then there were more Words, and the Words said that Muhamed is the prophet of Allah, and that Mohamed had made Jerusalem holy to Islam. The Christians received words too. Bishop Eusebius of Caesaria wrote that the Jews were cursed and could not rebuild Jerusalem. It was against the will of God.

History was written like a television series from the old days. "Unfortunate minorities" got bad parts - cleaning people, servants, Christ killers and money lenders. The Jews were written out of the coming episodes entirely. "A world without Jews," wrote Marx. Every culture and people would have its own home - self determination, but the Jews were to be written out of modern history. They didn't play well. "A moribund civilization," wrote Arnold Toynbee.

The Jews for their part, kept repeating the words "Next Year in Jerusalem" each year, and asking God to return them to their home each day. The words became a program for action. Theodore Herzl wrote a book, a nineteenth century utopia in the style of nineteenth century utopias, impossible places. The book was called The Jewish State. A very little book, a pamphlet, by a powerless man. Herzl organized a congress in Basle. More words, and a tiny resolution. He wrote in his diary in 1897, "...at Basle I founded the Jewish State... if not in 5 years then in 50..." The Zionists tended to write the Arabs out of the action. They didn't fit, didn't play well, and spoiled the plot.

The words of the powerless man became flesh. Here is one way of telling about it:

Europeans came to colonize Palestine in the 19th century.

Here is another way:

Jews returned to the Land of Israel after 2,000 years.

Which one is true? It is the same fact, but it leads to different conclusions about "why," and it leads to a different way of programming people.

Arthur Balfour wrote a small letter, the Balfour Declaration, in 1917. Palestine became a homeland for the Jews. Thirty years later, in 1947, the UN wrote another document, General Assembly Resolution 181, partitioning Palestine, and Herzl's words came true.

Words and symbols are taken seriously here. A right-wing Zionist tract explains the reason that justifies the bloodshed: "Jews pray facing Jerusalem, Muslims pray with their backs to Jerusalem." It is not written in jest. Gulliver, in all his travels in Swiftian satire, never found a more exotic reason for killing people.

Never mind what the fact is, it depends what it is called. Is it "legitimate?" If the Palestinian house is "illegal," then you can demolish it. If the settlement is "illegal" then you can blow up the children who live in it.

A man loses his brother to the enemy. He detonates an explosive charge in a crowded bus stop in Jerusalem, killing himself and a dozen others. Is he a "terrorist?" a "militant?," a "freedom fighter?" or a martyr. Is the suicide attack "terror" or "resistance?" If the suicide attack is in Manhattan, is it also "resistance?" A tank destroys a house with children in it, because the house also includes people set to explode themselves in a suicide attack. Is it "conducting a defensive operation" or a "war crime?" Is a leader a "partner for peace" or a "terrorist?" If we add "war criminal" to his name and repeat it consistently, does it change the facts? Are the Zionists or the Palestinians just regular folks, or are they the same as the Nazis? Does it change the facts of what people did in history? Perhaps not, but it changes the actions we will take; it changes what people will do in the history they are making now.

The words are also used to redraw history. Nowhere else is it more true that the pen is mightier than the sword. Nowhere is "creative writing" more "creative." Partisans, intent on stirring up hate, crank out fraudulent interviews with Ariel Sharon, in which he states that he wants his soldiers to rape Palestinian girls and kill more Palestinians. A bit of satire by an Israeli writer is turned into a fact. The excuse given for the lie is, "There is no doubt, that what has been expressed in the interview is the kind of dangerous thinking shared by Sharon and showing through in his policies." Reality is shaped by art. First the reality is reinvented, then it is acted upon. We are acting out a trashy historical novel, a comic book version of reality.

What is not told, is as important as what is told. The pen of the Jewish extremist makes the massacre of Deir Yassin disappear - over a hundred dead people are banished to nowhere. The pen of the Palestinian partisan erases the siege of Jerusalem and the Arab invasion of 1948. A writer in the Egyptian newspaper, Al-Ahram, waves his magic pen and the Holocaust disappears. None of it happened. The Jewish extremist erases the Palestinian refugees. Reality is rearranged for convenience and the convenience and needs of our ever-present defense mechanisms.

