Do tell the history behind the Holy Land

[Ozz]

My last post to this thread

Thanks, Adebisi

When I wrote that i was only furfilling my word. I didn't expect
anything but abuse. A thanks makes it worthwhile.

After this thread I am more than ever convinced of my middle
eastern policy (What should Israel do, Apr 13 4:55)

Shalom

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

You're welcome, Padma. But all I did was cut and paste some relevant words of wisdom. Those posts were lifted directly from one of the sources AoA suggests right at the beginning of this thread (the second one, I believe).

Nevertheless, it seems that--sadly--those most in need of understanding their meaning have not yet done so. The following quote by G-Man makes that quite clear:

I can personaly guarentee you everything I said there was facts. Not theories or ideas, it was all 100% facts.

Originally posted by Padma
While I support Israel and its right to self-defense, the arguments of G-Man and IceBlaZe have had a decided negative impact on me.

Yes, and I doubt you are the only one. Those of us--especially in North America--who have suddenly been forced to come to terms with the situation in the Middle East, and who genuinely want to help, are finding ourselves bombarded by (at least) 50 years' accumulated propaganda from both sides.

If another way is not found, and soon, of talking about Israel and Palestine, the concerned citizenry of the world will back off once again and begin to worry about more solveable issues, like famines and dictators.

So, without putting too fine a line on it, ENOUGH of trying to prove you are right and they are wrong! We don't CARE who blew up whom in 1956! We care about reaching a peace now. And that's going to take some forgiving AND FORGETTING on both sides. This point-counterpoint crap is infantile and counter-productive, and I for one am not going to get drawn into it.

IceBlaZe wrote:

Still waiting for someone to prove G-Man wrong

Keep waiting. In the end, you'll either be 100% right or 100% dead. And if I may say so without sounding too ominous, let me remind you that, so far in history at least, no one is recognized as having been 100% right.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Yes, and I doubt you are the only one. Those of us--especially in North America--who have suddenly been forced to come to terms with the situation in the Middle East, and who genuinely want to help, are finding ourselves bombarded by (at least) 50 years' accumulated propaganda from both sides.

If another way is not found, and soon, of talking about Israel and Palestine, the concerned citizenry of the world will back off once again and begin to worry about more solveable issues, like famines and dictators.

So, without putting too fine a line on it, ENOUGH of trying to prove you are right and they are wrong! We don't CARE who blew up whom in 1956! We care about reaching a peace now. And that's going to take some forgiving AND FORGETTING on both sides. This point-counterpoint crap is infantile and counter-productive, and I for one am not going to get drawn into it.

Do you hold the magic formula for peace g_m_b?
It's not about forgetting, Israel already forgot 1947, 1967 and 1973. Its about trying to achieve peace.
Israel tried to achieve peace, but with all of the wise posts by you here, no one is answering the real question.
How should we achieve peace?
Israel offered practically the whole world in camp david and they refused. do you blame Israel for defending itself when the palestiniens turn to violence?
violence is only stopped by violence.
peace is only achieved on a cease fire.
so far the palestiniens failed to follow any of the cease fires.
so what do you want Israel to do ? stand still while dozens of our citizens die?

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by Padma
@ goodbye_mr_bond: thank your for the very informative posts.

, the arguments of G-Man and IceBlaZe have had a decided negative impact on me.

*Warning, after several posts of quiet, purely emotional rant mode is on*
Why? I at least found G-Man's arguments on the facts to be quite correct, and don't see why people don't like them. And what is with the double standard of yelling at G-Man without really contradicting his tales, while ignoring stupid unsupported statements from Ozz comparing Israeli's policies to Nazi's, with terrms like facism and the Secret Police Mossad. I found this far more ridiculous than G-Man's arguments.

And goodbye_mr_bond, partially you are right, in that truth has been twisted by both sides. But it seems to me your only response to this is to take the easy way out, say both sides are at fault, and that both sides need to forgive. I don't mean to seem all pissy, but duh! I think this is what people want, but nobody ever offers anything.

It's easy to condemn both sides and gloat in our own moral superiority, while offering vague statements like forgiveness. It's harder to actually look at these issues that will actual decide what happens.

*rant mode off, flame protection on and powered up *

 

[Padma]

Well, PinkyGen, you won't get flamed by me, anyway.

Perhaps I should have mentioned the Palestinian Propaganda Posts. But they did not sway me to their side at all. I thought their mistakes and overblown rehtoric was obvious. What bothered me was seeing the side I want to agree with doing the same thing.