Time and again, words create reality and program actions. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic forgery of the Czarist secret police, is enshrined in the charter of the Hamas, and propels Muslim extremists to their death. Osama Bin Laden wrote his Fatwas against America, and the words toppled mighty buildings. The Mufti of Jerusalem said "The Jews are destroying the holy Mosque of Al Aqsa" and the riots of 1929 began. The same rumor started bloodier riots in 1997, and again in September 2000 it created the "Martyrs of Al-Aqsa."

At this moment, as is usual in our area, a battle is raging. The words are fighting alongside the tanks and the bombs. Partisans are busy rewriting history. Suicide bombers are being written out by one side, civilian casualties are being written out by the other. They do not play well. They will not sell. Words are changing history, and people are being programmed to act on the words, never mind what happened. So the words help to create reality.

The words are not meant to be aesthetic. They are tired, grating, writing. The same adjectives and pejorative words appear a dozen times in a hundred words. For some reason, the hacks cannot write "Arafat" without writing "terrorist" and they cannot write "Ariel Sharon" in less than four words: "War Criminal Ariel Sharon." The words are meant to program violence in human computers. Computer programs do not make good reading. They are bad literature. It is worse reality. The words programmed all these impossible things we see before us, good and bad. Can we use the words to "program" Israel and Palestine for peace?

--GMB
 
let uss close this thread gmb said everything
this thread is again such a anti palistine-thread
this is getting of topic
 
I am only going through this exerise in fulitity because
goodbye_mr_bond & philippe posted.


If anyone outside of Israeli posts (in the next 24 hours)
i will reply to G-mans Version and supply sources. Otherwise
Aidos, I got better things to do.


Adebisi - I don't think there's one paragraph you posted that got all the facts right.

I think it was quite accurate

>>> The jews were very quiet untill the beggining of the century. Some of the Roman rules got along very well but some, especially Pontius Pilate, thought the jews weren't as good as Romans and treated them so by forcing them to choose between breaking the laws of their religion and death. The governers that treated jews as equals didn't have any riots.

++++ No they were disputing with the Hellenic Population
(Greeks), before the coming of Rome. Religious & political
hostiliites amoungest themselves allowed Rome to become
arbiter, then Rome assumed dictatorship.

>>> No. Bar Kokva, who some called the king of the jews (although he didn't) started a rebelioun in 126 AD. Pontius Pilate started riots against jews in Israel. He made him army of non jews Israelis (who were a minority) and so gave them control over the jews. The rebelioun started after he tried to put statues in the great temple, and when jews came to ask him not to do so he gathered them up in the umphithatre in Ceasaria and then massacred them with his troops.

++++ The reference is to Jesus Christ, not Bar Kokva. The
Temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD when he took
Jerusalem after a long siege and burned the city.

>>> The jews took over the entire country. In the first 3 years the Romans were unable to retake it. Eventually they sent 12 legions under the command of the Syrian governer. He took over the country and 3 years later Mesada, the last jewish fortress, fell.

++++ Rome interdicted the study of law. And tried
to stamp out Jewish culture. To the Romans the culture was
a danger to the state. It climaxed in the Bar-Cochba rebellion
(135 ad)

>>> The Romans massacred over 30,000 jews before the rebelion and over 500,000 after they retook the country. They feared killing even more would spark another rebelion.

+++ No argument, The Romans wanted to stamp out
Judaism


>>> New? Jews were taken out of Israel 2 times before. Even after such a thing there are always jews left. Even after the Bar Kokva rebelion there were still jews in Israel.
The arabs came to Israel 500 years later and found a small jewish community and another small byzantyne christians community. They didn't come here slowly but as part of the armies of Muhamad and his successors.

++++ residence was made impossible for Jews, both by
rome and by the Church (Council of Nice 325 A.D.)
++++ Non Jews moved in, So they are not muslins yet.


>>> Jews were allowed to have military jobs as long as they don't get too powerfull (Dryfus).

+++ Middle ages here, not modern france. 1096-1555
edicts restricting jews in europe.

>>> And because of the Rotchild family that controled many buisnesses and was therefore thought to be a cover up of the world wide jewish conspiracy.

+++ Just an propaganda campaign to rip off & banish
Jews by the ruling class, it worked.

++++ The British offered the Jews a homeland in Kenya
on a plateau that was empty. The Zionist convention in
London rejected it. (Note this is not supported by the
source i will quote at the end of this, however the source
can be named, the library is closed Wednesday). This is a
Direct Quote "Zionism aimed to estabish a legally assured
home in Palestine".

>>> The jews came to Israel as it was an empty piece of land. The arabs lived in Several cities and in the mountains in the center of the country. The rest of the country was empty.

+++ No land is empty. it always belongs to someone.

>>>The British supported zionism only during WWI when they realized it would get them support from the jewish community (ie NILI)

++++ The British always supported zionism, Winston Chruchill
History of the second world war. They just didn't want to upset
the NATIVE Arab population.

>>>The British never said the arabs shouldn't have a country but that the jews should. It doesn't mean there can't be two countries at the same time.

+++ The British never said eithier group should have an
independent country, only the Jews should have a homeland.

>>>European jews didn't support the British. They did in order to get support from the jews in Israel. Balfour said jews should have a country but he never said arabs shouldn't.

+++ A Homeland, not a country

>>>Ofcource jews loved it. What people wouldn't be happy to have the support of an empire in his struggle for freedom? Even though, the declaration was never reallt followed. The British gave jews a country because they had no better choice and not because of idealism.

++++ The British always supported zionism, Winston Chruchill
History of the second world war. They just didn't want to upset
the NATIVE Arab population.

>>>The ottoman empire was dead before the war started. Many nations rose from it's areas in europe while in the middle east people fought against them for years before the war.

+++ No argument with this >>> statement

>>>I don't think anyone expected the British or the French to leave the area. They took over. It was theirs. The idea of illigal occupation was started after WWII by the UN.

+++ No argument with this >>> statement

>>>Very wrong. Not only that the British didn't airlift jews to Israel (something I doubt was even possible at the time), they banned them from getting in by any means. Jews got to Israel illigaly. The arabs were anfry because the British wouldn't kick all jews from their country.

++++ The British always supported zionism, Winston Chruchill
History of the second world war. They just didn't want to upset
the NATIVE Arab population. The statement is " but if they started airlifting massive numbers of Jews into Palestine the local Arabs would riot" not they did.

>>>He said the jews were sub humans that anything they do must cause damage to the other humans.

+++ No argument with this >>> statement

>>>Israel was under great danger. There were even plans to rebuild Mesada in order to resist the Nazis if they'll take over Israel.

+++ No argument with this >>> statement, the whole world
was in danger.

Reference
Encyclopedia Americana

Author of Entry

William Rosenau
Professor Emeritus of Post bibicial Hebrew
John hopkins University
and
Rabbi of Congregation Cheb Shalom,
Baltimore, Md.
 
Originally posted by Ozz

As you saw, G-Man completely disproved every paragraph of that review and no one here yet managed to disprove his disprovements.

I never accepted G-mans theories as facts. I knew you and
he wouldn't accept mine, so i simply used your own words
and admissions to prove my points.

You made a fool out of your self because you said that a completely biased (and proven biased) review is not biased and is well written.

The article is well written but the writer based it on the wrong facts and got to the wrong conclusions. I can personaly guarentee you everything I said there was facts. Not theories or ideas, it was all 100% facts.
 
Jesus didn't cause an uprising, only 'conventions' and uniting of jews.
 
Originally posted by Ozz
++++ No they were disputing with the Hellenic Population
(Greeks), before the coming of Rome. Religious & political
hostiliites amoungest themselves allowed Rome to become
arbiter, then Rome assumed dictatorship.

>>> I ment under the Roman rule. In the time of Hordus and the first Roman rulers the province was very quiet.

++++ The reference is to Jesus Christ, not Bar Kokva. The
Temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD when he took
Jerusalem after a long siege and burned the city.

>>> There wasn't any uprising under Jesus's leadership. The temple was destroyed in the great rebellion.