I am not good enough to be able to separate in my mind all the different ME threads. So I am sure I was thinking of statements made by our 'local' Israelis on other threads as well as in this one.

I cannot dispute their facts, because they are facts. But the interpretation, or spin they put on those facts is off-putting. For instance, there are 20-30 bodies of civilians found in Jenin. Is this a massacre? To IceBlaZe and G-Man, I would say it is not. For me, I need more facts. Were they innocent civilians lined up and shot? Then Yes. Were they assisting terrorists in attacking the IDF and/or caught in the crossfire? Then No.

I'm not saying I am any better than they. I'm sure I would do the same defending my country.

I wish I DID have an answer to the problems over there. It's like a game of 'chicken', waiting to see who will blink first. Until that happens, I think GMB is right, and the world will just say "to h*** with them. After they blow each other up, THEN we'll come back and help pick up the pieces."

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by Padma
Well, PinkyGen, you won't get flamed by me, anyway.
I cannot dispute their facts, because they are facts. But the interpretation, or spin they put on those facts is off-putting. For instance, there are 20-30 bodies of civilians found in Jenin. Is this a massacre? To IceBlaZe and G-Man, I would say it is not. For me, I need more facts. Were they innocent civilians lined up and shot? Then Yes. Were they assisting terrorists in attacking the IDF and/or caught in the crossfire? Then No.

Posted by IceBlaZe at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=253153&t=5348#post253153
5. Define 'Massacre'. Do you have any proof Israeli intentionally killed civilians? All of your proof is an article in BBC news that itself contains no proof, or some body cuonts. Body counts are never a measure for massacre, only the intention of the army is. Its amazing that all the civilian casualties and bodies, are blamed on Israel, while the palestinien terrorists shot rounds, were a lot less precise than the israeli army, and dynamite rigged houses.

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Do you hold the magic formula for peace g_m_b?

There is no magic formula for peace. If it seemed that I was implying that, I apologize. I realize it's a complicated situation that requires much balanced thought.

I just don't think that both sides repeating their cases over and over like some mantra, trying to prove through body-counts and sneak-attacks who's been hardest done by, is useful in the least. I understand that Isreal is angered and frustrated. I understand that Palestine is too. Both have pretty strong cases in my opinion, and I want to help find a solution if I can.

But this barrage of "100% true" facts from both sides is doing nothing but frustrating me--and others besides. And what is the point, really? You already have our sympathy for the situation you are in. We WANT to help.

Of course, if what you want is to convert me to your side--which is the only conclusion I can draw from this type of argument--then forget it. I refuse take a side on this. There are enough people on either side. What we need are more people in between.

It's not about forgetting, Israel already forgot 1947, 1967 and 1973.

Do you sense any irony at all in the above statement?

Look, no offense intended, IceBlaZe, but I don't believe that you are seriously looking for peace. You're just angry. Yes, you have justification--but the fact that it's justified doesn't make anger any more useful.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by goodbye_mr_bond

Look, no offense intended, IceBlaZe, but I don't believe that you are seriously looking for peace. You're just angry. Yes, you have justification--but the fact that it's justified doesn't make anger any more useful.

Me or Israel?
In both cases you are very wrong.
You only assume we are not looking for peace because we defend ourselves.
Something about your posts I find strange (no offense intended).

I just don't think that both sides repeating their cases over and over like some mantra, trying to prove through body-counts and sneak-attacks who's been hardest done by, is useful in the least. I understand that Isreal is angered and frustrated. I understand that Palestine is too. Both have pretty strong cases in my opinion, and I want to help find a solution if I can.

Actually when the European governments threaten me economically and with embargos when I defend myself,
When the UN says that I am racist only because I support my country, when the european governments incourage arafat and his terror regime, yes it is about that.
It is about getting world wide support for your actions.

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
You only assume we are not looking for peace because we defend ourselves.

You are making the assumptions here. I'm saying that you, IceBlaZe--and yes, possibly Israel in general--is not looking for peace because you are currently too angry to do so. I'm not implying you have never sought peace. I'm saying that, right now, and by these means (using rhetoric to prove that your side is more justified than the other), that is not what you're doing. Period.

Next,

The European governments threaten you because you are defending yourself?

The UN says you are racist only because you support your country?

European governments encourage Arafat and terrorism?

It is about getting world wide support for your actions.

Okay, then. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Originally posted by goodbye_mr_bond


The European governments threaten you because you are defending yourself?