++++ Rome interdicted the study of law. And tried
to stamp out Jewish culture. To the Romans the culture was
a danger to the state. It climaxed in the Bar-Cochba rebellion
(135 ad)

>>> The Bar Kokva rebelion was a result of Romans slaughtering jews after a jewish rebellion in Rome in the year 115. However, I don't see what it has to do with what I wrote.

++++ residence was made impossible for Jews, both by
rome and by the Church (Council of Nice 325 A.D.)
++++ Non Jews moved in, So they are not muslins yet.

>>> Jewsdeism was also illigal in Spain and England for long period of times but there were still jewish communities there. Ever since the escape from Egypt there has always been jews in Israel.The arabs were in Saudi untill muhamad's war.

+++ Middle ages here, not modern france. 1096-1555
edicts restricting jews in europe.

>>> No necessarily. Jews did get into high positions in many cases but were then stopped using antisemitism. I used it as an example but there are dozens of cases when jews got to powerfull.


++++ The British offered the Jews a homeland in Kenya
on a plateau that was empty. The Zionist convention in
London rejected it. (Note this is not supported by the
source i will quote at the end of this, however the source
can be named, the library is closed Wednesday). This is a
Direct Quote "Zionism aimed to estabish a legally assured
home in Palestine".

>>> They offered us many places. The fact is that no place was empty. Palestine was the best because it wasn't very populated (60,000 people living on the land that today contains 8 million) and because it had the holy places to jewdeism.

+++ No land is empty. it always belongs to someone.

>>> The coast line had two very small cities. The valleys weren't farmed. There were small arab settlments but except the jedea mountains there wasn't any significant arab presence.

++++ The British always supported zionism, Winston Chruchill
History of the second world war. They just didn't want to upset
the NATIVE Arab population.

>>> And the oil they had... In WWII zionist movements again helped the British and so again gave them a reason to support them but it was always a support as a need and not as an ideology.

+++ The British never said eithier group should have an
independent country, only the Jews should have a homeland.

>>> They also gave similar statements to the Palestinians only on a local scale.

+++ A Homeland, not a country

>>> A country, not a free country. What they hoped was to make the entire areas into simingly free countries (as they did with Egypt) under their control.

++++ The British always supported zionism, Winston Chruchill
History of the second world war. They just didn't want to upset
the NATIVE Arab population. The statement is " but if they started airlifting massive numbers of Jews into Palestine the local Arabs would riot" not they did.

>>>Very wrong. Not only that the British didn't airlift jews to Israel (something I doubt was even possible at the time), they banned them from getting in by any means. Jews got to Israel illigaly. The arabs were angry because the British wouldn't kick all jews from their country and so they rioted.

+++ No argument with this >>> statement

>>> It wasn't a statement.

+++ No argument with this >>> statement, the whole world
was in danger.

>>> It wasn't a statement. There really were such plans.
 
Originally posted by Adebisi
I could psot rebuttals to G-Man's nitpicking too, but frankly, it's too much effort to prove something obvious. I already said there were factual errors in it, the ones I pointed out in my previous post. Other than that, the article gives a good picture of the history of Israel.

>>> A good twisted picture of the history. Do proove me the obvious that the British flew jews into Israel.

Most of the comments are silly, such as "They only attacked Hizbollah targets" (Aint that pretty freaking obvious?) and "The Palestinians are in refugee camps only cause Arabs put them there".

I have better things to waste my time one.

Ozz - thanks. G-Man clearly misunderstood several paragraphs. The article refers to Jesus of Nasaret in the beginning, for example.

>>>Then it's just another thing he was wrong about. One of many.
 
@ goodbye_mr_bond: thank your for the very informative posts.

I think they point out the REAL problem here: everybody agrees on the 'facts' (well, maybe some nit-picking, but...), but we disagree on the INTERPRETATION of those facts. Words are incredibly powerful tools, especially when used by the skilled. Particularly in the Middle East these days (but by no means exclusively there!), facts and rumor get jumbled together to make new 'facts', which which a skillful orator/wordsmith can use to inflame the passions the side of his choice. And you will never convince their followers that there may be any 'untruth' to what they believe, because they can point to the facts that support their belief.

While I support Israel and its right to self-defense, the arguments of G-Man and IceBlaZe have had a decided negative impact on me.
 
Top Bottom