>>> European Union threatened Israel with a Trade Embargo/s on the face of the defensive operation in the west bank.

The UN says you are racist only because you support your country?

>>> UN Resolution in 1997 declaring Zionism is racism. Almost the same thing happened in Durban, south africa, 2001.

European governments encourage Arafat and terrorism?

>>> The EU still funds arafat's manipulative education. I know of at least one research and complaint about that education handed to the EU asking them to take action against the type of education Arafat's education system implies using EU money.
And arafat does use his money and the PA money recieved from all these kinds of donations to buy illegal weapons and to fund his own military wing, the Al Akza Martyrs.

Don't you think it would help if arafat's education was not so manipulating?
Don't you think it would help if Europe would seriously pressure arafat to crack down on terrorists and to stop funding terrorirsm instead of one-sidedly threatening Israel with Trade Embargos?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
It is about getting world wide support for your actions.

Well, I'll wish you good luck too but personally, I don't really care anymore which side is whiter than white. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are condemnable. This, fr an East Asian.

 

[philippe]

i think that israel will never get peace if they keep destroying palistine houses.
I dont think that a palitian will be so forgivving if you destroyed his house with all his children in it.
and israeli will also not so forgivving when there is again asuicidal attack
dont you dare to forget that the last good prime minister
RABIN was killed by a israeli
rabin and arafat where on the edge of peace and then that israeli kills him.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by philippe
i think that israel will never get peace if they keep destroying palistine houses.
I dont think that a palitian will be so forgivving if you destroyed his house with all his children in it.
and israeli will also not so forgivving when there is again asuicidal attack
dont you dare to forget that the last good prime minister
RABIN was killed by a israeli
rabin and arafat where on the edge of peace and then that israeli kills him.

Rabin wasn't close to a final agreement. The only PM that was was Barak. Barak offered the Palestinians more then Rabin did. Then the Palestinians started the intifada. Not because we destroyed their houses or because we killed them but because Israel wanted Arafat to declare a final peace argeement and the PA will recognize Israel as a country. You're also forgeting that while Israel didn't forgive the suicide bombers it also didn't retaliate for a long time and even when it retaliated it made several one sided cease fires.


"It is about getting world wide support for your actions."

That's pretty much sums it up. The main problem today is that Arafat won't stop terrorism. Israel offered him many times to make a cease fire and even made one sided cease fires. The problem is that Arafat's interest, as a dictator, is to rule as long as he can. As long as he knows he won't be killed or kicked out he'll continue with his acts. As long as the international community won't recognize Arafat as a terrorists Israel won't be able to do these things and so the Palestinians will continue to attack and Israel will continue to retaliate. You can't make peace when one side wants war and untill the world will decide to truly fight terrorism the PA leadership wouldn't want peace.

 

[philippe]

i will post a quote from sharon he said a year ago

i believe that i can make peace because i know the cruelty of war.i fought in all wars en lost my best friend in combat.thats why i understand the eager for peace bether than the politicians who talk about peace,but never had a war

welll sharon you also understand th eager for peace from the palistians
well
close
a
peacepact
everyone wants peace
if you kill arafat he will be a martyr
so arafat must be eliminated in another way......
well arafat screw you
NUKE ARAFAT!

 

[G-Man]

And then it won't be a massacre... "We didn't know there were civilians within 100km from his HQ".

Anyway the most popular idea today for peace is actually Sharon's. The idea is to make an Israeli-American-Palestinian-Arab peace summit that will include representatives from:
Israel, the US, the PA, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and Maroco. Sharon already agreed to be in such a summit, even if Arafat will also be there. Even though, it will probably be a foreign ministers summit in order to avoid deciding whether Arafat should go there or not.

 

[philippe]

Originally posted by G-Man
And then it won't be a massacre... "We didn't know there were civilians within 100km from his HQ".

Anyway the most popular idea today for peace is actually Sharon's. The idea is to make an Israeli-American-Palestinian-Arab peace summit that will include representatives from:
Israel, the US, the PA, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and Maroco. Sharon already agreed to be in such a summit, even if Arafat will also be there. Even though, it will probably be a foreign ministers summit in order to avoid deciding whether Arafat should go there or not.

hey i only heard it from israeli
i just want to know how a palistine would think(if he can think)
about this
well i would kidnap arafat en shave his beard of and i would take his diper and throw it away
and than asking ransom
a territory map+tech suicide bombing+1 gold per turn+all your cities
for arafat and unlimited peace
palistine respondk its highway robbery but we will take it